From someone who's been on both sides

[Bob Janova]

Give me a break, Bob.

One break awarded. Have a KitKat! (I probably shouldn't have got into the discussion at all in an OOC forum since it's so hard to separate hard facts from one's opinions about the facts.)

Why d you left anyway, if you don't mind me asking?

Personal issues and getting tired of facing the same problems for so long – time for some new challenges. Plus my nation looks better in Green

[Iotupa]

Plus my nation looks better in Green

Everyone looks better in Green. Too bad Green itself is still terrible compared to what it once was.

[Coursca]

Interesting take, The AUT. I kinda like it.

Although the ensuing discourse has been most unfortunately skewed by whining about past injustices.

Threads in which current TOP members participated in judgments on who remained on PZI: (mostly Coursca, but some Crymson and Bodvar Jarl too)

OH LAWDY, I'm so embarrassed by this. I'm gonna go hang myself now because I can't deal with the shame of being an EZI'er.

Right.

I love how this is meant to embarrass when, in reality, I happily discuss my time in IRON rather candidly with anyone who asks. I'm not embarrassed by anything I did, though I do deeply regret what happened to Polaris. I now have several friends and acquaintances there with whom I enjoy speaking and I have made my feelings on the WotC absolutely clear to them.

I don't deny any of my actions. Far from it: I accept what happened. Some nasty stuff happened when we worked with NPO. I take responsibility for my part. I EZI'd a number of folks who took up the Vox banner. That was our determined strategy for dealing with the insurgency in the early stages, and that's what we did.

Vox had their weapons (the PR war, a spy network, and Doitzel's silver tongue), we had ours (denying Vox members the ability to have infrastructure in war mode while said PR war was being conducted, attempting to discredit Vox members, making it a political liability to publicly side with Vox). A lot of nasty stuff happened on both sides. That's the reality. Sh--tuff happens.

Seriously, though, what did you expect us (as in Q leadership) to do? Blast sunshine and puppies up your arses? Let you go off and win without us trying to stop you? HURR! Even you have to know how ridiculous that sounds.

Maybe EZI is "wrong." But then again, we forget the simple fact that...its...*gasp*...a game on the Internet played from a browser -- the questions of 'right' and 'wrong' are pretty irrelevant (oh yeah, I said it -- this is me biting my thumb at how utterly ridiculous discussions of morality have gotten in this game recently) when dealing with these pixels.

Vox made their choices, we made ours, and they won because they just plain outplayed us. Since then, I carried no ill-will toward the members of Vox -- in fact, they were incredibly worthy opponents and it was probably the most fun I've had in this game: trying to figure out what they'd do next and how to stop them.

[Crymson]

I'd say owning Coalition leadership accounts on the Just Cause forums, participating in judgments on who remains on PZI/EZI and who doesn't, remaining MDP partners with all the alliances involved, insistence upon retaining the right to PZI and EZI people, and never voicing discontent with the practice of PZI or EZI provides a strong indication that TOP supported those actions. Of course they aren't going to make a statement like 'we support PZI and EZI' because no alliances did that, including the ones who supported such practices. But whether or not someone supports a policy is evident from their actions.

Threads in which current TOP members participated in judgments on who remained on PZI: (mostly Coursca, but some Crymson and Bodvar Jarl too)

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t138.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t156.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t136.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t150.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t149.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t131.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t153.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t151.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t152.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t148.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t143.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t146.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t137.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t147.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t134.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t124.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t144.htm

http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Just_Cause/ar/t31.htm

How quick alliances are to deny their actions when their policies are no longer popular. Hell, even the New Pacific Order denies having practiced EZI these days. If you want to practice PZI or EZI, fine. But have some backbone and own responsibility for what you've done when it's not fashionable any more.

As noted, Coursca was a member of IRON at that time. Per the involvement of Bodvar and I, Bodvar's single appearance on your list takes the form of him saying that TOP has no issue with some fellow from Vox---pretty universal from us, and we only participated in that as a matter of form---whilst the only place in which I appear on your list is in a thread in which I tell a PoW from the NpO that the war's end means that he's free to leave the PoW AA.

I don't see your point.

[Iotupa]

...

As someone who was in Vox Populi for all of four days, after which I left due to being disgusted with some of their actions, I posed absolutely no threat whatsoever to IRON. Yet you chose to keep me on e-ZI and let people such as King Srqt, Cheyenne, and others far more involved and for far longer off relatively unscathed. So as far as a "strategy" went, it was fairly selectively applied when and where you wanted it. That kind of makes me question the entirety of your post, really.

Also, whether this is a game or not, there is still right and wrong. That's a staple of humanity in general, the ability to distinguish between the two.

[The AUT]

As noted, Coursca was a member of IRON at that time. Per the involvement of Bodvar and I, Bodvar's single appearance on your list takes the form of him saying that TOP has no issue with some fellow from Vox---pretty universal from us, and we only participated in that as a matter of form---whilst the only place in which I appear on your list is in a thread in which I tell a PoW from the NpO that the war's end means that he's free to leave the PoW AA.

I don't see your point.

Here you are, Crymson.

[Comrade Craig]

I disagree here,

if we are to use the chess analogy it would be like playing the game and allowing one side to have three or more times as many pieces.

War is not an honorable match between sportsmen here, it is a slaughter nothing more, nothing less.

There is no honor or glory in beating a opponent you outnumber many times.

This is an OOC forum, and I was speaking out of character. From a purely emotional standpoint, I had fun. I made friends. No regrets, no apologies.

The karma war was not a military victory, it was a diplomatic and organizational victory.

The military component of the war was a forgone conclusion from day one, Karma would win by sheer weight of numbers if nothing else and only gross incompetence could of made it otherwise.

This analysis has become quite fashionable, but it's also somewhat untrue. When LEO fired the first shots of our counterattack, the outcome was hardly guaranteed. There were many variables outside of control. Things could have gone much differently if not for some brilliant strategic decisions Karma command. You cannot separate the planning and organization from execution. The go hand-in-hand.

-Craig

[Penkala]

That's still not forcing them to disband. Being hit while you're unstable may lead to your disbanding, but it doesn't mean you were forced to disband.

Yeah, that's a terrible argument because in reality you can't make anyone disband. But you can create a scenario in which disbanding is the best option, and to do so is reprehensible.

[cookavich]

Yeah, that's a terrible argument because in reality you can't make anyone disband. But you can create a scenario in which disbanding is the best option, and to do so is reprehensible.

So, in your mind declaring war on someone is reprehensible? Your view is either interesting or ignorant. I"m gonna go with the latter.

[Crymson]

Here you are, Crymson.

Edit: Forget it; this fellow is just looking for attention.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Crymson

[Johjima]

I'm 99% sure Genmay never entered surrender talks.

We attempted to surrender. The terms were unacceptable.

NpO to Gen[M]ay:

Be our tech farm for the next two years. Or longer.

Gen[M]ay:

lool

/disband

Thank you for your time.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Johjima

[Penguin]

And Genmay. And yes, he made them disband as much as NPO ever made anybody disband. So knock off the act.

I have discussed this with a fair amount of former Genmay members who have told me otherwise. Unfortunately, there aren't many left in Polar that would remember exactly what happened. Most accounts I've seen claim that Genmay's internal problems at the time of the disbandment was the primary cause. As far as I know, there was no discussion of surrender terms aside from perhaps BotS demanding 250 million(?). As I said before, I could be wrong because I am basing this off of discussions with individual members, such as the following (among other private conversations):

Yeah, it wasn't really harsh surrender terms or anything that did us in. Our entire gov collapsed after that OOC stuff happened. People were dropping out of the war left and right and we no longer had anything that even remotely resembled order or leadership.

I also don't think the terms leveled against genmay were that bad. I remember BOTS told us to pay 250m. While that was admittedly a lot of cash back then, it's really not that much. The disbandment of Genmay was not caused by a demand of 250m dongs, nor was it caused by any one person or alliance making us disband.

Edit: No matter how you feel about it, it was a blessing in disguise anyway. I'd much rather be in Umbrella than Genmay.

I don't doubt NpO had a tough time and beat it, but Genmay was not NpO, nor am I accusing you of forcing a disbandment. We were just unwilling/uncapable of fighting on, so no terms at that time basically gave us the option of 1. quitting 2. disbanding and getting on with ourselves, but that was a result of internal issues, not because NpO put a gun to our head and said we had to disband. Look, I just don't see the masses whining about our disbandment, nor do the [m]embers really give a crap by this point. I mean, its 2 years ago, Umbrella is fine (or TOP or Gre or DE or wherever else we ended up) and I don't really mind that Genmay is gone anymore. I guess I am alone in considering disbandment a valid tactic, but to each his own.

Hmm, getting out of peace mode right now with Genmay, finally free at last, or having a blast for the last 1.5 years in Umbrella, I find the choice to we made to be the better one.

I think I said that earlier actually.

Here, just for the record:

I, mrcalkin, formerly of the alliance Genmay, do not consider Genmay to have been disbanded by force but by our own personal choice.

but, I think that situation, like all situations, was not very black and white, so if that's the big deal, then yes, we were not forced to disband.

If other former members of Genmay that I haven't spoken with feel the need to blame someone for their disbandment to be at peace then I am happy to oblige. We were certainly the public face of that front. I personally remember getting along very well with a lot of them shortly after the war and they seemed generally not upset about the disbandment though they were a bit more upset about the original motivations and especially the rhetoric behind the war effort.

Nonetheless, I understand that it can be helpful to have a physical entity to blame when you are grieving and since whether or not Polaris was responsible has become irrelevant in terms of modern politics they are more than welcome to it. I simply haven't seen a lot of people accusing Polaris of this one before Penkala and I'm not sure his view is actually all that widely accepted.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Penguin

[WarriorConcept]

Everyone looks better in Green. Too bad Green itself is still terrible compared to what it once was.

I wonder who helped make that happen.

[Iotupa]

I wonder who helped make that happen.

I hope you are not insinuating I had anything to do with that.

[flak attack]

I hope you are not insinuating I had anything to do with that.

Your signature implies you did:

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...showtopic=70166

[Iotupa]

Your signature implies you did:

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/...showtopic=70166

Yeah, let me give you a little insight into the government structure of the GGA: literally nothing matters except what the Triumvirate wants to do. I had absolutely nothing to do with the decision to attack everyone in the Emerald Affairs.

[lonewolfe2015]

What I have to say is rather simple.

What you're saying here is pretty naive and seems like an attempt at grabbing attention.

[The AUT]

What I have to say is rather simple.

What you're saying here is pretty naive and seems like an attempt at grabbing attention.

Very insightful post that adds to the discussion and doesn't play to the CN crowd, well done.

[Penkala]

So, in your mind declaring war on someone is reprehensible? Your view is either interesting or ignorant. I"m gonna go with the latter.

Fine. We'll cross Genmay off the list. Polar still forced alliances to disband, which is my point. Going to argue that one, too?