The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Chief Savage Man]

Yes but at no point did it affect Athens and co in anyway, they were not wronged in anyway. They are declaring this because TPF took a few steps that did not affect Athen in any shape. All TPF did was create a new alliance(which some people disagree with anyway.

and again with my hypothetical rogue situation: "I am planning to go rogue on Athens and have bought a few soldiers for this purpose am I now a target because I planned something and then set it into motion.

Your hypothetical rogue situation is just about the stupidest analogy I've ever seen. Creating mole alliances is a clearer signal of intent than buying soldiers.

[Proko]

When one creates a sleeper cell and deploys the sleeper cell it remains a active operation until that sleeper cell is recalled, destroyed or exposed.

This sleeper was never recalled, destroyed or exposed.

Just because the sleeper cell and its handler had a fall out doesn't negate the fact that it was a sleeper cell.

This is a really important point and its one that has not been especially clarified. Has anyone from Zero Hour stated whether or not they continued on their goal after TPF stopped communicating with them? I have seen no evidence either way, but it's pretty critical at least to my own perspective. If Zero Hour continued to operate as it was intended, it would certainly change things, at least as far as I'm in.

[WarriorConcept]

This is a really important point and its one that has not been especially clarified. Has anyone from Zero Hour stated whether or not they continued on their goal after TPF stopped communicating with them? I have seen no evidence either way, but it's pretty critical at least to my own perspective. If Zero Hour continued to operate as it was intended, it would certainly change things, at least as far as I'm in.

If TPF's intent was gone, they would've recalled their sleepers.

[neneko]

Yes but at no point did it affect Athens and co in anyway, they were not wronged in anyway. They are declaring this because TPF took a few steps that did not affect Athen in any shape. All TPF did was create a new alliance(which some people disagree with anyway.

and again with my hypothetical rogue situation: "I am planning to go rogue on Athens and have bought a few soldiers for this purpose am I now a target because I planned something and then set it into motion.

Also a few of TPF's allies are intenting to attack you, I am sure that enough cb for you to pre empt them right?

As I said it's no longer simply an intention when you've actually taken action.

If umbrella were to plant a spy in NPO and you found out would you be fine with letting that slip as long as there were no proof that the spy actually got any infromation out to umbrella?

I really doubt that any alliance would classify actually planting a spy as "intending to spy".

Edited December 27, 2009 by neneko

[bigwoody]

I told the alliance to get close and eventually do its damage. Getting close obviously takes time and so they really wouldn't need to be micro managed for most of it. If I never call them back and tell them the plan is off, how will you know if my intent ceased to exist?

Also the last part is pretty obvious, you fight every war hoping to win. Just because it happens that Athens have a lot of good allies is not their fault, why should they handicap themselves?

Well, essentially now you're going on a he said, she said as to past intent.

I have had a similar experience, that being the Wolfpack war. Nice gift wrapped CB like this one delivered by a splinter alliance. We went in fully believing ourselves correct based on evidence presented. Hell, most of the world agreed too.

It later turned out that the protected alliance fabricated the CB out of spite (pretty brilliantly I might add). Wary of that past experience, I probably would not act on that CB, no, unless there was clear and present danger.

(Honestly)

EDIT: And one should never handicap themselves. But if you don't believe enough in a CB to use it without the ending pre-written, what good is it?

Edited December 27, 2009 by bigwoody

[Dochartaigh]

To begin, I think a time line from someone within Zero Hour would be really helpful to this discussion. Mhawk says one thing, Athens says another, that would be very useful.

The nature of the split between ZH and TPF, as it has been corroborated by every member of TPF leadership that I have seen post, was highly personal. If Polaris asked Nueva Vida to buy tech and sell it to Polaris, and then we canceled our treaty and started hating one another, I would not assume that deal was still on. If we asked MK to match our nuke count by this date, and then we canceled our treaty, I would not assume that deal was still on (these examples are far more draconian than we would ever say to our allies). If the mandate of ZH was to destabilize Athens and TPF and ZH ceased communicating, if I was in TPF I would assume they gave that up. And even if they did not, TPF was no longer involved.

well the one thing with that, is it gives even more reason for TPF to come forward but according to Felix, ZH were still friends despite this little split.

The attitude of Polaris is irrelevant to the war itself, and our leadership and our outlook has changed vastly since then. Either way, Polaris did not sign GATO's GWIII peace terms and we were not responsible for enforcing them, which was the justification for Pacifica's declaration. We were bound by the Ordinance and One Vision to assist, and at a time when we were trying to restore relations, we were happy to help.

i get all that mate. though i did forget we did not sign their GWIII peace terms.

I agree that both spying and generally attempting to destroy alliances are wrong. I think the DoW was impulsive and did not take into consideration other possibilities. Like I said, there was no urgency here, the TPF did not need to be destroyed without any consultation or diplomatic attempts. The Declaration of War is not wrong, and if TPF had actually benefited from this, or if Athens had actually been hurt by this, I would be entirely behind the war. But no one was hurt, nothing happened, and TPF's stupid plan failed completely.

so again, it boils down to the fact that it failed and thus, is irrelevant? hardly. it does not matter if the plan failed or succeeded. it only matters that the plan was made and started.

I again agree with you that TPF probably would have attacked Athens if their positions were reversed. But we are talking about an alliance that not only supported the attack on Ordo Verde (I think) but also supported the attack on Hyperion. Generally speaking, their capacity for making good decisions seems to be pretty limited, which is further corroborated by this whole debacle. Nonetheless, I do not think they should be on the receiving end of their own tyrannical policies. I was someone that believed in the change in the world view after the Karma War that was sort of destroyed by the Athens-Knights of Ni affair, that Karma was not about ideals but instead politics. The pre-Karma world staged these sort of stunts, beatdowns over outdated information or contrived scandals. I still hope the post-Karma world is more based on reason.

i guess it entirely depends on the reasoning you want. the arguments against this war have thus far been:

1) it is okay because TPF was at war

2) it is okay because Athens was at war

3) it is okay because the plan failed

4) it is okay because FAN and Vox did it

5) it is okay because it is at least 5 months old

((it being the attempted spying/destroying Athens))

if that is the reasoning you want, then i hope to god it never comes to that.

I think the peacemode function is pretty stupid and its consequences should be more severe for nations that enter it. I think its existence alters the foreign affairs of this game as they would otherwise exist in a negative way, and I think that if the peace mode function did not exist, Athens and Ragnarok would have been more likely to try diplomacy.

i cannot entirely agree to this as peacemode lends itself to strategy as well as just ensures that people who do not want to be attacked cannot be attacked (i.e. unaligned for example would now be completely at the mercy of us ebil tech-raiders without a real hope of rebuilding and being able to stay unaligned).

[potato]

Yes but at no point did it affect Athens and co in anyway, they were not wronged in anyway. They are declaring this because TPF took a few steps that did not affect Athen in any shape. All TPF did was create a new alliance(which some people disagree with anyway.

and again with my hypothetical rogue situation: "I am planning to go rogue on Athens and have bought a few soldiers for this purpose am I now a target because I planned something and then set it into motion.

Also a few of TPF's allies are intenting to attack you, I am sure that enough cb for you to pre empt them right?

Remind me, how exactly was OV hurting you before you hit them?

[Proko]

If TPF's intent was gone, they would've recalled their sleepers.

I do not know the details of the personal problems between mhawk and ZH, but presumably it precluded returning, or enforced ZH's desire not to return. I am just speculating, though.

[silentkiller]

Your hypothetical rogue situation is just about the stupidest analogy I've ever seen. Creating mole alliances is a clearer signal of intent than buying soldiers.

NOU?

but how much clearer can my intent be when I am telling you they are intended to be used on Athens? Also back to the main point why isnt the supposed "sleeper cell" under attack? after all they are the main people who took action in this sorry episode.

Remind me, how exactly was OV hurting you before you hit them?

But you see Ov did wrong us(debateable I know, and I mself am of the opinion that they didnt) whereas all TPF did was intend to wrong someone but never actually did it. Their extent f harmin Athens was to give them a protectorate.

Edited December 27, 2009 by silentkiller

[Caffine]

If TPF's intent was gone, they would've recalled their sleepers.

The sleeper cell had long since lost its sleeper cell status, as they had stopped communication and terminated their relationship with the parent.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Caffine1

[tamerlane]

Depends. Probably yes.

Now, if you intended in the past to do something but never did? Good question. Probably not.

A good measure of a CB is if it would be used with victory not assured. Would this war have been started without victory assured?

Yes. yes. yes. So only the powerful prey on the weak, blah blah blah. It doesn't matter whether victory is assured or not. You can argue that nobody would have declared war if TPF still had Pacifica in its former glory or any of the other ~ people but you're merely arguing the hypothetical. If the threat was enough to risk war over, then the CB was justified. Anyone who has gone to war with TPF knows they are not an easy target and I doubt someone woke up and said, "today sounds like a good day to war!"

The event was in the past. However, this was not a "hit and run" but a meticulous and time consuming plot. Instead of not mentioning it, it would have only benefited TPF to have disclosed what they were planning so that it did not bite them in the butt.

Edited December 27, 2009 by tamerlane

[WarriorConcept]

Well, essentially now you're going on a he said, she said as to past intent.

Are you saying mhawk's past intent was not to harm athens?

(I have no idea what the wolfpack war is and would rather stick to the topic at hand)

[Chief Savage Man]

The sleeper cell had long since lost its sleeper cell status, as soon as they stopped communication with the parent.

Just because TPF is incompetent and picked the wrong guy to head their sleeper cell doesn't make them innocent.

[Bob]

The sleeper cell had long since lost its sleeper cell status, as soon as they stopped communication with the parent.

Doesn't that make it a sleeper cell even more?

A sleeper cell doesnt communicate back for fear of being caught, they wait for their activation to come.

More a comment on sleeper cells than the situation at hand.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[Dochartaigh]

Cmon.....are you really going to elawer and say that TPF was not at war with the entire Karma side?

We surrendered to the forces of Karma....no?

i do not remember Gremlins signing the peace treaty... if ya'll were truly at war with all of Karma, then how come the limited number of alliances that signed ya'lls peace treaty?

if this is the case, then !@#$, TPF is still at war with Gremlins, Athens, and many, many other alliances that never once signed your peace terms and thus obviously did not agree to give TPF peace.

which in that case, this war is obviously justified as the war never ended between TPF and Athens/Rok.

[JBone]

This is a really important point and its one that has not been especially clarified. Has anyone from Zero Hour stated whether or not they continued on their goal after TPF stopped communicating with them? I have seen no evidence either way, but it's pretty critical at least to my own perspective. If Zero Hour continued to operate as it was intended, it would certainly change things, at least as far as I'm in.

To the best of my knowledge, ZH obtained the protectorate under genuine terms. The plan had been shelved long before that came to being.

MM....when the members of the sleeper cell drop trow and shout kiss my tiny bits.....the cell is no longer connected to the parent.

[WarriorConcept]

I do not know the details of the personal problems between mhawk and ZH, but presumably it precluded returning, or enforced ZH's desire not to return. I am just speculating, though.

You're speculating as to whether the intent was gone without proof of the intent being gone, but the intent's main plan being put into motion?

The sleeper cell had long since lost its sleeper cell status, as soon as they stopped communication with the parent.

Do you not know what a sleeper cell is?

[Merrie Melodies]

This is a really important point and its one that has not been especially clarified. Has anyone from Zero Hour stated whether or not they continued on their goal after TPF stopped communicating with them? I have seen no evidence either way, but it's pretty critical at least to my own perspective. If Zero Hour continued to operate as it was intended, it would certainly change things, at least as far as I'm in.

The point being is it was a sleeper cell, hell it could have sleep for 12 months before taking action so that argument is mute.

Sticking with the three points this sleeper was not recalled, no argument can be made it was. This sleeper was not destroyed, no argument can be made that it was and this sleeper was not exposed until it did so itself two days ago, once again no argument can be made that it was.

TPF claiming the sleeper hand a fall out with its handler and they simply wrote them off does not change any of the facts, IMO all it does is show incompetence.

The only question in my mind is, did this sleeper expose its self with intent to start a war and complete its mission?

Edited December 27, 2009 by Merrie Melodies

[bigwoody]

Are you saying mhawk's past intent was not to harm athens?

(I have no idea what the wolfpack war is and would rather stick to the topic at hand)

Certainly. The question is, if the OOC fallout with ZH's members had not occurred, did he intend for the harm to span past the end of the war?

Probably. But its far from certain.

[Proko]

1) it is okay because TPF was at war

2) it is okay because Athens was at war

3) it is okay because the plan failed

4) it is okay because FAN and Vox did it

5) it is okay because it is at least 5 months old

You know, we only disagree on one or two points and it totally changes our perspectives here. I think points 1, 2, and 4, are all false and should not be considered. I think point 3 is only marginally helpful, because if point 3 was not true then I think the case here would be a lot stronger: that is, if Athens could show some way in which TPF actually benefited from this espionage, or some way that Athens was hurt, and I would be pretty liberal defining manners that an alliance could be hurt by espionage.

Point 5 has the gist of what I think is the main argument here, which is starting to seem more like a fundamental divide in our diplomatic philosophies than anything else. It is not that 5 months passed so much as the operation had stopped and that nothing was gained. This decreases the urgency for war (such as "they are spying on us, we need to attack them so they will stop.") Instead, Athens had as much time as they needed to work out a solution and present to the world evidence that they at least tried to avoid fighting. An attempt to avoid conflict would score points with me, because as a result of this war, good alliances like IRON may suffer. TPF is certainly guilty, and I am not attempting to exonerate them, I just don't think the war was necessary at this stage.

[WarriorConcept]

Certainly. The question is, if the OOC fallout with ZH's members had not occurred, did he intend for the harm to span past the end of the war?

Probably. But its far from certain.

The OOC fallout is not the question. The question is if the intent for the plan which was started was ever called back. You're claiming an OOC argument to be the end of an IC plan.

[tamerlane]

Certainly. The question is, if the OOC fallout with ZH's members had not occurred, did he intend for the harm to span past the end of the war?

Probably. But its far from certain.

So you expect RoK and Athens to just take his word? The same one that concocted this wonderful plan during peace negotiations? You are quite the trusting person.

[JBone]

i do not remember Gremlins signing the peace treaty... if ya'll were truly at war with all of Karma, then how come the limited number of alliances that signed ya'lls peace treaty?

if this is the case, then !@#$, TPF is still at war with Gremlins, Athens, and many, many other alliances that never once signed your peace terms and thus obviously did not agree to give TPF peace.

which in that case, this war is obviously justified as the war never ended between TPF and Athens/Rok.

I would think the Voice of Karma signature on the document sorta covers all that doch.

[ChairmanHal]

You do realize that 2burnt2eat was saying that Athens had stored up the CB and that's why AirMe flipped out because 2burnt2eat was being ridiculous.

So long as you are good with me pointing out that your CB is flawed irrespective of when you found out about TPF's alleged shenanigans, any point that 2burnt2eat has is kinda moot, and we'll get along fine.

But I get what you are saying. No tinfoil hats here.

[Archon]

Cmon.....are you really going to elawer and say that TPF was not at war with the entire Karma side?

We surrendered to the forces of Karma....no?

You went after an alliance you were not directly fighting and took zero steps to ensure that your creation was not going to continue to cause harm once you surrendered.