Athens Declaration of War

[Alterego]

You are clearly misinformed. As I said, all DoWs including the initial ones on NPO were first run through me. We did not have a blanket ODP/OAP. As I've said, I wish we did, it would of made life unbelievably easy for me.

How about this?

On this day, the alliance of Dark Fist, would like to issue declaration of war on the Nusantara Elite Warriors. The reason for the war is pretty simple; We're on one side, they're on another...of the same war. We got word that some alliances fighting NEW could use some backup, and so we're going to provide it. DF is not an alliance which needs a piece of paper as an excuse to do what's right and help out some friends. In b4 e-laywers.

[HalfEmpty]

Does Karma still hurt?

Do the attacks of this morning still hurt?

Wtf? That's not what I said at all. I mean, ya, I think they should get rolled for that, but that's not what I said. I said that an ancient CB was used by TPF so a not-so-fresh one being used against them is hardly grounds for dismissal.

I don't think GOD, RoK, \m/, or Athens have claimed to be any kind of crusaders for any kind of righteousness. I certainly am not claiming to be one either.

LOL!

You still got them black duds dude?

It was hilarious and fun.

I sorry if you no like us anymore.

[Captain Flinders]

LOL!

You still got them black duds dude?

It was hilarious and fun.

I sorry if you no like us anymore.

Is it just me or is this guy getting less and less coherent?

[LiquidMercury]

How about this?

Obviously, DF did not follow orders, and later rescinded it iirc. If people just went around DoWing on random people it would of been an even larger issue due to the fact that MHA had said it will not tolerate bandwagoners and a blanket ODP/OAP would, as pez said earlier, result in allies being at war with each other legally.

[HalfEmpty]

Less, but quicker, unliker yourself.

[Matthew Conrad]

Is it just me or is this guy getting less and less coherent?

He's always been half incoherent. It probably stems from his inability to form a real argument and thinks if he posts something that people don't understand it will somehow make him look smart.

[HalfEmpty]

Obviously, DF did not follow orders, and later rescinded it iirc. If people just went around DoWing on random people it would of been an even larger issue due to the fact that MHA had said it will not tolerate bandwagoners and a blanket ODP/OAP would, as pez said earlier, result in allies being at war with each other legally.

Of course, that goes without saying.

[HalfEmpty]

He's always been half incoherent. It probably stems from his inability to form a real argument and thinks if he posts something that people don't understand it will somehow make him look smart.

Can't beat that for a stone cold whiner of an argument.

[Matthew Conrad]

Can't beat that for a stone cold whiner of an argument.

Apparently I'm whining now?

[Bob]

Fair point. I'm going to go ahead and argue for diplomacy, and the double standard by Athens here: KoN war. Athens of all people should be attempting diplomacy before they attack.

KoN war had nothing to do with spying, was just a bad tech raid basically. Here we have documented evidence against TPF, and the word of people who Athens believes they can trust.

This will inevitably come down to each side supporting its argument, as every war does.

[Alterego]

Obviously, DF did not follow orders, and later rescinded it iirc. If people just went around DoWing on random people it would of been an even larger issue due to the fact that MHA had said it will not tolerate bandwagoners and a blanket ODP/OAP would, as pez said earlier, result in allies being at war with each other legally.

Thats a big change from what you said earlier and if it was as well organised and controlled as you say then Karma was a single entity and although every alliance wasnt on the peace agreement it was one organisation controlled by people like you. That means peace was a total peace with Karma and not just the alliances who were actively engaged. Which is it, you were not one entity controlled by a small group who gave orders or it was a series of different wars not related to each other in a wider conflict?

Edited December 27, 2009 by Alterego

[pezstar]

This isn't about revenge, it's about the current situation. Athens is not mhawk, and should not aspire to be mhawk.

I agree, but I think the fact that this declaration is so long after the fact makes up for TPF's assumption of war during Karma.

That's a fair point, but an opposing point is also fair: TPF's assumption was clearly wrong.

[Dochartaigh]

Thats a big change from what you said earlier and if it was as well organised and controlled as you say then Karma was a single entity and although every alliance wasnt on the peace agreement it was one organisation controlled by people like you. That means peace was a total peace with Karma and not just the alliances who were actively engaged. Which is it, you were not one entity controlled by a small group who gave orders or it was a series of different wars not related to each other in a wider conflict?

wow, just wow. almost every war that involves multiple alliances, have some sort of organization and control otherwise you are bound to lose the war. this does not mean that if Athens never DoWed TPF and TPF never DoWed Athens, TPF can claim they were at war with Athens. you argument is just getting more and more ridiculous the longer you attempt to hold onto it.

TPF was never engaged with Athens thus Athens never signed the treaty. if we go with your argument that TPF and Athens were somehow at war, then they have been at war since the Karma war as Athens never signed a peace treaty with TPF. so, essentially Athens could have declared on TPF at anytime since they were never officially peaced out of the Karma war by your argument.

and that is why your argument fails hardcore.

[HalfEmpty]

Apparently I'm whining now?

You win! I never had a chance.

[mythicknight]

You win! I never had a chance.

None at all.

[LiquidMercury]

Thats a big change from what you said earlier and if it was as well organised and controlled as you say then Karma was a single entity and although every alliance wasnt on the peace agreement it was one organisation controlled by people like you. That means peace was a total peace with Karma and not just the alliances who were actively engaged. Which is it, you were not one entity controlled by a small group who gave orders or it was a series of different wars not related to each other in a wider conflict?

The DoW's in the beginning were organized and controlled by me. I do consider Karma a singular entity for the sake of this. I believe that when TPF surrendered they surrendered to all those who fought on the Karma side. I have never said that Karma was a series of different wars unrelated. I have always said that Karma did not form beforehand in any sense of military matters until NPO hit OV. I have always said that no legal document tied all of Karma together. The fact that people listened to me in regards to who DoW'ed who and when was a matter of respect for Archon and I. They were under no legal obligation. I do feel as though TPF did get peace though. Obviously others do not see it this way, I am simply giving my views as someone who has more information in regards to Karma military affairs then anyone else (though there are some that do have a lot of info/understanding as well).

Do I feel as though this is justified? Not particularly. To me it's a wartime offense that was cleared. Do I understand why Athens and everyone else is pissed? Yes. Spying is a crappy thing to do. Do I think TPF deserves to pay the price twice? No. I'd like to see Athens/RoK/Sparta/\m/ walk away the bigger people and just say, "well what you did was lame, it was done during war time, we're not you, we're not what you stood for for so long, we're the bigger people then you are and we're just going to leave it at that. Next time we may not be so nice."

That's just my views and thoughts on this whole thing. At the end of the day what I say matters little, but I do hope that at the very least, this isn't a trend. What if NPO comes back up and big and bad again and says, "Well LM, you made war on us, you ordered all sorts of destruction and mayhem and coordinated half of CN against us, we're going to roll you" Now that'd be fun for me but I wouldn't agree with the reasoning behind it. Roll me for a mistake that I make. Roll me because I go rogue on an entire alliance when I hit 32350 tech. But not for that.

/me steps off his pedastal.

Cheers and beers to all and a happier [ooc] Christmas to you then I've had [ooc]

[Lincongrad]

KoN war had nothing to do with spying, was just a bad tech raid basically. Here we have documented evidence against TPF, and the word of people who Athens believes they can trust.

I'm using the KoN example as a reason why Athens should realize the value of diplomacy, because it's what saved their butts.

This will inevitably come down to each side supporting its argument, as every war does.

Inevitable. Kinda sad, actually.

[Bob]

I'm using the KoN example as a reason why Athens should realize the value of diplomacy, because it's what saved their butts.

However, we have differing circumstances here, different alliances involved. NpO went to Athens and said something because NpO is allied to a lot of Athens friends, right? Diplomacy works when people are allied, not when they are not tied (you can't go within a step from TPF to Athens, no allies are allied) and Athens has absolutely no reason to believe a word that comes out of mhawk's mouth.

Inevitable. Kinda sad, actually.

It is how people are. You tend to believe those closest to you, regardless of the accuracy of what they are stating.

[Trinite]

Do I feel as though this is justified? Not particularly. To me it's a wartime offense that was cleared. Do I understand why Athens and everyone else is pissed? Yes. Spying is a crappy thing to do. Do I think TPF deserves to pay the price twice? No. I'd like to see Athens/RoK/Sparta/\m/ walk away the bigger people and just say, "well what you did was lame, it was done during war time, we're not you, we're not what you stood for for so long, we're the bigger people then you are and we're just going to leave it at that. Next time we may not be so nice."

That's just my views and thoughts on this whole thing. At the end of the day what I say matters little, but I do hope that at the very least, this isn't a trend. What if NPO comes back up and big and bad again and says, "Well LM, you made war on us, you ordered all sorts of destruction and mayhem and coordinated half of CN against us, we're going to roll you" Now that'd be fun for me but I wouldn't agree with the reasoning behind it. Roll me for a mistake that I make. Roll me because I go rogue on an entire alliance when I hit 32350 tech. But not for that.

I'd agree with you if those negotiating peace knew about this at the time. This is hardly the run of the mill war time strategy. Something like this isn't like nukes, in-game spying, or even sanctioning. There was no way for those negotiating peace to know about this and probably more importantly, Athens wasn't even in the room. It be more like NPO coming back to power and finding out that you had tried to infiltrate their alliance during the karma war in order to destroy them from the inside. TPF had a lot of people going to bat for them to get them terms that they wouldn't have had if this had been known. They don't get away with it just because nobody knew about it until now or because it failed. This wasn't what they got peace for.

[Nobody Expects]

The DoW's in the beginning were organized and controlled by me. I do consider Karma a singular entity for the sake of this. I believe that when TPF surrendered they surrendered to all those who fought on the Karma side. I have never said that Karma was a series of different wars unrelated. I have always said that Karma did not form beforehand in any sense of military matters until NPO hit OV. I have always said that no legal document tied all of Karma together. The fact that people listened to me in regards to who DoW'ed who and when was a matter of respect for Archon and I. They were under no legal obligation. I do feel as though TPF did get peace though. Obviously others do not see it this way, I am simply giving my views as someone who has more information in regards to Karma military affairs then anyone else (though there are some that do have a lot of info/understanding as well).

Do I feel as though this is justified? Not particularly. To me it's a wartime offense that was cleared. Do I understand why Athens and everyone else is pissed? Yes. Spying is a crappy thing to do. Do I think TPF deserves to pay the price twice? No. I'd like to see Athens/RoK/Sparta/\m/ walk away the bigger people and just say, "well what you did was lame, it was done during war time, we're not you, we're not what you stood for for so long, we're the bigger people then you are and we're just going to leave it at that. Next time we may not be so nice."

That's just my views and thoughts on this whole thing. At the end of the day what I say matters little, but I do hope that at the very least, this isn't a trend. What if NPO comes back up and big and bad again and says, "Well LM, you made war on us, you ordered all sorts of destruction and mayhem and coordinated half of CN against us, we're going to roll you" Now that'd be fun for me but I wouldn't agree with the reasoning behind it. Roll me for a mistake that I make. Roll me because I go rogue on an entire alliance when I hit 32350 tech. But not for that.

/me steps off his pedastal.

Cheers and beers to all and a happier [ooc] Christmas to you then I've had [ooc]

Well said, I think this is the way any reasonable denizen of Bob sees this, and that the aggressors have flung themselves into war without much consideration or forethought.

[Ejayrazz]

The DoW's in the beginning were organized and controlled by me. I do consider Karma a singular entity for the sake of this. I believe that when TPF surrendered they surrendered to all those who fought on the Karma side. I have never said that Karma was a series of different wars unrelated. I have always said that Karma did not form beforehand in any sense of military matters until NPO hit OV. I have always said that no legal document tied all of Karma together. The fact that people listened to me in regards to who DoW'ed who and when was a matter of respect for Archon and I. They were under no legal obligation. I do feel as though TPF did get peace though. Obviously others do not see it this way, I am simply giving my views as someone who has more information in regards to Karma military affairs then anyone else (though there are some that do have a lot of info/understanding as well).

Do I feel as though this is justified? Not particularly. To me it's a wartime offense that was cleared. Do I understand why Athens and everyone else is pissed? Yes. Spying is a crappy thing to do. Do I think TPF deserves to pay the price twice? No. I'd like to see Athens/RoK/Sparta/\m/ walk away the bigger people and just say, "well what you did was lame, it was done during war time, we're not you, we're not what you stood for for so long, we're the bigger people then you are and we're just going to leave it at that. Next time we may not be so nice."

That's just my views and thoughts on this whole thing. At the end of the day what I say matters little, but I do hope that at the very least, this isn't a trend. What if NPO comes back up and big and bad again and says, "Well LM, you made war on us, you ordered all sorts of destruction and mayhem and coordinated half of CN against us, we're going to roll you" Now that'd be fun for me but I wouldn't agree with the reasoning behind it. Roll me for a mistake that I make. Roll me because I go rogue on an entire alliance when I hit 32350 tech. But not for that.

/me steps off his pedastal.

Cheers and beers to all and a happier [ooc] Christmas to you then I've had [ooc]

Well said.

[lakerzz8]

lolwut?

Basically the CB for this war is "These guys came and told us that there protector sent us to spy on us." LOL, thats like if STA went to NpO and said "Athens said to merge with you and spy" then Frostbite blitzed Athens, Come on now.

Maybe next time you should ask TPF first. Especially when there was no direct danger to your alliance in the mean time. If there was spies in your gov't ranks, thats a different story. These guys were supposively these horrible "spys" and not even in your AA and you dont even ATTEMPT to talk to TPF about it. Then again, the Knights of Ni! went through the same thing. Does Athens use diplomacy at all? Whos your MoFA, Does he have IRC? its a great tool to use and even if he cant find an IRC, he needs to try and fix his ingame messages!

Sorry if this was already addressed, but since he was talking directly to me, I'd like to reply directly to him.

Your analogy regarding the STA/NpO/Athens does not seem to work. I take it STA=ZH, NpO=Athens, and Athens=TPF? Show me how many former Athens government members went on to form the STA. And if you had logs of Londo telling those former government members to destroy NpO, I would take that pretty seriously, if I were NpO.

The KoN did not go through the same thing. That was a tech raid on a larger scale than the world thought was acceptable. I don't see how the two compare. Athens never claimed to have a valid CB against KoN other than tech raid.

Their MoFA is Jgoods and is an awesome guy.

[Alterego]

The DoW's in the beginning were organized and controlled by me. I do consider Karma a singular entity for the sake of this. I believe that when TPF surrendered they surrendered to all those who fought on the Karma side. I have never said that Karma was a series of different wars unrelated. I have always said that Karma did not form beforehand in any sense of military matters until NPO hit OV. I have always said that no legal document tied all of Karma together. The fact that people listened to me in regards to who DoW'ed who and when was a matter of respect for Archon and I. They were under no legal obligation. I do feel as though TPF did get peace though. Obviously others do not see it this way, I am simply giving my views as someone who has more information in regards to Karma military affairs then anyone else (though there are some that do have a lot of info/understanding as well).

Do I feel as though this is justified? Not particularly. To me it's a wartime offense that was cleared. Do I understand why Athens and everyone else is pissed? Yes. Spying is a crappy thing to do. Do I think TPF deserves to pay the price twice? No. I'd like to see Athens/RoK/Sparta/\m/ walk away the bigger people and just say, "well what you did was lame, it was done during war time, we're not you, we're not what you stood for for so long, we're the bigger people then you are and we're just going to leave it at that. Next time we may not be so nice."

That's just my views and thoughts on this whole thing. At the end of the day what I say matters little, but I do hope that at the very least, this isn't a trend. What if NPO comes back up and big and bad again and says, "Well LM, you made war on us, you ordered all sorts of destruction and mayhem and coordinated half of CN against us, we're going to roll you" Now that'd be fun for me but I wouldn't agree with the reasoning behind it. Roll me for a mistake that I make. Roll me because I go rogue on an entire alliance when I hit 32350 tech. But not for that.

/me steps off his pedastal.

Cheers and beers to all and a happier [ooc] Christmas to you then I've had [ooc]

Wow Im speechless, well said.

[Penkala]

I've got an idea!

Let's suddenly attack an alliance for stuff they may have[1] done during[2] the LAST WAR which we already made peace for[3] (and which they still haven't recovered from[4]), on Christmas weekend[5], without warning[6], and with multiple alliances much stronger than them[7].

YAY! We'll be the biggest bunch of cowards this side of the cyberverse!!

YAY!

Oh wait. Someone already did this.

Way to bully! What should we call you guys "Hegemony II"?

1: They did do, not 'may have done'.

2: A war in which they never fought (and the plan continued after the war, too).

3: Just because you surrendered from one war doesn't mean your sins after that time are forgiven. And I'm quite sure you didn't pay reps for attempting to internally destroy several communities.

4: So? Since when do we have to let you recover from a war to your pre-war NS to fight you?

5: So? Your fault for diving into peacemode at the sound of war... yet again. If you hadn't they wouldn't be rolling until tonight. Suck it up, you knew that by fleeing to peacemode they'd attack.

6: So? How many times did TPF give notice to alliances they would be attacking? Specifically, alliances they were going to attack that had fled int peace mode last time and are fleeing into peace mode again?

7: Please tell me the last time TPF started an even war. I'll wait.

[Bob]

The DoW's in the beginning were organized and controlled by me. I do consider Karma a singular entity for the sake of this. I believe that when TPF surrendered they surrendered to all those who fought on the Karma side. I have never said that Karma was a series of different wars unrelated. I have always said that Karma did not form beforehand in any sense of military matters until NPO hit OV. I have always said that no legal document tied all of Karma together. The fact that people listened to me in regards to who DoW'ed who and when was a matter of respect for Archon and I. They were under no legal obligation. I do feel as though TPF did get peace though. Obviously others do not see it this way, I am simply giving my views as someone who has more information in regards to Karma military affairs then anyone else (though there are some that do have a lot of info/understanding as well).

Do I feel as though this is justified? Not particularly. To me it's a wartime offense that was cleared. Do I understand why Athens and everyone else is pissed? Yes. Spying is a crappy thing to do. Do I think TPF deserves to pay the price twice? No. I'd like to see Athens/RoK/Sparta/\m/ walk away the bigger people and just say, "well what you did was lame, it was done during war time, we're not you, we're not what you stood for for so long, we're the bigger people then you are and we're just going to leave it at that. Next time we may not be so nice."

That's just my views and thoughts on this whole thing. At the end of the day what I say matters little, but I do hope that at the very least, this isn't a trend. What if NPO comes back up and big and bad again and says, "Well LM, you made war on us, you ordered all sorts of destruction and mayhem and coordinated half of CN against us, we're going to roll you" Now that'd be fun for me but I wouldn't agree with the reasoning behind it. Roll me for a mistake that I make. Roll me because I go rogue on an entire alliance when I hit 32350 tech. But not for that.

/me steps off his pedastal.

Cheers and beers to all and a happier [ooc] Christmas to you then I've had [ooc]

War is a part of the Cyberverse. This is a solid reason as you stated, and they acted on it.

This is not a wartime offense for the reasons that have been discussed over and over again, being that TPF was not at war with Athens or RoK.