Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[boscher]

I expect Polaris will be the last alliance to sign any form op peace treaty.

[Tick1]

[quote name='Chalaskan' date='02 February 2010 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1265098349' post='2152824']
The convenience of this is somewhat ironic... or not
[/quote]

If CnG wanted to hit NpO, don't you think they'd have let FoB/Athens declare on them when PC joined into the fray? I mean how ignorant can you be? I thought people in TOP where top notch players, but maybe you eluded the application process.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 11:08 AM' timestamp='1265126933' post='2153246']
Never mind the fact that FARK was going to vote on giving them peace, what kind of logic is that to attack GOD? The alliance that had offered peace and was working together with NSO to get them peace from all their wars? Where is their support of MK, an alliance that wasn't even fighting?

You're being blissfully ignorant here bob.
[/quote]
You're blissfully ignorant if you think Fark was going to give IRON peace. I don't think even GOD claimed to be trying to get peace for IRON. The alliances fighting IRON have no intention of letting them surrender or get peace for a long time.

[Haven for Peace]

Pssft. Prepare to lose.

[Jens of the desert]

You guys deserve to burn right about now, polaris.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Angrator' date='02 February 2010 - 11:19 AM' timestamp='1265127590' post='2153267']
That's news to me.



Ah yes, I'm sure if he contacted them things would have been settled easily. Opps! My bombs went where?!?



It's as simple as sometimes people simply need to pick a side. As regrettable as it may be, sometimes you have to pick the best of two bad options. Polar was put in a bad position. Everyone but you apparently can see that.
[/quote]


[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1265127814' post='2153275']
You're blissfully ignorant if you think Fark was going to give IRON peace. I don't think even GOD claimed to be trying to get peace for IRON. The alliances fighting IRON have no intention of letting them surrender or get peace for a long time.
[/quote]

Really?

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='02 February 2010 - 02:46 AM' timestamp='1265096767' post='2152786']
I want to make it clear that FARK never shot the idea of peace, to do so requires the approval of their Council which was not given time to vote on the matter. FARK does not run like GOD or NSO does, and I stressed this in the talks. It sounds like you guys got the wrong impression, I just wish you'd have actually talked to me considering it was LintWad and myself putting in all the work.

For the uninvolved, the total list of alliances who would've peaced at the same time under what we were working out were the following:

Everyone: Quantum, UPN, MA, Alchemy, TTK, Invicta, TYR, LOUD, Hydra, NSO, CSN, RIA, CD, ICB, GO, FOK, SNAFU, Corp, and BAPS

I already had signatures from Alchemy, Quantum, Invicta, TTK, SoL, RIA, SNAFU, MA, TYR, LOUD, Corp, CSN, UPN and Hydra.

The agreement stipulated that it wouldn't be valid until all parties signed, so that no one left an ally behind. An honest effort was being made and I was furious when I signed on to see the redeclaration on FARK and the premature posting of the agreement. I don't think NSO faulted us any for not trying after that point; reinstating with an MADP partner speaks for itself.

[/quote]

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='EViL0nE' date='02 February 2010 - 10:24 AM' timestamp='1265124260' post='2153188']
Why, then, did your boss feel the need to issue a separate Declaration of War? For the NSO, it may feel like the same war, since they jumped into the second before trying to tie up loose ends for the first. For everyone else, things have been slightly different. I admire your willingness to stick with your friends, but call it was it is.
[/quote]
Sigh. Really?

The only difference that would exist today beyond what existed prior to my [i]counter[/i] declaration against Fark is that instead of it being Fark/GOD versus NSO it would be Fark/GOD versus NSO/CD/ICB. I didn't want Carpe Diem and Brengstlau fighting on our behalf against overwhelming odds considering that the option for peace didn't seem realistic. That is the only difference. If I had not issued the counter Fark and GOD would still be at war with NSO so what is the difference aside from the semantic argument that I have put forth regarding excising my allies from the conflict?

The revisionism usually waits until the war is over. Pretending that GOD and Fark didn't declare on NSO and that my counter did anything except prevent my allies from facing the same fate I now face is preposterous.

To those continuing to comment on how peace was offered, if white peace was offered between NSO and Fark then they apparently forgot to inform the Fark government and they sure as Hell didn't inform NSO. I find it ridiculous that anyone would claim that peace was on the table between two parties that were not even involved in the process. Yes, GOD and NSO worked out a white peace deal, but it was dependent on Fark doing the same, which they didn't.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Ivan Moldavi

[mike717]

This had to be an incredibly difficult decision to come to, Polaris. I understand that sometimes there isn't a right decision, there's only the path that you feel you have to take.

I hope the path you have chosen is at least scenic, because i have a feeling none of your alternative routes (including this one) were going to take you to a place you actually wanted to go.

o/ Polaris

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1265128116' post='2153284']
Really?
[/quote]
Do you see IRON in that list?

Everyone: Quantum, UPN, MA, Alchemy, TTK, Invicta, TYR, LOUD, Hydra, NSO, CSN, RIA, CD, ICB, GO, FOK, SNAFU, Corp, and BAPS

I don't.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1265128226' post='2153289']
Do you see IRON in that list?

Everyone: Quantum, UPN, MA, Alchemy, TTK, Invicta, TYR, LOUD, Hydra, NSO, CSN, RIA, CD, ICB, GO, FOK, SNAFU, Corp, and BAPS

I don't.
[/quote]

So grub came back to support support NSO's support of IRON's attack against grub's allies. Great priorities.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1265128226' post='2153289']
Do you see IRON in that list?

Everyone: Quantum, UPN, MA, Alchemy, TTK, Invicta, TYR, LOUD, Hydra, NSO, CSN, RIA, CD, ICB, GO, FOK, SNAFU, Corp, and BAPS

I don't.
[/quote]
To be fair, IRON declared an offensive war against alliances that were not directly involved in the conflict against the wishes and advice of their allies in NSO.

They did so with the knowledge that NSO would not realistically, considering the odds set against it at the time, be able to render any material or military aid in their endeavor. We wish them well but I do not hold any misconceptions on what occured.

The NSO never joined to be in a crusade or to see any other alliance or bloc destroyed.

[Tick1]

[quote name='Fireandthepassion' date='02 February 2010 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1265101283' post='2152861']
I'm so tired of seeing this argument about treaty obligations to the point that it's time for it to be debunked. Why didn't Rok cancel their treaty when \m/ threw a racial slur at Grub that killed all attempts at diplomacy? We should all know well enough that you can't talk to or yell at \m/ they wont change their ways; which is why no one in Polaris or Polaris' allies believed that \m/ apology. Where was MK when FOK escalated, props to FOK I hold nothing against FOK for them declaring on Polaris, on an oA clause? Was MK ever in the military organization channel established for the war effort on \m/, pc, and FOK? No. I can't say if MK ever offered assistance as I don't know if they did or did not, but considering how the general membership of MK treats their allies in Polaris; I'm going with no they didn't. Had MK been anywhere near Polaris on this side TOP would be no where near Polar and telling Polar that TOP was specifically aimed at c&g. No matter what Grub would have said TOP would have still fought c&g preemptive strike or declaring in defense of someone on c&g alliances.

So please stop ignoring all the points because whats done is done. Now just move on because the posts berating Polaris as bad allies add nothing because there's a lot more that could be said about certain alliances that are allied to Polaris.
[/quote]

I guess you forgot that Vanguard is treated to FOK, or maybe you thought that was irrelevant. Either way this still comes down to the fact that you guys put CnG in a difficult position which is why the members within CnG decided to stay neutral, or leave. Although they may have berated your beliefs because you attempted to enforce them on a frivolous matter, is that really a reason to put them down because they didn't split CnG apart at the request of NpO? To say MK/GR should have came to the aid of NpO is to also say that Athens/FoB should have went to the aid of PC. Continuing this argument like I have been for the past three hours! NpO should have never put CnG in a position such as this and expected MK/GR to come to their aid.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1265128376' post='2153296']
So grub came back to support support NSO's support of IRON's attack against grub's allies. Great priorities.
[/quote]
You are purposefully misinterpreting the events. I know you are better at understanding than this.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1265128376' post='2153296']
So grub came back to support support NSO's support of IRON's attack against grub's allies. Great priorities.
[/quote]

NSO isn't leaving IRON behind. NpO isn't leaving NSO behind.

Common sense, please try to use it in the future.

Edited February 2, 2010 by astronaut jones

[James I]

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='02 February 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1265127354' post='2153263']
One treaty too many? Are you sure it was only one, and not maybe 5 or 6?
[/quote]
Yeah, both Polar and the Mushroom Kingdom are suffering from seeing their friends split to different "sides" like this. It sucks.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='02 February 2010 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1265128486' post='2153302']
NSO isn't leaving IRON behind. NpO isn't leaving NSO behind.

Common sense, please try to use it in the future.
[/quote]
But they will leave the allies that were attacked unprovoked behind. Gotcha.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='02 February 2010 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1265128452' post='2153301']
You are purposefully misinterpreting the events. I know you are better at understanding than this.
[/quote]

I know you don't want to leave IRON behind, and I'm glad you're willing to fight however you can for them. That being said I am just disappointed with how Grub handled it as I believe there was a solid chance of peace for NSO without having to barge in without talking to all the parties involved.

[HeinousOne]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='02 February 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1265126785' post='2153242']
One

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Foreign_Article_5

Two

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Harmlins
[/quote]


Well done, you have shown that such exists in the world but what you havn't done is shown how it is relevant to the situation at hand. Here we have two examples of such so that anyone could pick it up and follow it with their own alliance relationships but that is not the case here. In fact it goes even farther, some of the affected alliances in this have relationships like those you list above with other alliances and thus show that they list their allies in a pseudo-hierarchy of importance just like how those in the two above agreements would also have to do due to the fact that none of their other relations state such a closeness. So just like how the above parties in the two agreements cannot expect their other allies to treat them in the same way as the other signatory to such a pact of brotherhood then neither can a bloc put the expectations on an alliance lower in their pyramid treaty structure that they would put on an alliance near the top of their pyramid treaty structure.

It will only lead to continued disappointment to put equal expectations on alliances that you do not give equal respect and value as per the wording of the individual treaties.

Now I realize you were just trying to one up me with that knowledge and you did indeed do such. This was just an expansion on that as to show that the existance of such shows that such does not exist between the alliances relevant to this situation.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='03 February 2010 - 02:06 AM' timestamp='1265126787' post='2153243']
There is no need for speculation. Grub decided to fight an alliance that already offered and was working towards a joint peace with NSO. He didn't fight the alliance that was the one "not offering peace." He didn't even contact the alliances to find out why they weren't offering peace. And worst of all, he is still not defending his treaty partner in MK.

I don't even see how you can properly spin that.
[/quote]
We have a strong reason to support an ally who recently came to our aid by returning the favour in kind. And that I think is the best of all possible reasons to go to war.

[HeinousOne]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1265128588' post='2153309']
But they will leave the allies that were attacked unprovoked behind. Gotcha.
[/quote]

Has MK requested such help? Do they not already have a much larger coalition against TOP and friends?

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='02 February 2010 - 08:33 AM' timestamp='1265128393' post='2153297']
To be fair, IRON declared an offensive war against alliances that were not directly involved in the conflict against the wishes and advice of their allies in NSO.

They did so with the knowledge that NSO would not realistically, considering the odds set against it at the time, be able to render any material or military aid in their endeavor. We wish them well but I do not hold any misconceptions on what occured.

The NSO never joined to be in a crusade or to see any other alliance or bloc destroyed.
[/quote]

If only Grub was anything like you, this whole mess could've been averted entirely weeks ago. Lawdy lawd.

[Angrator]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1265128659' post='2153310']
I know you don't want to leave IRON behind, and I'm glad you're willing to fight however you can for them. That being said I am just disappointed with how Grub handled it as I believe there was a solid chance of peace for NSO without having to barge in without talking to all the parties involved.
[/quote]
Oh well. You "believe" there was a solid chance for peace. Why could we have possibly stayed in this fight? Sorry, but unfortunately we can't take your lollypops and candycanes to the bank. We're in this fight until our allies are out. Period.

[Gn0xious Jr]

you did what you felt was best.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='HeinousOne' date='02 February 2010 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1265129000' post='2153320']
Has MK requested such help? Do they not already have a much larger coalition against TOP and friends?
[/quote]
Should they need to? Does an MDP not obligate Polaris to defend? Could you point me to the wording in the treaty between NpO and MK or NpO and GR where it states that the defense clause is only activated if the defending party explicitly requests assistance?

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='02 February 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1265128898' post='2153317']
We have a strong reason to support an ally who recently came to our aid by returning the favour in kind. And that I think is the best of all possible reasons to go to war.
[/quote]

Yes. That doesn't address how badly he went about it though considering the other venues available to him. He went to war again against another ally of his ally without even the courtesy of talking to the person he attacked beforehand. Heck, the one he attacked was the one brokering for peace with NSO, not the alliance that was holding up the peace talks. Don't brand this as "just helping blah blah" when he had a much better way and target to go about his goal.