Lord Razzia Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) Sooo let me get this straight. TOP and IRON attack C&G. The Harmlins decide to attack IRON (possibly through ICE). Then AFTER THAT, masses start Declaring on TOP. That right? Also, I see a sexy MDoAP... What are you gonna do Harmlins? Edited January 30, 2010 by Lord Razzia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Chill I Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Sooo let me get this straight. TOP and IRON attack C&G. The Harmlins decide to attack IRON because IRON attacked the Harmlins' friends You do have it straight. Go with Christ brah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) Syz for Prezident. Syz you are not considering a couple of things. Maybe we follow because we like where its going and because its fun. Despite what a lot of people will say Karma changed CN and the old Gre "politics" wasnt really suited for the new environment. So after this beat-down, what's next on the agenda? E: You could substitute the word "curbstomp" for "beat-down", if you prefer the CN lingo, I suppose. Edited January 30, 2010 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternos Astramora Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Go Syz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Chill I Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) So after this beat-down, what's next on the agenda? Foam party at WCR's place. RSVP for guest list spots. I hear LM is bringing the beer. Edited January 30, 2010 by King Chill I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Razzia Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 You do have it straight. Go with Christ brah. Friends huh? It looks like 1 friend, and it's Athens. >_> So since when are Friends > Treaties ??? I thought if anything Friends = Treaties, but not necessarily the other way around. Kind of like how multiplying matricies works. meh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Chill I Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) Friends huh? It looks like 1 friend, and it's Athens. >_> So since when are Friends > Treaties ??? I thought if anything Friends = Treaties, but not necessarily the other way around. Kind of like how multiplying matricies works. meh Indeed it is Athens, there is no one else in CnG we are close with. No one at all. We especially hate those $%&@ers in MK. Friends > Treaties since...well, ever. In our case since we dont have treaties anymore its Friends = Friends. Beat that. Edited January 30, 2010 by King Chill I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Indeed it is Athens, there is no one else in CnG we are close with. No one at all. We especially hate those $%&@ers in MK. Friends > Treaties since...well, ever. In our case since we dont have treaties anymore its Friends = Friends. Beat that. What is this nonsense about Athens and friends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Indeed it is Athens, there is no one else in CnG we are close with. No one at all. We especially hate those $%&@ers in MK. Friends > Treaties since...well, ever. In our case since we dont have treaties anymore its Friends = Friends. Beat that. Loved every second of this post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titus Pullo Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Loved every second of this post How many seconds did it take you to read it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Ladies and Gentlemen of Bob, It is time for the Harmlin to enter this fray. IRON and their minions have brought untoward aggression against our friends and the Harmlins shall see our way in to protect them. We are prepared to stand and fight among our many friends as they stand and fight for theirs. With that said, Harmlins have their towels ready and hereby declare war on IRON. Signed for MHA: Jadoo1989 - Triumvir Draden - Triumvir Pudge1975 - Triumvir Signed for GRE: RamirusMaximus - Judicator Synth_FG - Executor Matthew PK - Acting Praetor This is very lame, I fought IRON alongside you in the Karma War by choice despite TOP's treaty with them. TOP forgave both Gre and FCC for doing what we felt necessary at the time. Now when IRON is heavily outnumbered you choose to declare on them again with no real reason? Its hard to see this as anything other than jumping onto the winning side to get extra shots in on a former opponent you already settled peace with. I thought I'd see Gremlins use their freedom of not being so tied to the web to do good things.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ertyy Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 I thought I'd see Gremlins use their freedom of not being so tied to the web to do good things.. How did you make a connection between us going paperless and deciding to use what you think is good as our new FA direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titus Pullo Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 I thought I'd see Gremlins use their freedom of not being so tied to the web to do good things.. It's your lucky day, I have a bridge to sell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 How did you make a connection between us going paperless and deciding to use what you think is good as our new FA direction? To be more specific by what I meant by "good" is you wouldn't jump into wars your not involved with to join the side with the number advantage. I thought Gremlins were against that type of stuff, never saw you as the opportunist type. If you were going to do this why even give peace in the Karma War? I used to respect you guys more than any other alliance, yet now your hitting our ally when they are already heavily outnumbered and I don't even know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ertyy Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Methrage' date='30 January 2010 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1264909764' post='2146458'] To be more specific by what I meant by "good" is you wouldn't jump into wars your not involved with to join the side with the number advantage. I thought Gremlins were against that type of stuff, never saw you as the opportunist type. If you were going to do this why even give peace in the Karma War? I used to respect you guys more than any other alliance, yet now your hitting our ally when they are already heavily outnumbered and I don't even know why. [/quote] Peace is a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingClassRuler Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Methrage' date='31 January 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1264909764' post='2146458'] To be more specific by what I meant by "good" is you wouldn't jump into wars your not involved with to join the side with the number advantage. I thought Gremlins were against that type of stuff, never saw you as the opportunist type. If you were going to do this why even give peace in the Karma War? I used to respect you guys more than any other alliance, yet now your hitting our ally when they are already heavily outnumbered and I don't even know why. [/quote] That is the biggest load of guilt-trip !@#$%^&* I have ever heard. You attacked a weaker party without provocation, without defensive obligations, in order to opportunistically and aggressively strike them while their friends were tied up in another conflict. You started this mess, you dragged Härmlins in, you should be the one apologizing to us. And do not think for one second that anyone is going to fall for your hypocritical protestations. Edited January 31, 2010 by Working_Class_Ruler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallin Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Alexander Blade' date='30 January 2010 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1264846054' post='2144403'] You tell me, you're the one that seems to have all the knowledge of how this played out. In my eyes, you are nothing but bandwagoners. Harmlins saw a chance to exercise their power and they took it. And don't give me this #$*% about having paperless friends. [b]Treaties are treaties.[/b] Without them, the word 'friends' doesn't exist. Frankly, you're Harmlin Accords are a scam. You just use it as a conduit to help whoever you want, whenever you want, through MHA. Gre is a damn barnacle on the back of the whale that is now MHA. Nothing personal, but I have no respect for you anymore. [/quote] I think let's agree to disagree. I don't think we can change either point of view. Our intervention is based is based on the premise that our Gramlin brothers reserve the right to declare in defense of their friends,regardless of the presence of a written treaty. Your view is that any declaration or intervention has to based on a written, black and white treaty. While I might not agree with what you believe, I acknowledge that as a legitimate point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord GVChamp Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Working_Class_Ruler' date='30 January 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1264911742' post='2146533'] That is the biggest load of guilt-trip !@#$%^&* I have ever heard. You attacked a weaker party without provocation, without defensive obligations, in order to opportunistically and aggressively strike them while their friends were tied up in another conflict. You started this mess, you dragged Härmlins in, you should be the one apologizing to us. And do not think for one second that anyone is going to fall for your hypocritical protestations. [/quote] I am confused. You were dragged in? http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=46911 [quote] TOP/MHA MDP: MDP with TOP; total NS 30.8M, tension 1302 (88 per M NS) The Pan Galactic Souvlaki Accords: MDoAP with Sparta; total NS 28.4M, tension 1213 (82 per M NS) MHA-Fark MDoAP: MDoAP with Fark; total NS 25.8M, tension 1508 (102 per M NS) Härmlins: MDoAP with Gre; total NS 20.0M, tension 744 (50 per M NS) Umbrella-MHA MDP: MDP with Umb; total NS 19.4M, tension -125 (-8 per M NS) GO-MHA MDoAP: MDoAP with Guru; total NS 16.4M, tension 124 (8 per M NS) [/quote] Is this information outdated? None of these alliances are in Complaints and Grievances and none of them were attacked. Did you enter via [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Aqua_ICE"]this[/url] treaty? Perhaps via this section? [quote]Preamble: The undersigned alliances agree to this additional clause of Optional Aid and Defense. Article 1: Aid: [b]No signatory of this treaty is obligated to come to the monetary aid of another signatory of this treaty[/b]. However, should a signatory alliance request monetary aid, the other signatories are encouraged to consider the request. Article 2: Defense: [b]No signatory of this treaty is obligated to come to the defense of another signatory of this treaty[/b]. However, should a signatory alliance request defensive military assistance, the other signatory alliances are encouraged to consider it and may use this treaty as legal justification for entering a conflict at another signatory's defense.[/quote] You have a very interesting definition of "dragged in" from where I am standing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingClassRuler Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 (edited) Please, we've been over that earlier in the thread. Don't bring it up again like you're making some new point. It's been covered. Edit: Must. Not. Give. In. To. Stupidity. Edited January 31, 2010 by Working_Class_Ruler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord GVChamp Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Working_Class_Ruler' date='30 January 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1264913441' post='2146615'] Please, we've been over that earlier in the thread. Don't bring it up again like you're making some intelligent point, you're not. It's been covered. [/quote] I have read the thread. You are incorrect to the best of my knowledge. If your post [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2140734"]here[/url] is supposed to be your ultimate trump-card, I am quite confused: MK's MDPs "lead to" TOP through Umrbella. Is MK required to come to TOP's defense against Fark because the MDP chain "leads" to it? Is it [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2140992"]this[/url] response, where you respond with "While Gre no longer hold paper treaties, they were quite clear on who they remained friends with. MK are considered an ally of Härmlins"? And the follow-up post to the same effect [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2141542"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2141568"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2141586"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2141617"]here[/url]and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2144178"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2144344"]here[/url](which, for the record, is incorrect) and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2144391"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2144392"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2144410"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2145445"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2145807"]here[/url] ? I can [i]respect[/i] wanting to help your friends, but you are not under an [i]obligation[/i] to do so. Treaties are obligating: that's why they are made in the first place. Charters are obligating: that's why THEY are made. Gramlins was compelled by neither and therefore entered the war by choice, even if their conscience told them to join the fight. Now, just because Gramlins is now apparently run by a group of people who cannot determine what the word "obligated" means, much like how Ramirus can't figure out why a Manhattan Projects is a good ideaa, does not mean that the rest of us must abide by their silly redefinition of words and CN affairs. Gremlins has no treaties with Mushroom Kingdom. This means, under established CN norms [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54921"]WHICH YOUR OWN ALLIANCE FOLLOWS[/url], Gramlins has no legitimate casus belli in this conflict and is [i]bandwagoning[/i] on IRON with an aggressive declaration of war. MHA ITSELF may have ended getting involved against its will via MADP or some such, but Harmlins as an entity was not obligated. This is a war [i]of choice[/i]. Which means your statement that you were "dragged in" was incorrect. You may have decided this war was "your business" either through your friend being attacked or your ODP partner being attacked, but there was no legal reason compelling you to do so. And legal reasons are the only way you can "dragged in." Following your conscience, as your allies have so eloquently described, is freedom. FREEDOM, not OBLIGATION, which means you cannot be dragged in. Obligation is the VE charter telling me I cannot attack people unless the Lord of VE declares war. Freedom is me going nuke rogue on people I don't like. On the other hand, you can keep being condescending. That seems to be working out great for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avernite Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Working_Class_Ruler' date='31 January 2010 - 05:22 AM' timestamp='1264911742' post='2146533'] That is the biggest load of guilt-trip !@#$%^&* I have ever heard. You attacked a weaker party without provocation, without defensive obligations, in order to opportunistically and aggressively strike them while their friends were tied up in another conflict. You started this mess, you dragged Härmlins in, you should be the one apologizing to us. And do not think for one second that anyone is going to fall for your hypocritical protestations. [/quote] C&G was actually not really a weaker party, statistically. Unless of course we were just supporting NpO, in which case our opposition was weaker than we were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fallin Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='31 January 2010 - 06:02 AM' timestamp='1264917746' post='2146882'] This is a war [i]of choice[/i]. [/quote] Thats the whole point of paperless FA isn't it? Having the freedom and choice of when and where to intervene. Our Gramlin brothers chose to defend a former MDP partner, MK, despite not being treaty-obligated to so. Its something that they made entirely clear even before the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1a Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Good to fight with you again Harmlins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingClassRuler Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 I know I shouldn't be condescending but it's bit hard when you're repeating yourself for the umpteenth time. I said that we were dragged in. Those were my words. TOP and IRON declared an Offensive War, without provocation, against our friends and Aqua allies who were uninvolved at the time. There are multiple lines from us to CnG, including a direct line from Härmlins to MK, and thus we were dragged in. I do think we (just MHA) have treaty obligations here - albeit chained ones - as well as friendship, but regardless of the multiple reasons why we've defended our friends, my point was actually not about treaty obligations, it was about TOP and IRON's actions. Had they not declared on CnG, we probably wouldn't be in this fight. Regardless of which side we ended up on, it was their action of declaring an Offensive War against uninvolved parties that lead to our involvement, that's what I meant by them dragging us in. In regards to official obligations, apart from treaties and friendship, it does say in our Charter that we will defend Aqua alliances. Aqua is our home and our way of life, so even if we ignore the Härmlins-MK friendship, or multiple lines from MHA to CnG, or even Aqua ICE Defense Pact, MHA had a dog in this fight the moment IRON and TOP declared on our Aqua brothers. It is our written legal Code of Conduct to help defend Aqua. Your last point seems to be enforcing a legal code on us, on behalf of Planet Bob, when none such exists. Grämlins made it quite clear that they would defend MK without a treaty. If you want to take their statement confirming that they would defend MK without a treaty as a written "contract" or perhaps a one-sided "Agreement", then you could say that it was a written obligation to defend MK. Heck, their announcement of such was signed by the Government and supported by MK, so you could very well argue that. But just because a "treaty" in the way that YOU know it does not exist, doesn't mean a legal right to defend MK doesn't exist. Just because VE or others do not prescribe to the paperless FA movement, does not mean it's invalid. Would you say the same thing of the Moldavi Doctrine? You can spout "this is CN Norm" at me all you like, but it doesn't mean Gre or MHA has to follow, and if we do NOT follow, it doesn't make our actions illegal or illegitimate just because [i]you[/i] don't think it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcurley Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 To Glory!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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