Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Zessa]

[quote name='LordAkanata' date='02 February 2010 - 02:30 AM' timestamp='1265095835' post='2152741']
This. Here's hoping for a peaceful resolution to the current mess.
[/quote]
Plenty of white peace sounds good to me.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='02 February 2010 - 01:35 AM' timestamp='1265096127' post='2152755']
Your logic would make sense if the was just NSO-GOD peace talks but it involved others as well.
[/quote]
GOD can give white peace to whomever they please, they don't need Fark's permission.

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='02 February 2010 - 01:35 AM' timestamp='1265096127' post='2152755']
And as I've also said before Polar attacking like this does not help NSO's withdraw from the war.
[/quote]
Doesn't it?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='KaitlinK' date='02 February 2010 - 02:10 AM' timestamp='1265094646' post='2152685']
Wait, I lied I have way more to say and anyone that wants to point out to me that we are still allies I would be happy to graphically describe where you can shove it.

You attacked an ally of ours not once but twice in as many weeks. Now we dont ask that you sit around the campfire and sing songs with our friends but you damn well could show some respect out of consideration for an alliance you claim to be friends with.
Grub, you had options if you wanted NSO out either you were too lazy find them or your intent was to disrespect Ragnarok.
Either way my original statement stands... I am embarassed to call you my ally.
[/quote]
MAMABEAR KILLLLLLLLL!!!!!

[quote name='Starfox101' date='02 February 2010 - 02:20 AM' timestamp='1265095221' post='2152722']
Heh, so you cowered your way out of the war, and then slithered back in.

You really are a snake, Grub.
[/quote]
[i]"in the grass"[/i] You have to say in the grass and make it funny and insulting.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='02 February 2010 - 07:35 AM' timestamp='1265096127' post='2152755']
Your logic would make sense if the was just NSO-GOD peace talks but it involved others as well.
As I've said GOD where prepared to give white peace to NSO and it would have been given in time once all parties involved had agreed.

And as I've also said before Polar attacking like this does not help NSO's withdraw from the war.
[/quote]
Read Ivan's posts. Please.

Repeating the same line of ignorance isn't going to make it suddenly true. Fact of the matter is, GOD's white peace was dependent upon FARK peaceing out with us. FARK told us there would be no peace for us. Therefore, there was no peace.

For the love of admin, get a damn clue.[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='02 February 2010 - 07:38 AM' timestamp='1265096303' post='2152766']
How long before Moldavi swallows his pride? From my understanding that's one of the things holding up the works.
[/quote]
Then your understanding is hilarious wrong.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Chron

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

[quote name='HeinousOne' date='02 February 2010 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1265095363' post='2152727']
I guess you guys are just taking too long. There wouldn't have been any form of stalling taking place with this would there?[/quote]
That I know of, there is not. From what we've been hearing, NSO was offered white peace and rejected it. Whether this is true or not, we are now putting to scrutiny, and are redoubling our efforts in that front.

[quote name='Tick1' date='02 February 2010 - 02:28 AM' timestamp='1265095717' post='2152736']
By MK/GR I also did include CnG into that, but I may have misused the term considering the context of the previous post.

Last I checked \m/ is tied via(MDoAP) PC whom is tied via MDoAP Athens and FoB. Which out of any given honesty I can state that the members that left FoB would have declared in regards of PC within a heart beat, but to [b]respect[/b] the opinions of CnG members we instead left our respective alliance. which I can also state that none of the members from FoB that have joined PC have or will return to FoB. NpO in terms put CnG in a bad position by attacking one of CnG's allies. Yes I'm considering CnG as a whole someone shoot me. Anyhow this all could have been avoided by NpO following the request of MK and not attacking \m/ considering their ties to the CnG bloc which is an MADP. So when FoB would have declared upon NpO they would have brought all of CnG in behind them, but out of respect for our allies we left our alliance. Which brings me to the conclusion that there was no need for TOP/Cit to attack CnG considering the fact that CnG prevented members within FoB from declaring on NpO. To think otherwise is complete blasphemy.
[/quote]
I think Tick1 hits upon the very important point of CnG disunity in this regard. Both Athens and FoB, via their treaty ties, were very much supportive of \m/ and PC's side of the war. Both Vanguard and MK were generally unwilling to go to war, due to intersecting ties, and GR membership was (and still is, we still value our relationship with Polar very highly) adamantly against going to war any side against Polar. I cannot speak for =LOST= or ODN in this regard.

[HeinousOne]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='02 February 2010 - 07:38 AM' timestamp='1265096292' post='2152765']
Directly, but indirectly is fine too.
[/quote]

Well directly, probably not that much except for stats but indirectly the Polar campaign has had a massive affect but we havnt seen the largest of those yet.

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='02 February 2010 - 07:38 AM' timestamp='1265096303' post='2152766']
How long before Moldavi swallows his pride? From my understanding that's one of the things holding up the works.
[/quote]

That is a very ambiguous statement. What you might consider him being to prideful is simply him unwilling to sign any unacceptable terms. I am sorry you are going to have to be more descriptive otherwise I am going to possibly assume you didn't get the entire truth into those two short sentences.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Tolkien' date='02 February 2010 - 07:40 AM' timestamp='1265096404' post='2152773']
That I know of, there is not. From what we've been hearing, NSO was offered white peace and rejected it. Whether this is true or not, we are now putting to scrutiny, and are redoubling our efforts in that front.

[/quote]
There's a need for scrutiny on common knowledge? Fascinating how something that's already been known to be true can suddenly be cast into doubt just because you don't know what you're talking about.

[quote name='SupremePrince' date='02 February 2010 - 07:04 AM' timestamp='1265094291' post='2152660']


To our allies in NSO: I'm disappointed that you guys thought we were going to leave you out to dry. You should know better.
[/quote]
Haha, right.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

[quote name='HeinousOne' date='02 February 2010 - 02:42 AM' timestamp='1265096533' post='2152778']
That is a very ambiguous statement. What you might consider him being to prideful is simply him unwilling to sign any unacceptable terms. I am sorry you are going to have to be more descriptive otherwise I am going to possibly assume you didn't get the entire truth into those two short sentences.
[/quote]
Again, I've been getting conflicted answers as to why there hasn't been peace for NSO yet. On the one hand, Ivan states that he was told he was not being offered peace, whereas on the other hand, I've been getting from SF that white peace was already accepted by all of SF except FARK (which was due to government voting or something), when Ivan declared war, in essence. I'm going to say that, likely, the truth is somewhere in between, and the picture is certainly incomplete. I can't make any assumptions, at the time.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Chron' date='02 February 2010 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1265096583' post='2152779']
Haha, right.
[/quote]

Citizens of NSO, please.

[Xiphosis]

I want to make it clear that FARK never shot the idea of peace, to do so requires the approval of their Council which was not given time to vote on the matter. FARK does not run like GOD or NSO does, and I stressed this in the talks. It sounds like you guys got the wrong impression, I just wish you'd have actually talked to me considering it was LintWad and myself putting in all the work.

For the uninvolved, the total list of alliances who would've peaced at the same time under what we were working out were the following:

Everyone: Quantum, UPN, MA, Alchemy, TTK, Invicta, TYR, LOUD, Hydra, NSO, CSN, RIA, CD, ICB, GO, FOK, SNAFU, Corp, and BAPS

I already had signatures from Alchemy, Quantum, Invicta, TTK, SoL, RIA, SNAFU, MA, TYR, LOUD, Corp, CSN, UPN and Hydra.

The agreement stipulated that it wouldn't be valid until all parties signed, so that no one left an ally behind. An honest effort was being made and I was furious when I signed on to see the redeclaration on FARK and the premature posting of the agreement. I don't think NSO faulted us any for not trying after that point; reinstating with an MADP partner speaks for itself.

I don't know what possessed the New Polar Order to do this, much less under these circumstances, but your members to the [i]last[/i] will have to live with this decision. The fundamental purpose of the alliance is to defend it's members, and you have hurt me and mine tonight. The decision will haunt you severely as long as GOD members exist on this game; as long as our friends and allies do.

To Archon, SirWilliam, Bob and numerous other MKers whom have vouched for Polar to me over the last few months - I am sincerely sorry to see you not vilified. We've not had a wish for war with Polar until they came knocking on Athen's door some months ago, and we were willing to temper it out of respect for CnG on the whole; despite the worrying (maddening) implications of them strong-arming Athens over internal policy with, of all people, TOP's backing.

I expressed then sincere doubts that Polar remained an ally to our side, but you assured me elsewise and maintained vigorously that they continued to be solid allies. When Frostbite dissolved in TPF, I took it as validation and ate my words, but with this war Polar has systematically destroyed all faith stemming from that overture, and it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say you were wrong.

One last note to NSO, more specifically to LintWad and Ivan who made an honest effort and kept it civil - thanks. You put the tools like Chron to shame.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='HeinousOne' date='02 February 2010 - 07:42 AM' timestamp='1265096533' post='2152778']
Well directly, probably not that much except for stats but indirectly the Polar campaign has had a massive affect but we havnt seen the largest of those yet.



That is a very ambiguous statement. What you might consider him being to prideful is simply him unwilling to sign any unacceptable terms. I am sorry you are going to have to be more descriptive otherwise I am going to possibly assume you didn't get the entire truth into those two short sentences.
[/quote]
Wrong, the correct answer is:

Directly: Absolutely nothing.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Tolkien' date='02 February 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1265096086' post='2152751']
You are being deliberately dense. Bluntly speaking, C&G is an MADP bloc, and as a result, supercedes any and all optional clauses in treaties, if need be. In this case, we had more then our share of treaty ties to both sides of the conflict, and it was pretty clear that it was going to escalate into a SF vs. Polar war, something which we empathically did not want, especially with the way internal treaties within CnG worked out. You are being deliberately obtuse when you lambast us for not activating an oA clause (because, Polar did attack \m/, whether we agreed with it or not), when it would've put us right smack dab in the middle of our allies' while they were trading fire. Certainly we could've declared on \m/, if that's what you mean. We could not, however, declare war on Poison Clan (they are tied to Athens). We could not attack FOK! or Stickmen, nor could we attack the supermajority of the alliances arrayed against Polar at the time, simply due to direct treaties (or secondary treaties). Our best option was to attempt to reconcile both sides, and hope the hubub died down before it escalated uncontrollably.

Tell me, when during Karma did any alliance preemptively declare war on a (at the time) neutral party? The last time I recall seeing a move of that nature was during the NoCB war, when Q preempted the entirety of BLEU. The similarity is striking, and the move is nonetheless as disgusting as it was then.

Now I ask: who are you and what business do you have with MK/GR-Polar relations? Does The Phoenix Federation have any direct ties with either parties, or have any vested interest or inside knowledge as to our relations, beyond what is posted in this mudslinging propaganda mill of a forum?
[/quote]


I merely point out the hypocrisy of many CnG members, especially MK. They immediately went into full blown trash NpO mode over their attack on the ally, of an ally, of an ally. Yet didn't really have anything to say to FOK, who attacked Polaris, their direct ally, via oA.


As for the last part of your statement..What I post has nothing to do with TPF's point of view on this, I am merely a grunt and not govt. And my business in this is the exact same as any other poster on here, this is a global conflict and my nation will most likely be affected. You can also throw in the fact that CnG members and \m/ very recently used a very sketchy CB to attack us without even attempting any diplomacy just to get what we have now, TOP/IRON at war.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

[quote name='Chron' date='02 February 2010 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1265096583' post='2152779']There's a need for scrutiny on common knowledge? Fascinating how something that's already been known to be true can suddenly be cast into doubt just because you don't know what you're talking about.[/quote]
If you insist, Chron. I suppose there isn't any point in discussing this further with you, as obviously, I know nothing.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='02 February 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1265096360' post='2152769']
GOD can give white peace to whomever they please, they don't need Fark's permission.


Doesn't it?
[/quote]

It is not about needing Fark's permission. It is about working together as a bloc.
But I guess making bloc's work isn't NpO's strong point is it? I'll forgive you for not understanding then.

Btw what did NpO think would happen when you attacked GOD?
That they would get scared and want to peace out with NSO quickly?
If so then you don't know GOD very well.

[LOLtex]

[quote name='SupremePrince' date='02 February 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1265094291' post='2152660']
To TOP and TOP's allies: I simply dislike you people. You doubted us and left us no time to explain. You went right ahead and call our emperor traitor and left no room for him to explain first. You had your own agenda yet you call Polar traitors and when we prove you wrong, you thought you could get away with some mindless hailing. We will remember this.
[/quote]

Fair enough, I'm not going to tell you who you can and cannot like. Not everyone in TOP doubted you, the ones that did not doubt did not feel the need to post. Our leaders told us to sit tight and hang on until everything is sorted, but others in TOP felt the need to vocalize their emotions in public (and then the same people hail you guys here, huge facepalm there). I agree with you, it's very embarrassing and not becoming of TOP. With that said, please do not take said previous posts as representative of alliance opinion, because quite frankly, they aren't. Good day.

[Mussolandia]

Your bloc must be very dysfunctional then.

EDIT: @ two posts above

Edited February 2, 2010 by Mussolandia

[Ivellios]

When murmur began to break out about NpO's abandoning us I said to wait and see the whole of it. NpO you have emerged and come to our aid and for that i salute you, because we are going to need the help =)

[NoFish]

[quote name='Mussolandia' date='02 February 2010 - 02:52 AM' timestamp='1265097135' post='2152797']
Your bloc must be very dysfunctional then.

EDIT: @ two posts above
[/quote]
YOu think it's dysfunctional that a bloc would want to wait to peace out until all members of it have agreed to peace? I think I'm getting a new understanding of why Frostbite didn't last...

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='02 February 2010 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1265096957' post='2152793']
It is not about needing Fark's permission. It is about working together as a bloc.
But I guess making bloc's work isn't NpO's strong point is it? I'll forgive you for not understanding then.
[/quote]

So when GOD declares it's about it being a bloc. And when GOD won't go ahead with white peace it's about being a bloc.

But when NpO declares on GOD the bloc goes out the window? It's not fair because GOD was a part of the bloc that was working towards white peace? What happened to the bloc?

Edited February 2, 2010 by Zombie Glaucon

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='02 February 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1265096875' post='2152790']
I merely point out the hypocrisy of many CnG members, especially MK. They immediately went into full blown trash NpO mode over their attack on the ally, of an ally, of an ally. Yet didn't really have anything to say to FOK, who attacked Polaris, their direct ally, via oA.


As for the last part of your statement..What I post has nothing to do with TPF's point of view on this, I am merely a grunt and not govt. And my business in this is the exact same as any other poster on here, this is a global conflict and my nation will most likely be affected. You can also throw in the fact that CnG members and \m/ very recently used a very sketchy CB to attack us without even attempting any diplomacy just to get what we have now, TOP/IRON at war.
[/quote]
You do understand that CnG is not some unified entity with the same opinions on everything, right? I know quite a few Athens and FoB members who were rabidly supportive of \m/: and neither alliance holds any treaty to the NpO. Generalizing what CnG thinks is bad, because the ones you should be looking at are MK and GR.

I sympathize, and agree with your opinion of the CB used in the WWE. It was crap. If you measured the frustration MK members had against Polar for putting us in this situation, multiply it by five or ten and you get the collective frustration of CnG during the whole Knights of Ni! and the recent WWE (vented in private).

[Yggdrazil]

Fark had all the time it takes for NpO to come out of nuclear anarchy.just how much time does it take to have given NSO peace.

[Mussolandia]

[quote name='NoFish' date='02 February 2010 - 07:53 AM' timestamp='1265097237' post='2152801']
YOu think it's dysfunctional that a bloc would want to wait to peace out until all members of it have agreed to peace? I think I'm getting a new understanding of why Frostbite didn't last...
[/quote]

I'm thinking more of the miscommunication and misunderstandings that have been exposed to the public about Fark's intentions with regards to peace with NSO and how that relates to the position GOD was put into. Something clearly failed there somewhere.

Frostbite didn't last in paper much, no, but it held through in spirit in this war.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

[quote name='Mussolandia' date='02 February 2010 - 02:52 AM' timestamp='1265097135' post='2152797']
Your bloc must be very dysfunctional then.

EDIT: @ two posts above
[/quote]
[s]Every bloc member can have it's own opinions and it's own treaties, no? We had strong disagreements during the prior war (or this war, whichever belief you ascribe to), but that is nothing more then the disagreements you get within an ordinary alliance over policy, only on a larger scale. At the end of the day, C&G rolls together, and that much is a given constant.[/s]

EDIT: nevermind. Ignore this post.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Tolkien

[D34th]

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='02 February 2010 - 04:46 AM' timestamp='1265096767' post='2152786']
The agreement stipulated that it wouldn't be valid until all parties signed, so that no one left an ally behind. An honest effort was being made and I was furious when I signed on to see the redeclaration on FARK and the premature posting of the agreement. I don't think NSO faulted us any for not trying after that point; reinstating with an MADP partner speaks for itself.
[/quote]

What's the difference of NSO redeclare agains FARK? They already stated that they did it to not oblige their allies in Terra Cota to defend them

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='02 February 2010 - 04:46 AM' timestamp='1265096767' post='2152786']
I don't know what possessed the New Polar Order to do this, much less under these circumstances, but your members to the [i]last[/i] will have to live with this decision. The fundamental purpose of the alliance is to defend it's members, and you have hurt me and mine tonight. The decision will haunt you severely as long as GOD members exist on this game; as long as our friends and allies do.
[/quote]

What possessed us? NSO are allied with us, you guys attacked them and then do not gave peace to them when our war ended, need more explanation?

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='02 February 2010 - 04:46 AM' timestamp='1265096767' post='2152786']
To Archon, SirWilliam, Bob and numerous other MKers whom have vouched for Polar to me over the last few months - I am sincerely sorry to see you not vilified. We've not had a wish for war with Polar until they came knocking on Athen's door some months ago, and we were willing to temper it out of respect for CnG on the whole; despite the worrying (maddening) implications of them strong-arming Athens over internal policy with, of all people, TOP's backing.

I expressed then sincere doubts that Polar remained an ally to our side, but you assured me elsewise and maintained vigorously that they continued to be solid allies. When Frostbite dissolved in TPF, I took it as validation and ate my words, but with this war Polar has systematically destroyed all faith stemming from that overture, and it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say you were wrong.
[/quote]

All I can read here is: See Mk we are better friends than NpO please cancel on them and be only friends with us.

Do you really need that to get friends? lol

[Mussolandia]

EDIT: original quoted post was edited, no need.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Mussolandia