Darth Blitzer Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='NemaK' date='11 February 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1265949815' post='2176588'] Misinterpretation on Sparta's side, not our's. [/quote] Gee and i wonder who sent them mixed messages that led Sparta to thinking that Legion had accepted peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joracy Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Imperial' date='11 February 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1265946635' post='2176372'] As a subordinate government officer to the Imperator, I proceeded as directed by the Imperator to attend the peace negotiations with Sparta. During the course of said peace discussions, an internal veto of the Imperator's decisions was begun. Final signatures were never provided to Sparta or its allies. Unfortunately I could not issue our final signatures to Sparta with the pending veto action looming. [/quote] This seems to be the important post of the thread. But seriously, instead of saying everything was fine, you were acting under Hubbs authority, you could have at some point mentioned this was going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander thrawn Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Sulmar' date='12 February 2010 - 04:41 AM' timestamp='1265949711' post='2176580'] Like I pointed out before, the next article also states that the Consulate needs to approve any war declarations, and in keeping with this, it would only make sense for them to have to approve peace as well. [/quote] [quote]D: The Imperator has the ability to declare war, or obtain peace, based on the Legion's current active treaties. [b]Only in the most dire of situations, with the most convicting evidence against another alliance, may the Imperator declare an aggressive war.[/b] E: The Consulate are the deciding body on the definition of a "dire or warranted" situation. A vote can be called by any Consul asking for evidence that warrants war, or an explanation as to why war was called. A 3/4 majority vote will determine whether war is warranted or not.[/quote] Looks to me, that only applies if we are talking an offensive war declaration that the Consulate challenges. There is nothing about peace in part E. It makes sense that they would have to approve war declarations as that could easily be detrimental to the alliance, but agreement to a white peace? That is just nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucasSnow Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I commend you guys for defending your allies, as it is the honorable thing to do. But; you really need to work out the kinks in your government. First you want peace, then it's off, then we have white peace, but wait we don't. I hope you guys realize that after such developments we are pretty much never likely to offer any form of peace in this war without reps included now. White Peace was offered and denied twice, it may have been because of mishap in your government, but that's not our problem, prepare for a long war. I'm no government, and this is not an official statement saying White Peace is off the table, I'm just a realist, and I can put 1 and 2 together and it always equals 3. It's pretty obvious to me that this will be the result of this fiasco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEd Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='mitchh' date='12 February 2010 - 04:39 AM' timestamp='1265949577' post='2176572'] The Imperator (Hubb) is the chief executive. The Consulate consists of four other offices. Combined, the Imperator and Consulate vote on treaties, requiring majority for it to pass. The Imperator and Consulate have signed peace agreements jointly in the past, so take that as you will. As an answer to your question, I'd venture that the Imperator 'runs' the alliance, with each office performing their respective alliances. No one person is really in charge. [/quote] Sure, I get that. However, according to [i]their[/i] Charter, which is their law, not ours--- "D: The Imperator has the ability to declare war, or obtain peace, based on the Legion's current active treaties. Only in the most dire of situations, with the most convicting evidence against another alliance, may the Imperator declare an aggressive war." This points to the prior signed, [s]not signed[/s], surrender terms pretty valid. I still cant get it through my head how the Imperator of an alliance would allow an inferior ranking Cabinet/Council member conduct negotiations when it's clear that they had different intentions and even worse, weren't on the same page when it came to the well-fare of their alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnar Griffin Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Sulmar' date='11 February 2010 - 11:45 PM' timestamp='1265949928' post='2176598'] It could be argued that Part E is referring to all wars, in that it says that they have the ability to call a vote to see whether a war is warranted or not. Regardless, in keeping with the spirit of The Legion's charter, it is obvious that the Consulate is supposed to have some say in matters regarding the alliance; so for the Imperator to just declare peace on his own would be breaking the spirit if not the text of their charter. [/quote] Sulmar, the problem is, this isn't about our Charter. The fact is our government did not sign off on our terms, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Sulmar' date='12 February 2010 - 04:41 AM' timestamp='1265949711' post='2176580'] Like I pointed out before, the next article also states that the Consulate needs to approve any war declarations, and in keeping with this, it would only make sense for them to have to approve peace as well. [/quote] In the matter of constitutions and charters, unless designated the broad authority (which in this case they are not) or the specific authority (which in this case they are not) you don't assume that they have an unlisted power because it would "keep with it", particularly in the light of the fact that the matter of making peace is specifically delegated to another branch of the government (which in this case, was the person who agreed). In all, the mention of war in the consulate article is simply another method of issuing a declaration, and nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinite Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) [quote name='mitchh' date='11 February 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1265949682' post='2176579'] I must have missed the contradicting statements from the various gov members. Could you direct me to them? All I've seen is logs of Hubb vaguely agreeing to white peace, and Fingolfin denying that this was the intended message. None of which I would call contradicting, as I haven't seen Hubb consent that he definitively agreed to a white peace. [/quote] How about the OP [quote]My authority was in turn overruled this evening by our Imperator, and we were ordered to seek white peace.[/quote] That's where we were, and where Legion's MoFA was when peace was agreed on. Edited February 12, 2010 by Trinite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 o/ Legion You must be doing something right if they're so eager to remove you from the conflict they would forge your signatures. Nicely done and keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnar Griffin Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Trinite' date='11 February 2010 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1265950055' post='2176610'] How about the OP That's where we were, and where Legion's MoFA was when peace was agreed on. [/quote] Seeking doesn't mean the decision was actually made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justavictim82 Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Caliph' date='11 February 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1265947105' post='2176417'] I do too. I love how Karma is hypocritical because they said that they will give white peace to everyone in every war during Karma and after Karma. oh wait ... [/quote] I'd be willing to bet [OOC] 50 tech [/OOC] that TOP and IRON do not get white peace. And even if they do, It will be after C&G turns them into a parking lot. Not saying what they did was right or wrong... but I am just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchh Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='KingEd' date='11 February 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1265950029' post='2176607'] Sure, I get that. However, according to [i]their[/i] Charter, which is their law, not ours--- "D: The Imperator has the ability to declare war, or obtain peace, based on the Legion's current active treaties. Only in the most dire of situations, with the most convicting evidence against another alliance, may the Imperator declare an aggressive war." This points to the prior signed, [s]not signed[/s], surrender terms pretty valid. I still cant get it through my head how the Imperator of an alliance would allow an inferior ranking Cabinet/Council member conduct negotiations when it's clear that they had different intentions and even worse, weren't on the same page when it came to the well-fare of their alliance. [/quote] Correct. Which is why they get to interpret whether Hubbs supposed consent could be vetoed. How they run their government is mandated by their charter, not foreign entities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amonra Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Wow, the depths you guys will sink to is astounding. Faked signatures, really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindom of Goon Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Gunnar Griffin' date='12 February 2010 - 04:49 AM' timestamp='1265950148' post='2176613'] Seeking doesn't mean the decision was actually made. [/quote] Imperial said the decision was made. You guys should probably stop posting and work out among yourselves what you're doing. Edited February 12, 2010 by Kindom of Goon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I just... Wow. Why are you going to peace talks when you're losing a war and you aren't willing to accept the most basic of terms? I suggest you get your house in order, Legion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiCkO Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 its pretty simple if you ask me, our gov asked us if we wanted to surrender after hearing about a possible peace offer, as such, they started a veto which was going to pass. Sparta decided to post it anyway without our permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnar Griffin Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I think most of CN wants to see the logs where Legion "accepted" their terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnar Griffin Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Kindom of Goon' date='11 February 2010 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1265950346' post='2176627'] Imperial said the decision was made. [/quote] Logs buddy, logs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='11 February 2010 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1265950043' post='2176609'] In the matter of constitutions and charters, unless designated the broad authority (which in this case they are not) or the specific authority (which in this case they are not) you don't assume that they have an unlisted power because it would "keep with it", particularly in the light of the fact that the matter of making peace is specifically delegated to another branch of the government (which in this case, was the person who agreed). In all, the mention of war in the consulate article is simply another method of issuing a declaration, and nothing more. [/quote] Impero, Please Stop being an idiot. I can't take so much idiocy in one day. Seriously though, VE is getting butt wooped and you're here trolling. I have tried avoiding this but damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehChron Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='12 February 2010 - 04:24 AM' timestamp='1265948670' post='2176519'] Yes, like I said before, a future charter amendment so this does not happen in the future would probably be wise, as this just plain is not the type of decision that can be vetoed as a matter of practicality. [/quote] No, it can be, according to their charter. You can't E-lawyer using vague concepts of how an absolute leader works. It's ridiculous to even try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcurley Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 facepalm legion. Looks like sparta was being reasonable and your leader recognized that. This is just embarrassing to you my legion brothers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulmar Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Gunnar Griffin' date='11 February 2010 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1265950040' post='2176608'] Sulmar, the problem is, this isn't about our Charter. The fact is our government did not sign off on our terms, period. [/quote] Yeah, I get that. I was just pointing out that it probably wouldn't be legit anyways. Suggestion though, clean up your war powers articles, they are confusing and hard to interpret. [quote] In the matter of constitutions and charters, unless designated the broad authority (which in this case they are not) or the specific authority (which in this case they are not) you don't assume that they have an unlisted power because it would "keep with it", particularly in the light of the fact that the matter of making peace is specifically delegated to another branch of the government (which in this case, was the person who agreed). In all, the mention of war in the consulate article is simply another method of issuing a declaration, and nothing more.[/quote] Constitutions and charters are also always up for interpretation with the wording of the text. Indeed, the [ooc]U.S. Supreme Court[/ooc] is set up to do just that, interpret the [ooc]U.S. Constitution[/ooc] as the Founders meant for it to be. While a discussion of judicial activism or judicial restrain could be warranted, it seems to me on Planet Bob we most always go by the intent rather than the actual wording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiCkO Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='kpcurley' date='11 February 2010 - 08:54 PM' timestamp='1265950468' post='2176637'] facepalm legion. Looks like sparta was being reasonable and your leader recognized that. This is just embarrassing to you my legion brothers. [/quote] we dont leave friends behind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President S O Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 lol fake signatures. At least they got them right, didn't they? Best of luck in dealing with this Legion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindom of Goon Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Gunnar Griffin' date='12 February 2010 - 04:53 AM' timestamp='1265950394' post='2176631'] Logs buddy, logs. [/quote] Logs of what? He said it himself earlier in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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