Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Roadie]

Seriously, if you still cannot differentiate between a tech raid and an alliance war, than arguing with you is pointless.

How is an entire alliance tech raiding another entire alliance not an alliance war?

[Phetion]

who are you to tell someone that a public matter is none of someones business.

When it has been resolved amicably, who are Polar to enforce their law?

[Van Hoo III]

Funny thing is, they didn't realize that we would actually do it. now their crocodile tears are overflowing the banks of Ampville and we've had to send out flood warnings.

It's funny that you guys keep saying that, yet it is not even close to the truth. \m/ knew you were going to attack them and assume you would no matter what they did. There is no shock on the part of \m/ whatsoever. Keep proclaiming that they didn't think you'd go through with it because you look pretty stupid from where those of us in the know are sitting.

Another important point is that Grub didn't say anything to \m/ to start the commentary in \m/'s channel. You went after him with horrid and childish insults simply for being there. This wasn't just individuals saying what they please in their home channel or joking around with eachother. This was you going after someone who you knew damn well wasn't "in on the joke" in public.

Anyway, those two points were just irking me to no end. While I understand Polar and \m/'s reasons to an extent ... I do not agree in any way, shape, or form and both sides have been told this.

Tech raiding a 34 man alliance is stupid.

Getting involved when it is already resolved (and imposing a deadline, no less) and not your concern is stupid.

Goading someone who doesn't like you (while using racial slurs, no less) is stupid.

Attacking an ally of an ally is stupid.

Neither of you cared enough about Ragnarok to simply walk away. Shame on you both.

[Dochartaigh]

Polar happens to be tied to both MK and GR from within C&G. Athens/FoB happen to be tied to PC, who Grub is continually egging on.

Other strings: Vanguard -> RoK and MK->GOONS.

Now, let me again reiterate I am not defending \m/, but criticizing Polar. MK was put in the same situation as RoK (and to a lesser extent Athens/FoB) are in now, BY polar, just over a month ago. If this expands via PC hitting Polar, that puts almost all of C&G in a tight spot. Not something we enjoy one of our allies doing to us, especially since we vocally informed them before time.

actually at that point it would be PC putting you in that position, not Polaris. as Polaris hit someone that is indirectly allied to CnG but not directly tied. PC on the other hand is directly tied and thus would be the ones putting CnG in the tight spot by attacking Polaris.

but good attempt at spinning this into being Polaris's fault because \m/ fails at diplomacy and instead hurls racial slurs.

I had thought it a gentleman's agreement that you don't go after the friends of a friend. Most folks I've known have always seen it that way. Especially when you have no direct reasoning to be involved in either situation.

so essentially, all of your allies get a free pass to do as they please and MK's allies can't do jack about it? awesome way to act towards your allies. i hope to god that IAA never treaties MK if that is what you want.

so essentially because \m/ is indirectly allied to CnG, they could potentially hit an alliance indirectly allied to Polaris and what you want is for Polaris to not do a damn thing?

Who's policing anything? I am raising concerns with regards to how much Polaris cares about its allies, yes, and I am more than entitled to do so seeing as I'm currently allied to them and this is the second time they decide to screw our opinions in the name of doing what they think "is right".

ahhh i get it now. what you want is for Polaris to abide by your opinions while you tell Polaris that their opinions be damned and you spit on them and all that. and Polaris is the alliance that does not consider their allies' opinions? heh...

Did we attack IAA?

No.

so then we can get over the whole Polaris/Athens thing and stop attempting to use that as an example. Polaris has only attacked two allies of their allies. FIST and \m/.

so if we are gonna start counting Athens as part of Polaris's list, then MK has IAA on their list. which means is IAA in any actual position to discuss this at all at least without being hypocritical about it?

A Techraid is not a fullscale alliance war. If that is the base of your argument we might as well go home, since it's a delusion at best. Also as i stated before, according to Grub and his OP the techraid was not the basis of the CB.

according to \m/ tech raiding is warring. thus, to \m/ it is an alliance wide war when they organize a mass tech raid on an alliance. should read the thread before you attempt to state something like this.

A good way to start being good allies to MK (or to anybody else for that matter) would be not to attack or threaten to attack their allies, in matters which you decide to freely involve yourself.

so wait, you are stating that threatening to attack an ally of MK is not being a good ally to MK???? but what about when MK had the "i support rolling IAA" in their sigs? is that not being a good ally to GR, LOST, and Athens???

you should seriously learn your own history before you start posting stuff like this. MK is just as guilty then of being bad allies to their closest allies if you go with this.

You know you've done a brilliant political move when you get support from baps, tpf and tso.

so because MK does not like certain alliances all of a sudden means that if they support an action, it is automatically evil? awesome. i personally don't like any of those alliances, but TPF is honorable for standing by their ally during the Karma war (if if they lost much of that honor by throwing it away during the recent non-war), BAPS has always stood by their allies through thick and skin and while i disagree with much of their actions, they are quite honorable. i have nothing to say on TSO though...

i could say the same with PC and FoB. if we are pissing them off we must be doing something right. both partake in actions i consider deplorable but they also both are extremely loyal to their allies.

just because someone flies a certain AA does not invalidate their point in any way and i truly do not like that kind of argument as it is extremely weak and ad hominem.

There is a line...and a not so fine line to be sure....between alliance leaders speaking to other alliance leaders, and alliance leaders making DEMANDS of other alliance leaders.

so i take it that from now on the moment Athens ever goes to war, it will always end in white peace, since surrender terms demand something from alliance leaders. also, seems ya'll did not think this way when you demanded something from TPF leadership before finally relenting and giving white peace...

also, at least Polaris attempted diplomacy for this war. Athens failed to even do that against TPF. seriously, some people talk about Polaris's past actions while forgetting their own.

[Roadie]

Can't say anything about TPF and TSO, but BAPS ... if the Polars get attacked, the treatyweb chains to them. Shouldn't be a huge surprise.

At that point BAPS chains to us.

[Louisa]

Just because Polar thinks they have buisness doesn't mean they actually do.

On the contrary I would say that that means that they do have business -- if they "think" they have business there then they obviously "do" have business there, in their own opinion. Others may not agree (obviously, as we see in many places here) but I would say that it is pretty clear that Polaris feels that they have business with \m/.

Who else's opinion are they suppose to use? Can they only "have business" if some one else allows them to to?

[Locke]

I am new at this been keeping my eye on this war. Hopeing to learn a few things from it. Right now \m/ Has 19 Nations in Anarchy. And NPO has 23 Nactions in Anarchy. Would that indicate that \M/ has the upper hand so far?

I think you meant NpO. Unless NPO's protection is just that bad right now.

Fake edit: 22, almost is.

[TheEraser]

As i posted quite a few times before, i won't even try to defend the slurs and vulgar (i think that is how it is spelled) language. They have issued an apology for it, which shows quite clearly that they also recognise they were out of line.

In regards to the proverbial finger what exactly did you expect? Do you answer in a diplomatic tone if an outside alliance you are not treatied with comes and butts their head into your affairs?

Also, what i find quite amusing is the absurd lack of reading comprehension your side has shown in this thread. By my count there have been 2 \m/ members in here, and neither has been crying any kind of crocodile tears. Starfox posted a propaganda thread over in IC, but aside from that i haven't seen any real complaining from them.

you're right thats my bad its the croc tears of superfriends that are currently flooding my plains, for some unknown reason...

Grub went to their channel on a diplomatic mission, usually that means things get sorted out. \m/ wanted no part in sorting things our and righting their wrongs like some of the other parties involved did, instead they taunted us and spat on our patience. now they will get to taste a solid chunk of the nearly 5,000 nukes we've been stockpiling.

I find it funny that with as common as the "do something" meme is used, we're the only alliance actually willing to do anything to back up our words.

[Merrie Melodies]

I don't know why people still are talking about "friends of friends" thing, I'm pretty sure that Grub talked with Hoo about this before declare war, RoK gov already stated in this thread that while they don't agree with their allies being attacked they understand our position. Being friend of our friends doesn't give nobody a carte blanche to do whatever they want and then start yelling "do something about it" without fear consequences. For those who still are trying to bring this to this thread I have a question, where were you to say to \m/ to don't piss off Polaris because they were your friend too? Is this just a one way road?

We reacted to Grubs initial action, and we continue to flip him and your alliance the bird.

[King Srqt]

Seriously, if you still cannot differentiate between a tech raid and an alliance war, than arguing with you is pointless.

Just because you call it something else does not make it not a war. War was declared damage was done it was done on an alliance wide scale. That is an alliance war no matter what niceties you would like to associate with it.

But the question I asked in my last post is not dependent on any specific label for the conflict. \m/ attacked and told FoA how they could respond, telling them that they were not allowed to declare individual wars to defend their alliance mates, so why is it ok for \m/ to come in and tell an alliance what they can and can't do but when someone does it back to them you have an issue with it?

[Tulafaras]

How is an entire alliance tech raiding another entire alliance not an alliance war?

It might have something to do with the lack of nukes, AC attacks, CMs and navy attacks.

It also might have something to do with the easy way to stop the raid ("pm for peace" ring any bells?).

[Mergerberger II]

When it has been resolved amicably, who are Polar to enforce their law?

As has been said before by someone (I don't recall who, sorry), the situation between \m/ and Polaris was not resolved. There are two different situations here, one between FoA and \m/ and another between Polaris and \m/, one of which has been resolved and the other has culminated in this. Before you continue to throw out your idiotic one-liners, try and make sure you actually know what happened and can speak with some knowledge on the matter.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Ivan, your new and improved Moldavi Doctrine gave NSO the best CB one could have found against \m/. Many of your .gov were denouncing us, why didn't you roll us? after all, NSO was on scene long before NpO!

Contrary to some popular rumors, the NSO isn't a chaotic rabble, even if some of our own membership behaves as if it is on occasion publicly.

I was not on the scene and didn't hear of this issue at all until after I knew of Polar's intentions, and we will honor the wishes of our ally that they take the forefront on this issue. Considering that I make the decisions on when and where we go to war aggressively it is not very hard to envision the reason NSO didn't declare logistically.

[Riddick]

Just as \m/ wanted to impose their will and rules on FoA for no otherreason than that FoA could not defend themselves. Why is \m/ right and Polar wrong?

\m/ was not alone in that tech raid and for such, Grub suggests his reasons for war are getting flipped the bird. Cant have people

excersising their freedom of speech around here lol.

[Dochartaigh]

It's funny that you guys keep saying that, yet it is not even close to the truth. \m/ knew you were going to attack them and assume you would no matter what they did. There is no shock on the part of \m/ whatsoever. Keep proclaiming that they didn't think you'd go through with it because you look pretty stupid from where those of us in the know are sitting.

Another important point is that Grub didn't say anything to \m/ to start the commentary in \m/'s channel. You went after him with horrid and childish insults simply for being there. This wasn't just individuals saying what they please in their home channel or joking around with eachother. This was you going after someone who you knew damn well wasn't "in on the joke" in public.

Anyway, those two points were just irking me to no end. While I understand Polar and \m/'s reasons to an extent ... I do not agree in any way, shape, or form and both sides have been told this.

Tech raiding a 34 man alliance is stupid.

Getting involved when it is already resolved (and imposing a deadline, no less) and not your concern is stupid.

Goading someone who doesn't like you (while using racial slurs, no less) is stupid.

Attacking an ally of an ally is stupid.

Neither of you cared enough about Ragnarok to simply walk away. Shame on you both.

wish you had come like 63 pages before this Hoo. hope this clears many of the assumptions from all sides. in my opinion, the only victim here is Rok.

[RustyNail]

Fascinating. The people have an uprising to throw off the oppressive regime (Karma) and vow a new world has come. Now, when certain alliances try their hat at being oppressive, sometimes the very ones that raised the rallying cry for the revolution, everyone is surprised or outraged at groups standing up and saying 'NO'. I find the hypocricy almost tangible at times.

Good luck Polaris, though I know you won't need it.

Edited January 21, 2010 by RustyNail

[Mergerberger II]

It might have something to do with the lack of nukes, AC attacks, CMs and navy attacks.

It also might have something to do with the easy way to stop the raid ("pm for peace" ring any bells?).

So it's okay to go after small alliances for no reason other than 'you can'? That ought to mean it's okay for us to go after \m/ without reason and you should have no objection, yes?

(Note, I am not saying we have no reason for hostilities with \m/. I believe the CB is plenty legitimate.)

[Dochartaigh]

It might have something to do with the lack of nukes, AC attacks, CMs and navy attacks.

It also might have something to do with the easy way to stop the raid ("pm for peace" ring any bells?).

i would reread the OP if i were you. essentially for this to end "pm for peace" is all \m/ has to do.

[Tulafaras]

As has been said before by someone (I don't recall who, sorry), the situation between \m/ and Polaris was not resolved. There are two different situations here, one between FoA and \m/ and another between Polaris and \m/, one of which has been resolved and the other has culminated in this. Before you continue to throw out your idiotic one-liners, try and make sure you actually know what happened and can speak with some knowledge on the matter.

There wasn't ANY situation between \m/ and Polaris before Grub decided to make one by entering their channel and issue his demands to their Goverment. So what kind of situation are you referring to good sir?

Seriously, your party line is thin at best, bringing down the community is empty rethoric at best, and arguing against the "vileness" of Techraiding is hypocritical at best if you are willing to forgive PC and GOONs the same offence.

[Merrie Melodies]

i would reread the OP if i were you. essentially for this to end "pm for peace" is all \m/ has to do.

You are quite correct, can you guess why we haven't so far?

[King Srqt]

It might have something to do with the lack of nukes, AC attacks, CMs and navy attacks.

It also might have something to do with the easy way to stop the raid ("pm for peace" ring any bells?).

Oh so it is acceptable to attack an alliance if you follow those guidelines. I will go ask Xiph if he would consider it an alliance war if an alliance came in with an organized attack against GOD using those criteria. I think you and I both know what type of war he would consider it.

[Dochartaigh]

Fascinating. The people have an uprising to throw off the oppressive regime (Karma) and vow a new world has come. Now, when certain alliances try their hat at being oppressive, sometimes the very ones that raised the rallying cry for the revolution, everyone is surprised or outraged at groups standing up and saying 'NO'. I find the hypocricy almost tangible at times.

Good luck Polaris, though I know you won't need it.

i have become disenchanted with the alliances formerly part of Karma. it seems that oppression was in fact the goal of many and that others simply support it for no real reason whatsoever. even the voice of Karma now supports attacking alliances simply because they have no treaties.

[Tulafaras]

So it's okay to go after small alliances for no reason other than 'you can'? That ought to mean it's okay for us to go after \m/ without reason and you should have no objection, yes?

(Note, I am not saying we have no reason for hostilities with \m/. I believe the CB is plenty legitimate.)

If you had decided to techraid \m/ and organised such i'd tip my hat to you for the irony and that would be it.

Instead you declared an alliance war.

Frankly i am sick and tired of this thread, so i will take my leave now. Hoo has posted the only relevant post of the last 5 pages, everything else is the same endless back and forth of the same arguments we have had for nearly 60 pages before that.

PS: My personal opinion is that both sides made plenty of errors in their behaviour to go around.

[Mergerberger II]

There wasn't ANY situation between \m/ and Polaris before Grub decided to make one by entering their channel and issue his demands to their Goverment. So what kind of situation are you referring to good sir?

Seriously, your party line is thin at best, bringing down the community is empty rethoric at best, and arguing against the "vileness" of Techraiding is hypocritical at best if you are willing to forgive PC and GOONs the same offence.

No, there wasn't any situation with \m/ and Polaris prior to this whole ordeal, and yes, Grub did, to some extent, create the situation, however \m/ extended it to the point where it became a situation out of which war was the only way. They are the ones who made racist comments. They are the ones with the vulgar language, and they are the ones who created the need for a war on Polar's part.

On the second statement, we did not forgive PC and GOONS gave us a good enough apology and on top of that they are already our allies and thus we have a bit of a soft spot for GOONS. PC was less vocal and thus did not receive all of 'this'. It is my understanding that PC has remained fairly silent and has not been racist or offensive to our Emperor and thus their situation does not merit a war.

[The Pansy]

wish you had come like 63 pages before this Hoo. hope this clears many of the assumptions from all sides. in my opinion, the only victim here is Rok.

Sad sad day when I find myself agreeing totally with Dochartaigh.

Have fun all, see some of you if it chains as far as me