Nobody Expects Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) actually you can support your ally while spanking them in private over their actions. so there is technically a third option. take for example MK's actions when Athens/FoB raided KoN... MK supported their ally while browbeating them in private. Aye they did such a good job browbeating them they went and did something even more daft, like start another war.....this time with no CB. Edited December 30, 2009 by Nobody Expects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Chocolate Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Well, I looked through all of them. I agree with the analysis except I would say that MCXA and Molon Labe are obligated as opposed to "probably". This is based on the idea that if there is a situation that is an exception, it needs to be specifically spelled out. TOOL, IRON and NATO - good exception clause. However, a statement saying that you're NOT following it in public should probably still be given. VA's exception I didn't like as much, I think it's less clear. However it's probably good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongrel Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Two interesting reads Sigrun, I guess you've got some spare time on your hands lately. You must have forgotten the futility of obscuring war type hype with factual information. Or maybe you've just made a New Years resolution to be more of an optimist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EatDirtFartDust Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 When your allies are scouring the treaties, trying to find a way to save themselves and leave you hanging out to dry, then you know you picked the right allies. mirite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Well, I looked through all of them. I agree with the analysis except I would say that MCXA and Molon Labe are obligated as opposed to "probably". This is based on the idea that if there is a situation that is an exception, it needs to be specifically spelled out. I hedged with probably in those cases because as I am sure you understand this is a time-consuming process and my goal, with limited time, was to finish the entire lot and post them while still relevant. While finding an applicable anti-espionage clause allows me to state with confidence that a particular alliance is NOT obligated, simply failing to find one does not prove that one doesnt exist. A few very remote but not entirely impossible scenarios come to mind where they might still have an out, hence I felt it appropriate to hedge by saying probably, rather than try to project total certainty where none exists. TOOL, IRON and NATO - good exception clause. However, a statement saying that you're NOT following it in public should probably still be given. VA's exception I didn't like as much, I think it's less clear. However it's probably good enough. VA's clause is worded differently, and at a glance looks weaker. "The signatories recognize that espionage against other sovereign alliances is neither honorable nor desirable; as such, the undersigned pledge not to engage in such activities." However after considerable thought, I concluded that the article must be read as having some effect, particularly in light of the explicit inclusion of this article in the unusual cancellation language at the end. And as I argued at the beginning of the MDAP topic, linked at the top of this one, the reading I adopted appears to be the absolute minimum effect that can be attributed without reading the clause out of the treaty entirely. Two interesting reads Sigrun, I guess you've got some spare time on your hands lately. You must have forgotten the futility of obscuring war type hype with factual information. Or maybe you've just made a New Years resolution to be more of an optimist? Hi Mongrel! Good to see you Well, we fought for a new world, now I guess we'll see how much good it did, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Aye they did such a good job browbeating them they went and did something even more daft, like start another war.....this time with no CB. heh. just because ya'll don't like or agree with the CB does not mean that their allies do not find it legit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxfire99 Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Yeah, I think the real point of stasis in this debate is whether TPF was proven to be spying. And the evidence is pretty lacking.. Not really. Even TPF admit they enacted this plan during the Karma war. Even if you do consider it justified, most of the treaties prohibit spying under any circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 JWConner, for all your snide remarks here, I hope you do end up DoWing at some point... otherwise you run the risk of looking silly. I am pretty sure that looking silly at the moment is in fact his goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I, for one, patently reject all this nonsense that TPF's allies are cowards. I believe they are planning their response appropriately, as our allies are planning their counters appropriately. If the goal of a war is to win, then they are going to give it their best chance to win, which I respect, it would be foolish to do otherwise. The strategizing is what makes war fun in this game. So, let them plan their response, and may the better planners win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anu Drake Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I, for one, patently reject all this nonsense that TPF's allies are cowards. I believe they are planning their response appropriately, as our allies are planning their counters appropriately. If the goal of a war is to win, then they are going to give it their best chance to win, which I respect, it would be foolish to do otherwise. The strategizing is what makes war fun in this game. So, let them plan their response, and may the better planners win. You sir, are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters. Also, to the OP, NATO will not be canceling our treaty in any way and have studied and reject the anti-espionage clause way out. Not that we don't agree that it would be possible to use this defense to cancel, the mitigating factors of the incident do not outweigh our friendship of over two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 You sir, are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters. Also, to the OP, NATO will not be canceling our treaty in any way and have studied and reject the anti-espionage clause way out. Not that we don't agree that it would be possible to use this defense to cancel, the mitigating factors of the incident do not outweigh our friendship of over two years. That is your choice to make. I have stated clearly a few times now, I have not addressed at all the question of what you should do, or what you will do, I was merely examining the allegation that you had no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vukland Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 First I personally don't give sh*t about TPF! But I must say their so called allies barring the ones with the spying clause are cowards!!! I am a member of a neutral alliance but if my friends were getting stomped clause or not I am jumping in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anu Drake Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 That is your choice to make. I have stated clearly a few times now, I have not addressed at all the question of what you should do, or what you will do, I was merely examining the allegation that you had no choice. I'm grateful for your analysis and information, don't get me wrong. I was just letting you know our stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted January 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 I'm grateful for your analysis and information, don't get me wrong. I was just letting you know our stance. I honestly didnt expect any gratitude, but thank you. Given the firm stance you have stated, however, the lack of action from NATO over the past week appears quite puzzling. Can you say anything additionally in that regard at this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 I honestly didnt expect any gratitude, but thank you. Given the firm stance you have stated, however, the lack of action from NATO over the past week appears quite puzzling. Can you say anything additionally in that regard at this time? I"ll help with that, here is the LINK to the Battle plans. Check it out for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 I am pretty sure that looking silly at the moment is in fact his goal. OH NO! You've caught me. Haf, you're so clever I, for one, patently reject all this nonsense that TPF's allies are cowards. I believe they are planning their response appropriately, as our allies are planning their counters appropriately. If the goal of a war is to win, then they are going to give it their best chance to win, which I respect, it would be foolish to do otherwise. The strategizing is what makes war fun in this game. So, let them plan their response, and may the better planners win. No fair. Using logical deduction and common sense? Now we're screwed. They figured us out. But all joking aside, well most joking aside, you have to be the first Athens member I've seen go against the State's opinion and offer up a free thought. Congrats on making an opinion of your own and not drinking the Kool-Aid. It's both good and frightening to know there is intelligence within the enemy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astronaut jones Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 OH NO! You've caught me. Haf, you're so clever No fair. Using logical deduction and common sense? Now we're screwed. They figured us out. But all joking aside, well most joking aside, you have to be the first Athens member I've seen go against the State's opinion and offer up a free thought. Congrats on making an opinion of your own and not drinking the Kool-Aid. It's both good and frightening to know there is intelligence within the enemy I've yet to see anyone from TPF or one of their allies offer up a free thought of their own, so here's to athens.. still waiting for anyone on your side to offer up something similiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 I've yet to see anyone from TPF or one of their allies offer up a free thought of their own, so here's to athens.. still waiting for anyone on your side to offer up something similiar. Apparently the powers of observation fail you, but that's to be expected considering your near-sightedness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astronaut jones Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 Apparently the powers of observation fail you, but that's to be expected considering your near-sightedness. I like to keep myself firmly planted in reality, you, on the other hand, I'm not sure where you like to keep yourself firmly planted, but I can guess as to where a part of you is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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