Athens Declaration of War

[King Chill I]

Terrible analogy that doesn't merit a real argument. Let's stick to what actually happened

I'd have to quote doitzel here and remind you that this is about the intent, and that such intent to harm Athens was never proven to be quelled.

This wasn't about rolling an alliance. It was about a long term plan to infiltrate their community. TPF started this plan and never called it off, therefore they still carried the intent to harm Athens. Just because this plan was foiled doesn't mean that they might not have other plans in the works.

I guess we wont agree on the "calling off" part since i dont think TPF had any power to call off anything with an alliance they were on bad terms with. If thats the CB its a lame technicality.

Intent is a wholly different story but again in this case you cant use the "not calling off" as a excuse to prove it.

Although you dont ever really need to prove anything if you can just do it, we are pretty much arguing for arguments sake here.

Finally by your logic NPO and friends had every right to roll GATO for the CK thingy way back when. That also was a technicality that showed a certain intent not beneficial to the parties involved. I hope you or those that support your logic didnt go around crying about it back then (you might have been on your hiatus back then though).

[Kevin McDonald]

I guess we wont agree on the "calling off" part since i dont think TPF had any power to call off anything with an alliance they were on bad terms with. If thats the CB its a lame technicality.

Did they have the power to approach Athens and say "hey, this thing has gotten out of our control, so here's a heads up"?

[Xiphosis]

Finally by your logic NPO and friends had every right to roll GATO for the CK thingy way back when. That also was a technicality that showed a certain intent not beneficial to the parties involved.

WarriorConcept (myself, and others) were in/allied to WUT at the time of that war, so.

[kevin32891]

<Baldr> So Karma Athens went to war to defend spies, they took your rep payments, and now that you paid your reps, they roll you, claiming you are spies. That about sum it up?

Lol you beat me to it... Fixed it for you...

You're so sweet thank you.

[WarriorConcept]

Yes but the operation began during the karma war. Athens and TPF were on opposite sides of a conflict. If Athens is "obliging and kicking their $@! for it while making sure they don't try this again", then isn't this a tad bit late? Also, wouldn't this mean that the claim of "defending" ones self (from the quote you provided) from an ongoing operation is false?

Well Athens can't really control when they get their information, can they? Also no, they're defending themselves from mhawk's intent, which was proven to be real by his whole plot to sabotage an alliance he wasn't at war with.

I'm not arguing that TPF didn't spy. I'm arguing that the basis for this DoW :

rests on the words of the former spies and Athens' "history". Is there any hard evidence that TPF is still conducting the operation? So far, I haven't seen any. I don't understand the claim of defending ones self when there is no enemy.

The words aren't up for debate. The logs and intent of mhawk have been proven as genuine and even mhawk hasn't argued that those logs are false. Attacking the characters of the people is a pointless in this case, as the validity has been all by confirmed by even the accused party. The enemy is clearly the party that was trying to harm Athens, TPF.

[Hayzell]

It was done during wartime, but the 2 alliances were not at war.

ZH and TPF kept talking till after the karma war ended.

The intent of harm towards towards Athens was never shown to have ended, rather the whole long term plan helped prop the belief that TPF wants to harm Athens. Knowing what Athens did and having the logs as proof they decided to show mhawk that they shouldn't mess with Athens, especially with such an underhanded scheme.

If intent is what is important here, as you say, shouldn't it then be noted that TPF's intent was to hurt its enemies while it was at war? It doesn't make sense to say that the Karma war is completely unrelated to TPFs intent and initiation of its plans.

Again, this happened in August, and even within Athen's own DoW it is said this all ceased by August. Now, if we agree that overt hostilities ended at this time, what intent of malice are you holding TPF responsible for? Were they thinking bad thought about Athens and Raganorok, or what?

So upon finding out about a long since aborted act of war, Athens decided to go headfirst into war, right? Again, the benevolence is lacking here. In the last month the world has come fairly close to war several times, for real acts of aggression that happened during peacetime, yet diplomacy won the day because when rational people sit down and talk a solution is usually found. Yet, Athens decided to forgo etiquette and go straight to war. And this is questionable.

[WarriorConcept]

I guess we wont agree on the "calling off" part since i dont think TPF had any power to call off anything with an alliance they were on bad terms with. If thats the CB its a lame technicality.

They shouldn't have started it to begin with, they were never at war.

Intent is a wholly different story but again in this case you cant use the "not calling off" as a excuse to prove it.

Although you dont ever really need to prove anything if you can just do it, we are pretty much arguing for arguments sake here.

Actually that's a very good excuse, as his intent was shown to be genuine.

Finally by your logic NPO and friends had every right to roll GATO for the CK thingy way back when. That also was a technicality that showed a certain intent not beneficial to the parties involved. I hope you or those that support your logic didnt go around crying about it back then (you might have been on your hiatus back then though).

I did roll GATO back then

[WarriorConcept]

If intent is what is important here, as you say, shouldn't it then be noted that TPF's intent was to hurt its enemies while it was at war? It doesn't make sense to say that the Karma war is completely unrelated to TPFs intent and initiation of its plans.

Except, Athens and TPF were never at war.

Again, this happened in August, and even within Athen's own DoW it is said this all ceased by August. Now, if we agree that overt hostilities ended at this time, what intent of malice are you holding TPF responsible for? Were they thinking bad thought about Athens and Raganorok, or what?

The intent of malice was proven by the operation being hatched and started.

So upon finding out about a long since aborted act of war, Athens decided to go headfirst into war, right? Again, the benevolence is lacking here. In the last month the world has come fairly close to war several times, for real acts of aggression that happened during peacetime, yet diplomacy won the day because when rational people sit down and talk a solution is usually found. Yet, Athens decided to forgo etiquette and go straight to war. And this is questionable.

I'll make sure to keep that in my mind when I make my micro alliance to sabotage TOP then "forget" to call it off.

[Omniscient1]

o/ Athens

clock just struck zero TPF.

[Dochartaigh]

If intent is what is important here, as you say, shouldn't it then be noted that TPF's intent was to hurt its enemies while it was at war? It doesn't make sense to say that the Karma war is completely unrelated to TPFs intent and initiation of its plans.

Again, this happened in August, and even within Athen's own DoW it is said this all ceased by August. Now, if we agree that overt hostilities ended at this time, what intent of malice are you holding TPF responsible for? Were they thinking bad thought about Athens and Raganorok, or what?

So upon finding out about a long since aborted act of war, Athens decided to go headfirst into war, right? Again, the benevolence is lacking here. In the last month the world has come fairly close to war several times, for real acts of aggression that happened during peacetime, yet diplomacy won the day because when rational people sit down and talk a solution is usually found. Yet, Athens decided to forgo etiquette and go straight to war. And this is questionable.

for one, the war ended in July so if August was when the plan was aborted, then TPF kept it up after the war ended. two, had TPF been sincere bout ending the operation, going to Athens would have been a sign of this sincerity. so obviously, the only reason a timeframe is being made as an argument is because TPF wanted Athens destroyed and thus kept quiet in the hopes or knowledge that ZH would continue on as planned.

as for actions taken during peacetime, there was peace in August as the war ended in July, so this is an act of aggression done during peacetime.

also, why is it questionable that Athens went to war when diplomacy would only have allowed TPF to slip into peacemode while they gave the same run around they are attempting to give now? also, why does everyone put it on Athens to have to do diplomacy when it was TPF who failed to use diplomacy in the first place and tell Athens about ZH? i don't understand why all of you think that Athens should have used diplomacy when it was obvious that TPF cared nothing for diplomacy and only wanted to see Athens destroyed.

[Dochartaigh]

I'll make sure to keep that in my mind when I make my micro alliance to sabotage TOP then "forget" to call it off.

can i join?

[schuh]

<Baldr> So Karma Athens went to war to defend spies, they took your rep payments, and now that you paid your reps, they roll you, claiming you are spies. That about sum it up?

Lol you beat me to it... Fixed it for you...

That about sums it up.Turn the page Athens.

[WarriorConcept]

can i join?

Sure but we have to break relations down the path

[der_ko]

If intent is what is important here, as you say, shouldn't it then be noted that TPF's intent was to hurt its enemies while it was at war? It doesn't make sense to say that the Karma war is completely unrelated to TPFs intent and initiation of its plans.

Again, this happened in August, and even within Athen's own DoW it is said this all ceased by August. Now, if we agree that overt hostilities ended at this time, what intent of malice are you holding TPF responsible for? Were they thinking bad thought about Athens and Raganorok, or what?

So upon finding out about a long since aborted act of war, Athens decided to go headfirst into war, right? Again, the benevolence is lacking here. In the last month the world has come fairly close to war several times, for real acts of aggression that happened during peacetime, yet diplomacy won the day because when rational people sit down and talk a solution is usually found. Yet, Athens decided to forgo etiquette and go straight to war. And this is questionable.

1. Mhawk could not possible expect this infiltration to influence the karma war as it was since long decided. The only conclusion you can draw is that is was intended to be a long term project to be continued after the karma war.

2. At no point did Mhawk try to abort the infiltration. It was only aborted once his subjects refused to obey him.

How does Mhawks failure to accomplish the set out goals absolve him from being punished for his malicious intentions?

Edited December 28, 2009 by der_ko

[Hayzell]

Except, Athens and TPF were never at war.

That's a nice soundbyte, but it doesn't really answer the question: wasn't TPF's operation a direct result of it being in the Karma war? If you don't wish to acknowledge that the war was fought via coalitions, you can at least acknowledge that TPF did, and as intent is based on the perpertator's thought process, their intent was clearly related to the war. Again, this is why diplomacy is so useful, as the different perspectives come out before war and a satisfactory solution may be reached. But if you're not even willing to see things from the other side's perspective (there are always two sides)for a moment and try alternatives then in my opinion that makes you a warmonger.

The intent of malice was proven by the operation being hatched and started.

No, there's an argument in the CB and that you've continued that says TPF's malice and aggression continued even after August. But I'm left wondering exactly what form this malice and aggression was.

I'll make sure to keep that in my mind when I make my micro alliance to sabotage TOP then "forget" to call it off.

If it were under the same circumstances I would hope Council would consider its options before throwing us, our allies, you, your alliance, and your alliance's allies into war. However, I'm not gov and do not speak for TOP.

[Dochartaigh]

Sure but we have to break relations down the path

well if it must be so, it must be so.

[Dochartaigh]

That's a nice soundbyte, but it doesn't really answer the question: wasn't TPF's operation a direct result of it being in the Karma war? If you don't wish to acknowledge that the war was fought via coalitions, you can at least acknowledge that TPF did, and as intent is based on the perpertator's thought process, their intent was clearly related to the war. Again, this is why diplomacy is so useful, as the different perspectives come out before war and a satisfactory solution may be reached. But if you're not even willing to see things from the other side's perspective (there are always two sides)for a moment and try alternatives then in my opinion that makes you a warmonger.

so then TOP and IRON were at war with one another since TOP joined in on Karma's side and IRON was on the opposite side? wait, i doubt TOP would want to acknowledge that.......

[Hayzell]

for one, the war ended in July so if August was when the plan was aborted, then TPF kept it up after the war ended. two, had TPF been sincere bout ending the operation, going to Athens would have been a sign of this sincerity. so obviously, the only reason a timeframe is being made as an argument is because TPF wanted Athens destroyed and thus kept quiet in the hopes or knowledge that ZH would continue on as planned.

as for actions taken during peacetime, there was peace in August as the war ended in July, so this is an act of aggression done during peacetime.

also, why is it questionable that Athens went to war when diplomacy would only have allowed TPF to slip into peacemode while they gave the same run around they are attempting to give now? also, why does everyone put it on Athens to have to do diplomacy when it was TPF who failed to use diplomacy in the first place and tell Athens about ZH? i don't understand why all of you think that Athens should have used diplomacy when it was obvious that TPF cared nothing for diplomacy and only wanted to see Athens destroyed.

I'm not saying they didn't $%&@ up at all. I'm just saying under these circumstances I don't see why diplomacy was throw out of the window.

Also, the argument that diplomacy would have allowed them to enter PM is odd. If you enter diplomacy in good faith you try to reach a resolution without force of arms, i.e. reps, asking mhawk to step down, or whatever the parties could agree to. Further, just because TPF didn't show class in this situation doesn't mean its attackers shouldn't have either.

[WarriorConcept]

That's a nice soundbyte, but it doesn't really answer the question: wasn't TPF's operation a direct result of it being in the Karma war? If you don't wish to acknowledge that the war was fought via coalitions, you can at least acknowledge that TPF did, and as intent is based on the perpertator's thought process, their intent was clearly related to the war. Again, this is why diplomacy is so useful, as the different perspectives come out before war and a satisfactory solution may be reached. But if you're not even willing to see things from the other side's perspective (there are always two sides)for a moment and try alternatives then in my opinion that makes you a warmonger.

No, there's an argument in the CB and that you've continued that says TPF's malice and aggression continued even after August. But I'm left wondering exactly what form this malice and aggression was.

Coalitions are just names given to each side of a conflict, each alliance is still sovereign as proved by the headache in the karma peace process. If you also followed the other thread you'll have seen that jbone admits they started thinking about the plan before the karma war started. Thus their intent reached before the war, and since talks between ZH and TPF carried over till after the war, the intent went beyond that as well.

And yes, I understand there will always be a devil's advocate. Funny enough it always seems to be TOP when war is concerned.

If it were under the same circumstances I would hope Council would consider its options before throwing us, our allies, you, your alliance, and your alliance's allies into war. However, I'm not gov and do not speak for TOP.

There are always options available, there is where individual thought and understanding of history and your opponents come into play in order to take the best option for your alliance and allies.

[Dochartaigh]

I'm not saying they didn't $%&@ up at all. I'm just saying under these circumstances I don't see why diplomacy was throw out of the window.

Also, the argument that diplomacy would have allowed them to enter PM is odd. If you enter diplomacy in good faith you try to reach a resolution without force of arms, i.e. reps, asking mhawk to step down, or whatever the parties could agree to. Further, just because TPF didn't show class in this situation doesn't mean its attackers shouldn't have either.

honestly, if i $%&@ed up as bad as mhawk, the moment Athens came to me, i would be sending nations into PM. why? simple because if for any reason, negotiations go south, you now have nations in PM that can aid later on.

also, given the attitude of TPF, it would have gone south quickly as they aren't acknowledging any wrongdoing whatsoever.

[WarriorConcept]

I'm not saying they didn't $%&@ up at all. I'm just saying under these circumstances I don't see why diplomacy was throw out of the window.

Also, the argument that diplomacy would have allowed them to enter PM is odd. If you enter diplomacy in good faith you try to reach a resolution without force of arms, i.e. reps, asking mhawk to step down, or whatever the parties could agree to. Further, just because TPF didn't show class in this situation doesn't mean its attackers shouldn't have either.

They felt they had enough proof and enough of a reason to need to declare war, just like every alliance, including your own, who's declared war in the past.

[Dochartaigh]

They felt they had enough proof and enough of a reason to need to declare war, just like every alliance, including your own, who's declared war in the past.

i would agree, i honestly don't recall TOP or anyone else coming to Polaris and attempting diplomacy when the SPW (WotC) happened? instead i recall a lot of plotting and trying to get NPO to finally drop the OoO. hell, even when Grub was made Emperor, i do not recall any true diplomatic efforts made whatsoever to stop the war before it began. yet, here we have TOP condemning something they have done in the past.....

[WarriorConcept]

i would agree, i honestly don't recall TOP or anyone else coming to Polaris and attempting diplomacy when the SPW (WotC) happened? instead i recall a lot of plotting and trying to get NPO to finally drop the OoO. hell, even when Grub was made Emperor, i do not recall any true diplomatic efforts made whatsoever to stop the war before it began. yet, here we have TOP condemning something they have done in the past.....

Funny enough I don't remember TOP asking for diplomacy either when it helped start GWIII over a photoshopped image...

[Dochartaigh]

Funny enough I don't remember TOP asking for diplomacy either when it helped start GWIII over a photoshopped image...

i forgot about that.

[Hayzell]

They felt they had enough proof and enough of a reason to need to declare war, just like every alliance, including your own, who's declared war in the past.

They are certainly within their rights to do so, as am I to criticize them for it. I'll repeat, I'm not speaking on behalf of TOP, I'm just a citizen in its democracy passing time on a Monday. In any event, have fun, I'll just stop for now or this might start going in circles.