The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Bob]

Doesn't make this one good though for the alliances using it against TPF (who I assume were against it in the GATO war).

GATO was ChrisKaos, correct?

I don't seem to see any similarity except that the damage had occurred a time before.

And I thought GATO screwed the pooch there by violating their surrender terms, and had no problem with the CB. I had a problem with the peace mode statement by NPO and the disbandment of IAA as a result of the war.

[Dochartaigh]

Doesn't make this one good though for the alliances using it against TPF (who I assume were against it in the GATO war).

the only thing of similarity is the timeframe. other than that, CK being in gov unknown to but like 1-2 people is not the same as TPF plotting to destroy Athens or RoK.

so, i would say that it makes this CB much more valid than the one used against GATO.

edit: wrong person.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Dochartaigh

[USMC123]

That has already happened.

Icwatudidthar

Being said, TPF's allies, let's play ball. Please?

[ChairmanHal]

Cookie, TPF put themselves in that position. they are the ones who rejected terms until NPO got them, not Karma stating that TPF would not receive terms or such nonsense, so again, i am unsure how TPF could even think they were in total war or an eternal war or any such BS, when they were the ones who put themselves in that position.

so Athens cannot take action against TPF because TPF chose to put themselves in a bad situation? that is the most !@#$%^&* thing i have ever heard.

The question is not whether or not Athens is justified in being upset, once again with feeling they are justified. And while I think that the pounding that TPF took should bear on the decision whether to go to war or not, it has no bearing on the simple fact that you're saying to every alliance from this point forward is that every single thing they are accused of doing during war time can now be used as a valid CB in the future if it didn't get mentioned in the surrender terms, regardless of how much time has passed.

Is that really a world you want to live in?

[Archon]

This reminds me of NPO CB against GATO.....

How?

[mhawk]

so then you think MHA should not have entered into vietFAN despite them having proof that FAN was spying on them? remember, MHA was not involved in vietFAN at that time and FAN was at eternal war with NPO and several other alliances.

so by your own words, MHA had no right to enter into vietFAN despite that?

as for surrender terms, so the fact that mhawk/TPF essentially continued the Karma war after they surrendered means that other alliances have a valid CB against TPF since TPF broke their terms.

First off there is no evidence of spying, indeed early in this thread Athens states that ZH gave tpf no intel nor talked to us aside from logs of them asking for a protectorate. Further it is pretty clearly demonstrated by july we had NO contact with ZH due to ooc fall out. How could we possibly have carried on the war via ZH if we were not in contact with them even before the war ended.

[AirMe]

Wait....which GATO/NPO spat is Rommel talking about?

[Bob]

The question is not whether or not Athens is justified in being upset, once again with feeling they are justified. And while I think that the pounding that TPF took should bear on the decision whether to go to war or not, it has no bearing on the simple fact that you're saying to every alliance from this point forward is that every single thing they are accused of doing during war time can now be used as a valid CB in the future if it didn't get mentioned in the surrender terms, regardless of how much time has passed.

Is that really a world you want to live in?

It wasn't during wartime. If it had been against MK, GR, PC, or whoever else was involved, then it would have been. It was not.

[USMC123]

The question is not whether or not Athens is justified in being upset, once again with feeling they are justified. And while I think that the pounding that TPF took should bear on the decision whether to go to war or not, it has no bearing on the simple fact that you're saying to every alliance from this point forward is that every single thing they are accused of doing during war time can now be used as a valid CB in the future if it didn't get mentioned in the surrender terms, regardless of how much time has passed.

Is that really a world you want to live in?

My question to your question is: Was this a war time tactic? More clearly, was this an operation whose sole purpose was to disrupt the enemy during war?

If yes, then I would me more likely to agree that this should have been let go. If not, it has nothing to do with the war and it is up to the offended to decide whether or not they should press charges.

EDIT: Bob brings up a good point. Neither Athens nor Rok were at war with TPF in Karma. Your point is irrelevant.

Edited December 27, 2009 by USMC123

[Archon]

First off there is no evidence of spying, indeed early in this thread Athens states that ZH gave tpf no intel nor talked to us aside from logs of them asking for a protectorate. Further it is pretty clearly demonstrated by july we had NO contact with ZH due to ooc fall out. How could we possibly have carried on the war via ZH if we were not in contact with them even before the war ended.

Did you or did you not assist in the formation of ZH for the purpose of negatively affecting Athens?

[Dochartaigh]

First off there is no evidence of spying, indeed early in this thread Athens states that ZH gave tpf no intel nor talked to us aside from logs of them asking for a protectorate. Further it is pretty clearly demonstrated by july we had NO contact with ZH due to ooc fall out. How could we possibly have carried on the war via ZH if we were not in contact with them even before the war ended.

you stated in the Athens thread (your first post there) that you knew what ZH wanted to do and did nothing to either stop them, or bring it to Athens attention.

also, you never stated that the logs were faked thus regardless of whether you had or did not have contact with ZH the intention was to spy and attempt to destroy Athens and other alliances.

it does not matter if you never had contact with them your intention was to get them to spy and attempt to destroy. just because it failed does not mean that you are suddenly free of any responsibility.

[HalfEmpty]

Poison Clan. And considering no one in Karma told them to cut it out, as far as I am concerned that is a condoning of that threat.

Damn, there goes our NAP feely.

[iamthey]

mhawk is the leader of TPF and it has always been the case that the alliance is held accountable for the actions of their leaders. i am loving how all the past precedents that have been used by the likes of TPF and basically every other alliance in CN are now being questioned for some reason....

... Probably because those precedents were established by NPO, and what was termed Hegemony. Idk... but I have heard those are not really considered good standards by the community at large? That being said, I thought we had entered a new era of supposed restraint... like we were going to do diplomacy first, ensure CB integrity, get rid of PZI and EZI, no huge reps, or elimination of reps entirely, and perhaps even the reconsideration of just how serious a spying CB is? I mean before the war we had people asking why 'spying' itself is a CB. We had organizations infiltrating forums and posting private information and being praised for it. There were even high profile infiltrations of key government posts in several of the Q alliances, there was no outcry then? So I wonder now is it just you don't like it when it happens to you, or what?

Edited December 27, 2009 by iamthey

[Trinite]

Good lord! What does it take to for a CB to be valid these days? They attempted to infiltrate an alliance and destroy it from the inside. I don't know if I'm more shocked that TPF would do this or that they and others are defending it. This is just ridiculous.

[Derwood1]

Since when have people taken PC seriously? Especially then after the stunt they pulled with the NAP.

Plenty of people take us serious why don't you stop over and discuss it with us; we had very good reasons for doing what we did.

Why don't you stop by and talk to leadership at PC about this.

[ChairmanHal]

My question to your question is: Was this a war time tactic? More clearly, was this an operation whose sole purpose was to disrupt the enemy during war?

If yes, then I would me more likely to agree that this should have been let go. If not, it has nothing to do with the war and it is up to the offended to decide whether or not they should press charges.

EDIT: Bob brings up a good point. Neither Athens nor Rok were at war with TPF in Karma. Your point is irrelevant.

Not irrelevant because the lack of a DoW does not mean that TPF and Athens & Rok were not on opposing sides. Very clearly they were in opposing factions in a much larger war and thus a defacto state of war existed between them, regardless of whether there was any shooting or not.

[HalfEmpty]

They attempted to infiltrate

Nothing here, run along and play with your infra.

LOL Sparta!

Edited December 27, 2009 by HalfEmpty

[cookavich]

Cookie, TPF put themselves in that position. they are the ones who rejected terms until NPO got them, not Karma stating that TPF would not receive terms or such nonsense, so again, i am unsure how TPF could even think they were in total war or an eternal war or any such BS, when they were the ones who put themselves in that position.

so Athens cannot take action against TPF because TPF chose to put themselves in a bad situation? that is the most !@#$%^&* thing i have ever heard.

Yeah, I don't really want to rehash that. It was TPF's choice, and whether that was a mistake or is irrelevant in my mind. They were at war, and I think that is really all that's relevant.

But not against Athens or RoK, right?

There was no official declaration against TPF by RoK or Athens, no. However, TPF was essentially at war with them seeing as they were at war with TPF's MADP partner and TPF was at war with at least Athen's MADP partner. I'm not really interested in splitting hairs/e-lawyering, though. TPF was at war with the Karma coalition of which both Athens and RoK were active members.

[Bob]

Not irrelevant because the lack of a DoW does not mean that TPF and Athens & Rok were not on opposing sides. Very clearly they were in opposing factions in a much larger war and thus a defacto state of war existed between them, regardless of whether there was any shooting or not.

Then why did TPF not sign terms with RoK and Athens?

Your argument is based in nothing but whatever will support TPF's position. There is no basis for this in anything, except in your mind.

[HalfEmpty]

Plenty of people take us serious why don't you stop over and discuss it with us; we had very good reasons for doing what we did.

Why don't you stop by and talk to leadership at PC about this.

Hush Puppet

[PrideAssassin]

Act of War during war is now liable to be a CB six months later?, the light of new world shines upon us.

No attempts at all for diplomacy? They just needed an excuse, not a CB or they'd talk it out first.

Right, because the evil NPO has to be stopped! Curbstomping all these little guys... oops...

Same as it ever was, apparently.

[Matthew Conrad]

They attempted to infiltrate

LOL Sparta!

Not really our fault you failed at it. Apparently if you trash TPF, you're sure to gain our trust!

[Bob]

Right, because the evil NPO has to be stopped! Curbstomping all these little guys... oops...

Same as it ever was, apparently.

Let's ignore what happened and create an opinion based off nothing.

Well done.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[USMC123]

Not irrelevant because the lack of a DoW does not mean that TPF and Athens & Rok were not on opposing sides. Very clearly they were in opposing factions in a much larger war and thus a defacto state of war existed between them, regardless of whether there was any shooting or not.

It is though, because while yes they were on opposite sides, they were NOT at war with each other. Neither had committed an act of war towards the other and neither had declared war against the other. They were on opposite sides due to treaties, not because one had given the other a CB. I can't speak for Athens, but I know RoK provided no assistance to those alliances fighting TPF either financially or via military aid, so the point remains: TPF and RoK/Athens were not at war, and even if you want to claim they were because of "sides", there is still the problem that neither had done ANYTHING to warrant attack from the other.

[HalfEmpty]

Not really our fault you failed at it. Apparently if you trash TPF, you're sure to gain our trust!

Dang!

Off to exmaine.