Concerning the War of Aggression against C&G

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Letum' date='04 March 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1267732272' post='2213911']
That is not factually accurate:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79847&st=0
[/quote]

You're right, look at everyone who stood with them....

I mean, yeah sure they declared was part of teh \m/ war... Im just having a hard time determining which part, letum. Grub wasn't too explicit on that front. That is, if we are going to use Grubs appraisal of their situation.

Edited March 4, 2010 by tamerlane

[Letum]

[quote name='tamerlane' date='04 March 2010 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1267732760' post='2213917']
You're right, look at everyone who stood with them....

I mean, yeah sure they declared was part of teh \m/ war, Im just haivng a hard time determining which part, letum. Grub wasn't too explicit on that front. That is, if we are going to use Grubs appraisal of their situation.
[/quote]

I'm not asking you to agree with him, I'm just pointing out that the view of it being part of Polar's war does in fact exist amongst some of the people that entered before the TOP strike. It's not only Grub too, it's a number of the other people that were fighting there and went on to re-enter after Jan 29th.

[flak attack]

[quote name='HalfEmpty' date='04 March 2010 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1267730994' post='2213890']
.-.. --- .-.. / .- - .... . -. ... / - .... .- - / .. ... / .- .-.. .-..
[/quote]
Oh my you're clever. Might as well go ahead and say "Lol athens that is all", since we have the internet and all.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Letum' date='04 March 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1267733577' post='2213932']
I'm not asking you to agree with him, I'm just pointing out that the view of it being part of Polar's war does in fact exist amongst some of the people that entered before the TOP strike. It's not only Grub too, it's a number of the other people that were fighting there and went on to re-enter after Jan 29th.
[/quote]

My measurement was more or less made based on the alliances that joined TOP after the surrenders/redeployment.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='lebubu' date='04 March 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1267717539' post='2213696']
MK has raided hundreds of nations, many of them aligned. Not once did we [i]go[/i] after someone.
[/quote]
Actually, this is not true, but it was a long time ago. Not since you were in the Unjust Path anyway.

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='04 March 2010 - 11:52 AM' timestamp='1267721789' post='2213755']
Okay now you're just being silly. Although the TPF war wasn't really justifiable it was a lot closer to it than the War on Peace.
[/quote]
At least GPA had in fact attempted to bully LSF around, which was why some of the alliances were there.

And the CB, which was mostly all about aiding GOONS IC, was a whole lot better than "We don't like TPF, so we're going to use some OOC dispute between their current leader and someone in a protectorate to fabricate a CB, hoping to get everyone we don't like to defend TPF in order to crush them all."

[HalfEmpty]

[quote name='flak attack' date='04 March 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1267733623' post='2213934']
Oh my you're clever. Might as well go ahead and say "Lol athens that is all", since we have the internet and all.
[/quote]

The mutt from Melmac didn't need the internet, he read it with his ear.

[Bob]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='03 March 2010 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1267667893' post='2213187']
In the MK [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=32875&st=20]peace terms thread[/url], before it was locked, there are three people complaining about the size of the reparations and zero complaining about the other terms, so I think there's some convenient rewriting of history going on in this thread where people are saying that the reps weren't draconian after all, now you want to extort similar proportions from other people. Yes, the other terms made it worse, though you're happy to impose terms like that as well (see the NPO terms), but the primary complaint back then was the size of the reps (possibly along with the nuclear first strike term).
[/quote]
I assume you were in the backchannels, and know what the members of both MK and GR were the most upset about as well. I believe the reparations for GR were a worry , but the forced disbandment of our wonders was the memberships main problem with it. Also, the Can of crisco. I can't speak for MK, as I obviously was not a member of their alliance.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[AirMe]

EDIT: Major edit for clarity

These are 2 incidents in the course of a month where TOP attempted to exploit a situation to come after C&G. You can't deny that. It is documented, and some how you (others not Mhawk or TPF) are trying to paint C&G as the aggressive ones here? Seriously? WTH use your heads!

This conflict has been one blunder by another by the non-C&G side just like Karma was. Incompetence and ignorance has never been an excuse before on Planet Bob and I don't think anyone is going to make an exception for TOP and co. because they were foolish enough to do what they have done.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Given the track record and history here, it is VERY logical to assume TOP would come back a third time if they were given white peace here. Some of you need to get your heads out of your $@! and look at the facts.

Edited March 4, 2010 by AirMe

[Haflinger]

AirMe, sorry... but your argument makes no sense. The attack on TPF was a transparent attempt to set up IRON (among others), who were expected to defend TPF, and it was launched by a C&G alliance. If you want to argue that it justifies TOP's belief that C&G was coming for them and IRON, well that'd make more sense.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='04 March 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1267735645' post='2213961']
AirMe, sorry... but your argument makes no sense. The attack on TPF was a transparent attempt to set up IRON (among others), who were expected to defend TPF, and it was launched by a C&G alliance. If you want to argue that it justifies TOP's belief that C&G was coming for them and IRON, well that'd make more sense.
[/quote]

Yes I realize that and that is why I made the edit. I guess instead of my original point I was trying to make, I morphed it into: There is a track record with TOP coming after C&G.

[Letum]

[quote name='AirMe' date='04 March 2010 - 08:46 PM' timestamp='1267735803' post='2213962']
Yes I realize that and that is why I made the edit. I guess instead of my original point I was trying to make, I morphed it into: There is a track record with TOP coming after C&G.
[/quote]

Trying to use the TPF war as "proof" of a track record of TOP coming after CnG is quite a bit of a stretch.

[Trace]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='04 March 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1267735645' post='2213961']
AirMe, sorry... but your argument makes no sense. The attack on TPF was a transparent attempt to set up IRON (among others), who were expected to defend TPF, and it was launched by a C&G alliance. If you want to argue that it justifies TOP's belief that C&G was coming for them and IRON, well that'd make more sense.
[/quote]

Ahahaha. Do you really believe the stuff that comes out of your mouth? Oh man. Priceless.

[Drai]

[quote name='Letum' date='04 March 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1267736791' post='2213978']
Trying to use the TPF war as "proof" of a track record of TOP coming after CnG is quite a bit of a stretch.
[/quote]
I think anything that Haflinger wrote is a bigger stretch tbqh. The whole setting up IRON is hilarious.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Drai

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='AirMe' date='04 March 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1267735803' post='2213962']
Yes I realize that and that is why I made the edit. I guess instead of my original point I was trying to make, I morphed it into: There is a track record with TOP coming after C&G.
[/quote]


I'm still not quite sure where you are seeing the track record. In Karma TOP could have very easily thrown their weight and pushed to throw the weight of their allies behind NPO and used that as a very convenient pretense to crush C&G. They also pushed for white peace in the TPF War instead of escalation (I provided logs earlier in this thread I believe where LM myself and several others were debating how the TPF war should proceed regarding escalation and reparations, I can find them again if you wish). In addition, C&G white peacing out after a week of war would have been a dream scenario in this conflict (this was when we were planning prior to the BiPolar affair). Having IRON/TOP get in quickly, deal some damage to C&G so that they pulled out and then the rest of the fronts of the war could have been swiftly brought to a close would have been the ideal situation and what we wanted, a multi-month long protracted slugfest between SuperComplaints and the NpO coalition wasn't anything that anyone wanted at least on our side. To give a brief comment on the "TOP did/did not declare their war to support Polar and did/did not do it to kill C&G", at least the way that I read it is that they came in to support Polars side (a point enuncianted 3 times in the DoW) and basically as an added perk they got to fight guys they didn't like. Comparable to say if there was a school yard brawl, and some of your friends were getting pounded on so you decided "hey I'm gonna back them up" and then you noticed that one of the guys on the other side was the kid who threatened to knock you out last week and you're pleased because you "finally give that $@! what he deserves" whilst aiding your friends. Now, I'm not saying that it was deserved, I have many friends in TOP/IRON, but I also hold a great respect for many on the C&G side and think that the pre-emptive strike was a misstep certainly, but thats just my interpretive take on the TOP DoW.

[Letum]

[quote name='Drai' date='04 March 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1267737228' post='2213982']
I think anything that Haflinger wrote is a bigger stretch tbqh. The whole setting up IRON is hilarious.
[/quote]

The difference is that if you replaced CnG with NPO, TPF with OV and IRON with VE, that argument would be supported by many people on your side. Airme's argument would make no sense no matter who you substituted in it.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Letum' date='04 March 2010 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1267736791' post='2213978']
Trying to use the TPF war as "proof" of a track record of TOP coming after CnG is quite a bit of a stretch.
[/quote]

Really? you should have been around for the last days of the Citadel, we had it all. Cowards, malcontents, conspiracies, members of CnG elevated to status of genius based on thier ability to manipulate massive alliances, it was grand really. The whole time TOP was shouting the loudest that CnG were coming for them, when in truth (as this war is clear evidence) TOP was always gunning for CnG. While the track record may not be a long one (years) its certinaly not a stretch to proclaim the battle plan was in place for a long time to hit CnG, it was always a matter of timing and how the sides would fall. At least since TPF anyway.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='AirMe' date='04 March 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1267734426' post='2213947']
EDIT: Major edit for clarity

These are 2 incidents in the course of a month where TOP attempted to exploit a situation to come after C&G. You can't deny that. It is documented, and some how you (others not Mhawk or TPF) are trying to paint C&G as the aggressive ones here? Seriously? WTH use your heads!

This conflict has been one blunder by another by the non-C&G side just like Karma was. Incompetence and ignorance has never been an excuse before on Planet Bob and I don't think anyone is going to make an exception for TOP and co. because they were foolish enough to do what they have done.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Given the track record and history here, it is VERY logical to assume TOP would come back a third time if they were given white peace here. Some of you need to get your heads out of your $@! and look at the facts.
[/quote]
That is stupid. The TPF War as an attempt at doing away with the "Hegemony Remnants" once and for all. TOP only got involved because IRON was going to get dragged in. Hell, I don't even like TPF, nor did I hold a grudge against C&G (but boy howdy did they get gleeful at the thought of taking us out), but I got involved because we were not going to leave IRON out in the cold.

Painting the TPF War as some aggressive move by TOP to take out CnG is absurd on its face.

Fool me once, shame...shame on you. Fool me-I can't get fooled again.

EDIT FOR CLARITY: Not necessarily even saying the TPF War was all a plot to set up IRON, I think you grabbed at any CB you could find to hit SOMEONE, and if any of TPF's allies came in, all the better.

Edited March 4, 2010 by bigwoody

[Chickenzilla]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='04 March 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1267735645' post='2213961']
AirMe, sorry... but your argument makes no sense. The attack on TPF was a transparent attempt to set up IRON (among others), who were expected to defend TPF, and it was launched by a C&G alliance. If you want to argue that it justifies TOP's belief that C&G was coming for them and IRON, well that'd make more sense.
[/quote]
Sir our plot to set up IRON has failed.

[Lord Fingolfin]

I always feel so unloved when people skip over my posts in their responses, I'm not sure whether to take it as a personal slight or simply because you can't refute what I have to say. In any case, I will concede that saying the TPF War was some dastardly plot to ensnare IRON is a bit of a stretch.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='04 March 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1267739912' post='2214046']
I always feel so unloved when people skip over my posts in their responses, I'm not sure whether to take it as a personal slight or simply because you can't refute what I have to say. In any case, I will concede that saying the TPF War was some dastardly plot to ensnare IRON is a bit of a stretch.
[/quote]

It failed!? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rocky Horror]

Remember when we came up with this plan just before GWII? That was great. Never would've expected it to go so well.

Planting people in IRON to change their independence doctrine was a masterstroke.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Rocky Horror

[Azhrei]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='04 March 2010 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1267735645' post='2213961']AirMe, sorry... but your argument makes no sense. The attack on TPF was a transparent attempt to set up IRON (among others), who were expected to defend TPF, and it was launched by a C&G alliance. If you want to argue that it justifies TOP's belief that C&G was coming for them and IRON, well that'd make more sense.[/quote]

What the hell are you smoking, and can I have some? I mean, goddamn. There are stupid posts, and then there ones like this. Rampant paranoia and delusions abound! I know, I know, back when we learned about TPF's attempt to infiltrate and destroy Athens, our first thought was, "Oh boy, is this a good way to set up IRON or what? Hallelujah!".

Wtf.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' date='04 March 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1267740636' post='2214066']
Remember when we came up with this plan just before GWII? That was great. Never would've expected it to go so well.

Planting people in IRON to change their independence doctrine was a masterstroke.
[/quote]
You fool! This was all a NAAC setup! That's why Polar acted so weird!

[Floyd]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='04 March 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1267737359' post='2213984']
I'm still not quite sure where you are seeing the track record. In Karma TOP could have very easily thrown their weight and pushed to throw the weight of their allies behind NPO and used that as a very convenient pretense to crush C&G. They also pushed for white peace in the TPF War instead of escalation (I provided logs earlier in this thread I believe where LM myself and several others were debating how the TPF war should proceed regarding escalation and reparations, I can find them again if you wish). In addition, C&G white peacing out after a week of war would have been a dream scenario in this conflict (this was when we were planning prior to the BiPolar affair). Having IRON/TOP get in quickly, deal some damage to C&G so that they pulled out and then the rest of the fronts of the war could have been swiftly brought to a close would have been the ideal situation and what we wanted, a multi-month long protracted slugfest between SuperComplaints and the NpO coalition wasn't anything that anyone wanted at least on our side. To give a brief comment on the "TOP did/did not declare their war to support Polar and did/did not do it to kill C&G", at least the way that I read it is that they came in to support Polars side (a point enuncianted 3 times in the DoW) and basically as an added perk they got to fight guys they didn't like. Comparable to say if there was a school yard brawl, and some of your friends were getting pounded on so you decided "hey I'm gonna back them up" and then you noticed that one of the guys on the other side was the kid who threatened to knock you out last week and you're pleased because you "finally give that $@! what he deserves" whilst aiding your friends. Now, I'm not saying that it was deserved, I have many friends in TOP/IRON, but I also hold a great respect for many on the C&G side and think that the pre-emptive strike was a misstep certainly, but thats just my interpretive take on the TOP DoW.
[/quote]


[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='04 March 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1267739912' post='2214046']
I always feel so unloved when people skip over my posts in their responses, I'm not sure whether to take it as a personal slight or simply because you can't refute what I have to say. In any case, I will concede that saying the TPF War was some dastardly plot to ensnare IRON is a bit of a stretch.
[/quote]

In Karma if TOP would of backed NPO it would not of fared well for them and the added bonus of NPO pissing TOP off in the negotiations of you know attacking in the middle of them. Here is the key difference between TOP and C&G in regards to what happens in the fight, TOP instead of pushing for white peace in the initial conflict had instead formulated a hilarious stratagy of delaying the entrance in the TPF war until LM could get back. While C&G was trying to push for peace in the Polar Crusade on both sides to get it resolved on both sides of the fence. While TOP was using a delaying tactic C&G was pushing for peace to get our friends to stop fighting.

The reason why people skipped over your reply was the hilarity of it. Your analogy is a bit off. Instead it would be similar to this, if there was a school yard brawl and some of your friends are getting pounded on so you decided "hey I'm gonna back them up" and then you notice that one of the guys on the sidelines trying to calm both sides down was the same guy that had a bit of a swagger in his step in the hall and then you get pleased because you "finally get to knock that kid down a few pegs" while under the pretense of aiding your friends, because certainly he would just about to swing a punch while trying to get the whole thing resolved amirite.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Azhrei' date='04 March 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1267740750' post='2214070']
What the hell are you smoking, and can I have some? I mean, goddamn. There are stupid posts, and then there ones like this. Rampant paranoia and delusions abound! I know, I know, back when we learned about TPF's attempt to infiltrate and destroy Athens, our first thought was, "Oh boy, is this a good way to set up IRON or what? Hallelujah!".
[/quote]
Do you guys really believe what Zero Hour told you?

Admittedly, I'm working on the assumption here that you're intelligent enough to see the giant mountain of OOC grudge and realize that they might not be the most reliable of witnesses.