TPF MDoAP Treaties

[Legend]

OP, I am sorry for derailing your topic.

Now now guys, lets respect the OP and his hard work by refraining from digressing.

XD.

[OberstKrieger]

The forming of ZH wasn't part of The Plan. ZH had been planned long before the Karma War.

So you're saying that, because it had been in planning for a long time, it's not spying?

This is incorrect. TPF and ZH discussed it. It never went beyond discussion.

Apparently not, judging by the fact that ZH attempted to fulfill the goals of the "discussion."

[TheNakedJimbo]

This is incorrect. TPF and ZH discussed it. It never went beyond discussion.

Maybe this is true and maybe it's not; I don't have any way of knowing, other than believing one stranger's word over another. Perception matters more than reality sometimes.

Perhaps this will teach you the value of the ancient proverb that says to flee even the appearance of evil.

[Kevin McDonald]

Thats only true in Canada.

A recent case is where a man who broke into a house and repeatedly stabbed a woman and also her 9-year-old son who tried to protect her. The woman and her son managed to escape, and she required immediate surgery.

The man got 8.5 years for attempted murder. He didn't get a life sentence, did he?

Same case here.

Same old Kevin Mcdonald, always trying to act smart...

(OOC: What you are discussing isn't 1st degree murder, as there was no premeditation to kill the child... murder needs to be premeditated, otherwise it's manslaughter or a lesser degree of murder.

I don't try to act smart.)

Now, back on topic... I like the analysis provided, though I don't know whether I "agree" or not. I guess what it comes down to what the individual alliances believe.

[Kilkenny]

TOOL

Article III of this treaty is a strongly worded anti-espionage clause. "Neither alliance may directly participate in espionage of any type, regardless of situation and target. " Pretty clear and unambiguous. This treaty also has the relatively long 5 day cooling down period.

CONCLUSION: TOOL has no obligation to intervene in the current situation. Additionally they have good cause to cancel the treaty, with 5 days to take effect.

There is a problem with your anaylisis. The whole article is this:

Article III: Espionage

Neither alliance may directly participate in espionage of any type, regardless of situation and target. If either one of the undersigning alliances conducts espionage on the other signatory, this pact will be revoked immediately following a 24-hour truce. If either alliance bound to this pact conducts espionage on a non-signing alliance, it is grounds for revocation, but such action may or may not be taken by the other signatories leaders.

The part you quoted leaves out thre part that refers to this: If either one of the undersigning alliances conducts espionage on the other signatory, this pact will be revoked immediately following a 24-hour truce.

The first part is clearing refering to spying on each other.

But there is a part that covers spying on others and that is this:

If either alliance bound to this pact conducts espionage on a non-signing alliance, it is grounds for revocation, but such action may or may not be taken by the other signatories leaders

So it is up to them, and if they view the CB as valid.

edit: In fact most of the treaties have the exact same clause, menaing it is up to them to determine if they feel the CB is valid or not.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kilkenny

[IronMan17]

Stop kidding yourself. The only reason this is a war is because Athens wants war, and wants to bring the Karma war back. Its just an extended version. In CN you CANT really spy, Most stuff that happens in CN is either heard the next day by the entire planet bob, or is posted. So saying someone spied is like calling all of CN a spy. You just can't.

[King Louis the II]

Everything's right if not for one thing:

TPF is not proven guilty in spying.

Thus, this thread is epic PHAIL.

Epic fail? read it again: "Neither alliance may directly participate in espionage of any type, regardless of situation and target. " Pretty clear and unambiguous.

I know that it was said only 1423252 times but: TPF started an act of espionage (they assumed). This is participating, no matters it succed, if spies send information or not.

and fo for 343242 time it was worst them spying it was to "destroy an alliance from the inside", which in my view it qualifies as an aggressive act.

[mdnss69]

They're proven guilty of planting spies. Wether or not they got any info out of those doesn't really matter since that still constitutes as spying.

Yes they are, but only under wartime conditions of the Karma conflict. Then promptly after they broke connection.

[SpacingOutMan]

As said in the other thread, unless the cancellation article calls for the immediate dissolution based on espionage, their allies are OBLIGATED to join in. And since NONE of those allies have come in and announced the cancellation of the treaty and did it so that the grace period ended before TPF was declared on, they must come in. And if they don't, they just fail not only as an ally, but as a friend. War makes many lessons hard learned, and it just shows who your true friends are. If TPF's allies don't come in when they are under strict obligation to, and/or try to attempt to lawyer their way out of it, they lose all credibility as a capable alliance. Period.

[TheNakedJimbo]

If TPF's allies don't come in when they are under strict obligation to, and/or try to attempt to lawyer their way out of it, they lose all credibility as a capable alliance. Period.

Possible counterpoint: at least they will still be an alliance, and will not lose a big block of strength due to having an ally who does stupid things. That discernment would make them even more valuable to me if I was an alliance looking for allies.

I think that, if any of these allies had known something like a spy scandal was coming, they would surely have written the treaty in a way that allowed them an instant sever in the event of spying. Perhaps they will be more careful in the future; perhaps it is their fault for assuming that TPF was a trustworthy and reliable partner, but I would not say it is their fault by breaking ranks with someone who (near as we can tell) was guilty of spying.

[KingEd]

Everything's right if not for one thing:

TPF is not proven guilty in spying.

Thus, this thread is epic PHAIL.

Are you kidding me ? Whether the operation was successful or not, the operation was thought out, it was enacted, and thus it doesn't matter if their guilty of spying or not; and they did SPY. Non of the signatories above have the requirement to defend TPF, and they shouldn't. TPF knows what mhawk and company did was wrong and now they suffer the consequences. Sad but true, if any of their allies want to join in defense of TPF, it's very honorable, but stupid at the same time.

No, but the ZH plan was enacted, at least briefly. I don't think there's any question that for a few weeks in July TPF was committing espionage.

Indeed they were, and their allies shouldn't pay the price for their mistake.

[wickedj]

Possible counterpoint: at least they will still be an alliance, and will not lose a big block of strength due to having an ally who does stupid things. That discernment would make them even more valuable to me if I was an alliance looking for allies.

I think that, if any of these allies had known something like a spy scandal was coming, they would surely have written the treaty in a way that allowed them an instant sever in the event of spying. Perhaps they will be more careful in the future; perhaps it is their fault for assuming that TPF was a trustworthy and reliable partner, but I would not say it is their fault by breaking ranks with someone who (near as we can tell) was guilty of spying.

OMG! Theyre going to lose some NS defending their ally who they swore to defend? OH THE HORROR!

[dejarue]

Indeed they were, and their allies shouldn't pay the price for their mistake.

Then they're not allies.

[Svetovlad]

Shurukian's post had mentioned that she would be making another post in 36 hours. That post never happened. People were expecting a DoW from TSI in TPF's defense. It never happened. Strange? I think so.

[AnCapistan]

Are you kidding me ? Whether the operation was successful or not, the operation was thought out, it was enacted, and thus it doesn't matter if their guilty of spying or not; and they did SPY. Non of the signatories above have the requirement to defend TPF, and they shouldn't. TPF knows what mhawk and company did was wrong and now they suffer the consequences. Sad but true, if any of their allies want to join in defense of TPF, it's very honorable, but stupid at the same time.

So TPF should suffer for something planned during a time of war and that was never done after terms?

B)

[KingEd]

Then they're not allies.

No of course their not...the spirits in which the treaties were signed are no longer there and the very text of those treaties have been violated. If you want blood, why don't you go tell your alliance leaders to attack TPF's NON ALLIES for not honoring treaties they don't have to honor.

-

Edited December 29, 2009 by KingEd

[TheNakedJimbo]

OMG! Theyre going to lose some NS defending their ally who they swore to defend? OH THE HORROR!

I'll be eager to see your reaction when it's your nation about to be destroyed because your ally did something that every alliance in CN disapproves of.

Your whole point hinges on the fact that allies are bound to defend their allies. But they're not. The majority of those treaties included anti-spying articles. The moment TPF spied, the treaty was already broken, and the "cooling down" period specified in the treaty does not apply, because the treaty was broken the moment TPF violated its terms. So that's five of the allies off the hook right away.

As for the other three, well, I think that defending an alliance who is (probably) guilty of spying is the greater evil when compared to not honoring a treaty, but that's just me. I would think that the imperative to "do the right thing" - the condemnation of spying - is far greater than the alternative. A person's loyalty should always be to the Right Thing, not to words on a page.

Edited December 29, 2009 by TheNakedJimbo

[Bob Janova]

So it is up to them, and if they view the CB as valid.

You are correct, but that means they are not obligated to assist you – instead they can choose to cancel the treaty.

[JWConner]

No of course their not...the spirits in which the treaties were signed are no longer there and the very text of those treaties have been violated. If you want blood, why don't you go tell your alliance leaders to attack TPF's NON ALLIES for not honoring treaties they don't have to honor.

-

After reading the many options laid out, I choose this option.

[Dochartaigh]

I'll be eager to see your reaction when it's your nation about to be destroyed because your ally did something that every alliance in CN disapproves of.

this would work if most of TPF's allies have been vocal over how weak this CB is and how TPF should never have been attacked. thus, they do not think TPF did any wrong, they just seem to take at least 3 days to prepare to go to war. that is if they attack this update. if not, then it will be 4 days to prepare.

[JWConner]

this would work if most of TPF's allies have been vocal over how weak this CB is and how TPF should never have been attacked. thus, they do not think TPF did any wrong, they just seem to take at least 3 days to prepare to go to war. that is if they attack this update. if not, then it will be 4 days to prepare.

Ok, pop quiz....if they wait 1 more day after that, how many days will they have had to prepare?

[TheNakedJimbo]

Ok, pop quiz....if they wait 1 more day after that, how many days will they have had to prepare?

Just enough for the whole thing to blow over so they won't have to put their necks on the line, methinks.

[The Reccesion]

Ok, pop quiz....if they wait 1 more day after that, how many days will they have had to prepare?

Uhmmm 10?

[AnCapistan]

Just enough for the whole thing to blow over so they won't have to put their necks on the line, methinks.

Oh you! Opening your mouth when you have no idea what you're talking about or what is going on...how cute.

[JWConner]

Just enough for the whole thing to blow over so they won't have to put their necks on the line, methinks.

Ok, in the future, all answers must be in the form of a question.

Second, put on some clothes, this whole naked thing doesnt work for me.

And 3rd, you must be more specific.