Vanguard Edict

[michaeru]

Isn't that more of a protectorate bloc tied into SF? Like, I don't know, Poseidon or Ragnablok oder the Overlord's Protectorate Pact? Oh well, whatever it is, I guess that's been done then, damn.

[Mack Truck]

So you're affirming that political manouevering by CnG alliances can logically be taken as a possible sign of a greater strategy within the bloc, then. Just trying to clarify. If your CnG allies clearly mean more to you and are making treaty announcements further tying them to a bloc that is simultaneously waging a war against your "lower level" allies, it's not much of a leap to deduce that there is something more at work. Thus all those people, ah, bawwwwing, weren't necessarily out of line. Pattern recognition is one of the wonders of human intelligence!

If we wanted to fight Polar we wouldn't have a treaty for a start, wouldn't make a relatively elaborate plan to allow Vanguard to use a treaty to attack them - when they already another such treaty - and would have simply joined in with FOK!. If people really think that MK has conspired against the NpO here then they've ignored the obvious and are stupid. Not "necessarily out of line", but still stupid.

[Marty McFly]

Isn't that more of a protectorate bloc tied into SF? Like, I don't know, Poseidon or Ragnablok oder the Overlord's Protectorate Pact? Oh well, whatever it is, I guess that's been done then, damn.

Thats what I thought, but:

Teen Titans is a MADP bloc originally between the Armed Coalition of Valor, the International Protection Agency, and The Order of Halsa on October 20, 2008. Over time the Titans grew to include Apocalypse, the Ascended Republic of Elite States, and Through Yggdrasil's Roots. Since it's formation they have since lost the Armed Coalition of Valor, who disbanded, Apocalypse (renamed Aeon for a short time), who merged into Monos Archein, and the International Protection Agency, who merged into the Corporation. The Teen Titans bloc is MDoAPed to The SuperFriends MADP bloc.

[uaciaut]

It was a CB to us. Alliance X does something we don't like, we attack Alliance X. I really don't see any other way CBs would happen, unless they fit your agenda.

So its OK to conspire to destroy the NPO based on morals, but its not ok for Polaris to war with an alliance based on morals? Awesome double standard.

Last time i checked NPO got destroyed in a war they started based on a CB (and it actually was a CB) that most people found to be not viable. It's nice turning facts to your favour.

As fod Death's post - i also enjoy how you're trying to call me out on bashing of an ally, but as far as i've seen most NpO members don't have a problem admitting they declared on m/ because they don't like them - specifically because they don't like how they raid. I don't consider that a CB and i don't think i should just because i'm allied to you, thanks.

[NoFish]

A history that forces you to announce an oA treaty mere hours after said bloc has entered into a war. Ok, I'll keep that in mind.

In a world where every other alliance announces treaties either right before a war starts or shortly after a war ends, Vanguard strikes a bold new course in announcing offensive treaties with combatants once the war has already started.

Did you miss the part where Vanguard was already MDoAP'd to SLCB? Yes, yes you did. Did you see that? That was your argument flying out the window.

Edited January 25, 2010 by NoFish

[Doitzel]

If we wanted to fight Polar we wouldn't have a treaty for a start, wouldn't make a relatively elaborate plan to allow Vanguard to use a treaty to attack them - when they already another such treaty - and would have simply joined in with FOK!. If people really think that MK has conspired against the NpO here then they've ignored the obvious and are stupid. Not "necessarily out of line", but still stupid.

I was under the impression that your government largely listened to your membership and I'm pretty sure the Polars and their Emperor are not particularly popular in that demographic. Just because you have a treaty now doesn't mean you will in [whatever number of hours that cancellation period lasts]. When the nukes start flying treaties are generally discarded or ignored by prettymuch everyone.

[Mack Truck]

I was under the impression that your government largely listened to your membership and I'm pretty sure the Polars and their Emperor are not particularly popular in that demographic. Just because you have a treaty now doesn't mean you will in [whatever number of hours that cancellation period lasts]. When the nukes start flying treaties are generally discarded or ignored by prettymuch everyone.

Do you believe that it's likely MK will be fighting the NpO during this conflict?

[Marty McFly]

Last time i checked NPO got destroyed in a war they started based on a CB (and it actually was a CB) that most people found to be not viable. It's nice turning facts to your favour.

As fod Death's post - i also enjoy how you're trying to call me out on bashing of an ally, but as far as i've seen most NpO members don't have a problem admitting they declared on m/ because they don't like them - specifically because they don't like how they raid. I don't consider that a CB and i don't think i should just because i'm allied to you, thanks.

What was the CB for the NPO? Attacking OV? Well sure that was the stated CB, but we ALL know the real reason why people wanted to kill them. Nobody cared about OV, just killing the NPO and that was a convenient "legal" way to do it.

[Denial]

I've made that a little more accurate for you, Denial.

Hey, I completely agree that \m/'s actions were abhorrent. However, I feel Polar were also incredibly inconsiderate towards their allies and those allies' friends. As I said in my previous post, attacking \m/ with a flagrant disregard towards the terribly difficult position it placed countless alliances was not the most prudent response. Polaris is not Pacifica, and we are not the Purple Sphere. We do not dance to Polar's tune; we do not ask "how high?" when they say "jump".

Just because you don't like our CB it doesn't became nonexistent.

"We don't like techraiding" is a piss-poor casus belli when it applies selectively. Over half the alliances in the Cyberverse allow raiding, including some of Polar's allies. Where are the treaty cancellations? Where are the wars? Where is the righteous indignation? I despise \m/ as much as the next person, but the entire justification for the war is dubious.

So its OK to conspire to destroy the NPO based on morals, but its not ok for Polaris to war with an alliance based on morals? Awesome double standard.

There was no 'conspiracy' to destroy the New Pacific Order; the alliance would still be intact if they had not decided to aggressively attack an alliance without adequate justification in the middle of peace negotiations. The Karma War, for the side of Karma, was entirely focused on the defence of friends and allies.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Denial

[NoFish]

This is not an ironic statement. Tech raiding is opportunism; attacking an alliance that has many nukes, with friends with many nukes, is not. That said,

Because Polar would never techraid or support techraiding, right?

What was the CB for the NPO? Attacking OV? Well sure that was the stated CB, but we ALL know the real reason why people wanted to kill them. Nobody cared about OV, just killing the NPO and that was a convenient "legal" way to do it.

We didn't care about OV so much we signed an MADP with them!

Edited January 25, 2010 by NoFish

[hizzy]

tbh, while I don't think MK has anything "in the works" here (my reasoning being that if they do have some conspiracy then they're idiots because they don't need one, and archon isn't an idiot, thus, no conspiracy), it's still a huge slap in the face to do this at a time like this, and either there is a lot of incompetence regarding what constitutes "bad timing", or there is a total disregard for an ally.

[Denial]

tbh, while I don't think MK has anything "in the works" here (my reasoning being that if they do have some conspiracy then they're idiots because they don't need one, and archon isn't an idiot, thus, no conspiracy), it's still a huge slap in the face to do this at a time like this, and either there is a lot of incompetence regarding what constitutes "bad timing", or there is a total disregard for an ally.

Kind of like when Polar declared on \m/, which initiated this entire mess.

[hizzy]

Because Polar would never techraid or support techraiding, right?

Polaris, last I checked, does not allow techraiding.

"WHOA HOLD THE PHONE! A MEMBER DID SOMETHING AGAINST THE RULES OF THE ALLIANCE??? THAT'S IT, DISBAND IT ALL! EVERYONE GO HOME!"

And even then, this war wasn't about allowing techraiding... if it was, NpO would lose near half their treaties. This war is about a group of clowns getting kicked in the teeth when they thought it was safe to grin.

Edited January 25, 2010 by hizzy

[uaciaut]

What was the CB for the NPO? Attacking OV? Well sure that was the stated CB, but we ALL know the real reason why people wanted to kill them. Nobody cared about OV, just killing the NPO and that was a convenient "legal" way to do it.

I'm not getting into "what a CB is" and "that was all a plot to lure NPO in" debates. Sorry.

[neneko]

I was under the impression that your government largely listened to your membership and I'm pretty sure the Polars and their Emperor are not particularly popular in that demographic. Just because you have a treaty now doesn't mean you will in [whatever number of hours that cancellation period lasts]. When the nukes start flying treaties are generally discarded or ignored by prettymuch everyone.

They do listen quite well to the membership and most of MK still hold polar in high regard. Some of us are quite mad at them for the seemingly endless list of stunts they keep performing to make our lives harder but to say that we would directly attack an ally is quite a low blow. I don't see where you even got that idea from. Have we done anything to make you think we would attack polar?

Also for everyone that keep bringing us up. This is not a MK announcement. Seriously can you at least save you whining for a thread that we made?

[AirMe]

Because I am sure they thought real hard about that treaty with STA.

-omfg

Because you guys really considered your allies feelings when you started this mess. Go back under your bridge. You put STA in this mess not anyone else.

FAKEDIT: I am only on page 3.

[Doitzel]

Do you believe that it's likely MK will be fighting the NpO during this conflict?

No, but I'm pretty sure that your treaty won't be lasting and that MK will probably be fighting against Polar's allies or allies of their allies or whatever. The rapidity with which hostilities have sprung up between Polar and MK is pretty telling that this isn't the first issue.

Hey, I completely agree that \m/'s actions were abhorrent. However, I feel Polar were also incredibly inconsiderate towards their allies and those allies' friends. As I said in my previous post, attacking \m/ with a flagrant disregard towards the terribly difficult position it placed countless alliances was not the most prudent response. Polaris is not Pacifica, and we are not the Purple Sphere. We do not dance to Polar's tune; we do not ask "how high?" when they say "jump".

I don't disagree that Polar mishandled the situation.

[hizzy]

Kind of like when Polar declared on \m/, which initiated this entire mess.

What's your point? "waaa but NpO insulted RoK, so why can't Vanguard insult whoever they want too? WAAA!" Do you want to be like NpO, or don't you? Pick one already.

Regardless of how childish your response is, Ragnarok was kept well in the loop of what was going on. I'd go so far as to say that it was RoK's dismissal of \m/ after they acted like tools which led to the war happening sooner than expected. So, no, it's not like when Polar declared on \m/.

[NoFish]

Polaris, last I checked, does not allow techraiding.

"WHOA HOLD THE PHONE! A MEMBER DID SOMETHING AGAINST THE RULES OF THE ALLIANCE??? THAT'S IT, DISBAND IT ALL! EVERYONE GO HOME!"

And even then, this war wasn't about allowing techraiding... if it was, NpO would lose near half their treaties. This war is about a group of clowns getting kicked in the teeth when they thought it was safe to grin.

I will admit, I couldn't find any official statement from Polaris about allowing techraiding or not, nor a mention of it in their charter. I simply assumed since they had two tech raids on the books when I checked and supported GOONS in their techraiding of RLMMO that they supported it.

[Caliph]

tbh, while I don't think MK has anything "in the works" here (my reasoning being that if they do have some conspiracy then they're idiots because they don't need one, and archon isn't an idiot, thus, no conspiracy), it's still a huge slap in the face to do this at a time like this, and either there is a lot of incompetence regarding what constitutes "bad timing", or there is a total disregard for an ally.

I fully agree here.

The conduct of Polar members, although in response to MK members posts, is still a slap in the face.

Especially considering Grub's post stating to his "allies" that this situation would end better if his "allies" looked to the "big picture" and not the "small picture".

He should have taken his own advice and not initiated this war that most of his allies did not want, and most of the alliances here did not want.

Then again, when you come knocking and bring threats of war and threaten other alliances to get them to back down, don't be too shocked when sooner or later you find an alliance who won't back down from your threats.

[hizzy]

I will admit, I couldn't find any official statement from Polaris about allowing techraiding or not, nor a mention of it in their charter. I simply assumed since they had two tech raids on the books when I checked and supported GOONS in their techraiding of RLMMO that they supported it.

I say they don't allow it based on my time as a member there in the past; if that has changed, then it's my mistake, but I don't think it has.

[hizzy]

Then again, when you come knocking and bring threats of war and threaten other alliances to get them to back down, don't be too shocked when sooner or later you find an alliance who won't back down from your threats.

And likewise, when you and yours keep running around acting like monkeys and asking people to bring it and do something about it, don't be shocked when someone kicks you in the teeth.

Attempting to hide behind a few treaties in peace mode while having your friends take damage for your childish behaviour is really classy of you though.

[Rush Sykes]

tbh, while I don't think MK has anything "in the works" here (my reasoning being that if they do have some conspiracy then they're idiots because they don't need one, and archon isn't an idiot, thus, no conspiracy), it's still a huge slap in the face to do this at a time like this, and either there is a lot of incompetence regarding what constitutes "bad timing", or there is a total disregard for an ally.

Can you disrespect an ally who is currently disrespecting allies?

[The FSM]

Did you miss the part where Vanguard was already MDoAP'd to SLCB? Yes, yes you did. Did you see that? That was your argument flying out the window.

Quoting posts made early on in a debate/argument can often lead to situations such as this. If you have read the entirety of my postings here you will notice that I addressed that point which you just raised.

In case you dont feel like scrolling through pages of arguments, I will summarize for you.

In a situation where Vanguard was already MDoAP'd to SLCB why did it decide to make this treaty announcement if it was going to a) aggravate some of their allies, and b) damage their credibility in the eyes of a broad swath of the community. The fact that they already had a treaty they could have used to fight alongside this particular bloc means they could have very easily waited until after the war (as many combatants do in situations where they are unable to announce treaties before a war or the treaty is agreed to during wartime) to announce this treaty and avoided this... argument, mess, what have you.

But they didnt, which leads me (and a number of other people as well) to question the motives of this agreement. Namely, if announcing this treaty was going to elicit such a reaction, and they had the opportunity to avoid this reaction with not adverse impact to their war alignment, then why did they go ahead and announce the treaty?

So yes, the earlier argument you have quoted and so deftly deflected may indeed be thrown out the window, but a different one has taken its place.

[Marty McFly]

Hey, I completely agree that \m/'s actions were abhorrent. However, I feel Polar were also incredibly inconsiderate towards their allies and those allies' friends. As I said in my previous post, attacking \m/ with a flagrant disregard towards the terribly difficult position it placed countless alliances was not the most prudent response. Polaris is not Pacifica, and we are not the Purple Sphere. We do not dance to Polar's tune; we do not ask "how high?" when they say "jump".

"We don't like techraiding" is a piss-poor casus belli when it applies selectively. Over half the alliances in the Cyberverse allow raiding, including some of Polar's allies. Where are the treaty cancellations? Where are the wars? Where is the righteous indignation? I despise \m/ as much as the next person, but the entire justification for the war is dubious.

There was no 'conspiracy' to destroy the New Pacific Order; the alliance would still be intact if they had not decided to aggressively attack an alliance without adequate justification in the middle of peace negotiations. The Karma War, for the side of Karma, was entirely focused on the defence of friends and allies.

We don't like alliances attacking other alliances as a whole, but calling it a tech raid instead of a war.

We all know thats false, please don't lie about this. You, me, and half of this planet wanted to kill the NPO by any means necessary.

I'm not getting into "what a CB is" and "that was all a plot to lure NPO in" debates. Sorry.

It wasn't a plot, you just jumped in the first opportunity and were prepared the entire time before.