Avalon Lodges a Formal Complaint

[spearo]

I don't really understand some of the responses. Avalon made a polite request to be left out of election spam. At the very least Stickmen could just politely reply with "sorry, but it's too much trouble to sort through search results" and get on with their election. There's no need to bash Avalon's political sensibilities even if you disagree with them.

Perhaps it was them saying we are neutral leave us out of it followed by them actually going and telling their members to vote for the PEACE candidates?

GearHead, we weren't messaging Avalon or any other alliance, It was a blanket message to all purple nations as sovereign nations.

[Stetson76]

Further, I fail to see how this is something that has certain purple government types up in arms: it is an attempt by a group of alliances that are not in the majority to get a senator. Cool. If anything I have to agree that this is a commendable example of coordination, as Imperial has stated earlier. This is not an 'attempt at subversion' or anything like that. If Purple Unity members vote for them well then that is clearly Purple Unity's fault for not being clearer in their messages.

I told myself I was going to stay out of this after playing a bit earlier, but I do have address this point.

Coordination would be getting all of their members to vote for their candidate. It is in fact subversion to try and convince a member of an alliance to vote against the policies of the treatied agreements. Yes, everyone has free will, and even better, no accountability in this situation, but the fact remains that as a member of Invicta, or BAPS, or Legion or any of the other Purple Unity alliances that received these messages are bound by treaty to support the Purple Unity senators.

Whether they vote in accordance with their treaty obligations or not, asking a member of those alliances to not do so is subversion.

I will concede however that although it is subversion, no one, not even Avalon in the OP has suggested that anything should be done about it other than inform Sickmen that they don't want to receive their senate spam.

...it is an attempt by a group of alliances that are not in the majority to get a senator. Cool.

To further discect your quote, I agree with this 100%, just not the methodology and would further suggest that this was not the only motive in sending out these messages.

[Iosif]

It's pretty obvious that you contact an alliance's Govt before you mass PM them about anything. Obviously Stickmen doesn't care.

Yeah! But as a responsible government member of the Stickmen bloc, I should make sure you understand that not all of us are so rude; I, for one, warn the governments of PEACE everytime I'm sending my trade circle spams all around purple.

[Molleh]

Perhaps it was them saying we are neutral leave us out of it followed by them actually going and telling their members to vote for the PEACE candidates?

GearHead, we weren't messaging Avalon or any other alliance, It was a blanket message to all purple nations as sovereign nations.

This.

Also let me say this. Avalon went and made this public before contacting any Stickmen government from what I'm aware of.

If this was just to remind people they aren't in senate elections they don't need to include us in it at all.

Talk to gov, solve that problem in a few minutes.

For a post say "This is a friendly reminder to all nations that Avalon do not vote in senate and would appreciate not having any of our members on any amsg links."

Saves so much time typing and would hardly have this kind of response.

Anyhow I'm tired as our Soda factories have closed for the night leaving me with no caffeine. Therefore I shall sleep now.

(OOC: See my nation name is Sodas, that means me sleeping is in character as I'm relating it to my nation.. I think?)

[Locke]

Yeah! But as a responsible government member of the Stickmen bloc, I should make sure you understand that not all of us are so rude; I, for one, warn the governments of PEACE everytime I'm sending my trade circle spams all around purple.

You know, for having native uranium, I don't get this kind of spam; add me to your lists?

[Teriethien]

Perhaps it was them saying we are neutral leave us out of it followed by them actually going and telling their members to vote for the PEACE candidates?

How does that obligate Stickmen to respond wth "LOLOL or else what?"

It just balances the fact that Stickmen is asking Avalon member's for their votes. This is still a request asking Stickmen not to spam their nations in the future, and you sound like you're just upset that Avalon is now supporting PEACE candidates for this round.

EDIT: btw did their support came after or before this thread?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Teriethien

[Bones Malone]

Coordination would be getting all of their members to vote for their candidate. It is in fact subversion to try and convince a member of an alliance to vote against the policies of the treatied agreements. Yes, everyone has free will, and even better, no accountability in this situation, but the fact remains that as a member of Invicta, or BAPS, or Legion or any of the other Purple Unity alliances that received these messages are bound by treaty to support the Purple Unity senators.

Whether they vote in accordance with their treaty obligations or not, asking a member of those alliances to not do so is subversion.

I will concede however that although it is subversion, no one, not even Avalon in the OP has suggested that anything should be done about it other than inform Sickmen that they don't want to receive their senate spam.

I see what you're saying. It makes sense to me. I just respectfully disagree with it

However, as I am no longer a purple nation I suppose you would have a better understanding of this than I do. (OOC: I'm also glad you decided to jump in and write, I enjoyed reading your post)

To further discect your quote, I agree with this 100%, just not the methodology and would further suggest that this was not the only motive in sending out these messages.

I agree that the motives are probably numerous. That is actually my favorite part of this whole thing, because no one knows the motives except for Stickmen (all anyone has are guesses and the like). And since I believe my guesses are correct I recognize this as a brilliant political move.

[spearo]

I told myself I was going to stay out of this after playing a bit earlier, but I do have address this point.

Coordination would be getting all of their members to vote for their candidate. It is in fact subversion to try and convince a member of an alliance to vote against the policies of the treatied agreements. Yes, everyone has free will, and even better, no accountability in this situation, but the fact remains that as a member of Invicta, or BAPS, or Legion or any of the other Purple Unity alliances that received these messages are bound by treaty to support the Purple Unity senators.

Whether they vote in accordance with their treaty obligations or not, asking a member of those alliances to not do so is subversion.

I will concede however that although it is subversion, no one, not even Avalon in the OP has suggested that anything should be done about it other than inform Sickmen that they don't want to receive their senate spam.

To further discect your quote, I agree with this 100%, just not the methodology and would further suggest that this was not the only motive in sending out these messages.

Call it what ever you wish we are with in our rights to campaign a colour sphere in an attempt to gather votes for a candidate if we so choose. If we run a campaign and it so happens that purple nations who may be apart of PEACE treaty choose to vote for our candidate for whatever reason that is their choice and if you wish for them not to do so perhaps you should make sure to better inform them of this.

How does that obligate Stickmen to respond wth "LOLOL or else what?"

It just balances the fact that Stickmen is asking Avalon member's for their votes. This is still a request asking Stickmen not to spam their nations in the future, and you sound like you're just upset that Avalon is now supporting PEACE candidates for this round.

EDIT: btw did their support came after or before this thread?

Avalon's support came after this thread and their reasoning for supporting PEACE candidates was because we sent messages to purple nations who are also Avalon members, as such Stickmen were responding to the obvious lack of neutrality in that. As for the "LOLOL or else what?" comments im not sure what you are referring to perhaps they were in reference to Haflinger and not Avalon?

Edited October 8, 2009 by spearo

[spearo]

oops, edited into the above post.

Edited October 8, 2009 by spearo

[AvengerNL]

Avalon does not limit the freedom of choice of its members in any way at all!

Edited October 8, 2009 by AvengerNL

[rsoxbronco1]

Haf is also not in the chain of command and any threats or percieved threats from him mean little. I've already addressed this previously and offered my services to clear up any misconceptions about us in private. Or even public, if people want to go that way. And, to make this clear, Jorost is the only one who can make or approve military action that is not prompted by direct attack or attack of an MDP partner. In his absence, as he has been recently, Amonra has this power. You can all throw your delusions about Invicta going after Stickmen out the window right now.

If anyone needs me, you know where to find me.

So when the next senate reset comes around, should we be expecting a more strongly worded formal complaint?

[Stetson76]

...perhaps you should make sure to better inform them of this.

I agree.

I can assure you that as someone who truly was glad to see new alliances come to purple, you have fairly warned us as to your motives and intentions. You told us that you'd be going for a senate seat, and we said go for it. You told us that you weren't really interested in joing the Purple Unity blocs, then you maybe were...either way you're obviously now you're actively against them. That's all fine too. We have a few alliances on purple, such as Avalon, that decide to not participate and as you can see by the turnout in this thread, we respect and like them just the same. And now, you have given fair warning that not only do you now want to engage purple in peaceful co-existence, but instead prefer to work against our unity at every turn possible.

Fair enough, we are fully informed.

I was naive and didn't expect that I had to warn my members that someone may be trying to convince them to not live up to their treaty obligations, but thank you for pointing out that we should add that to our senate notification procedures.

Thank you for the lesson in distrust. I'm a quick learner.

[Toraoji]

This argument is getting really old. Avalon's request has NOTHING to do with PU vs. Stickmen. Avalon is simply asking that everyone please refrain from spamming their members. The older members of purple agreed to this request a long time ago. The OP was simply asking the new members to purple to please respect the request as well.

The attempts by everyone to turn this into a debate about anything else is pointless. You all can debate the PU senate rotation vs. Stickmen's right to elect a candidate all you want, but it has nothing to do with the OP.

[Portugal]

This argument is getting really old. Avalon's request has NOTHING to do with PU vs. Stickmen. Avalon is simply asking that everyone please refrain from spamming their members. The older members of purple agreed to this request a long time ago. The OP was simply asking the new members to purple to please respect the request as well.

The attempts by everyone to turn this into a debate about anything else is pointless. You all can debate the PU senate rotation vs. Stickmen's right to elect a candidate all you want, but it has nothing to do with the OP.

Actually, since Avalon decided to pause their "neutrality" and support the PU candidate just to spite Stickmen, both issues have become linked, yeah.

[spearo]

So because stickmen wants a senator but does not wish to be a member of PEACE we are against purple unity?

[Toraoji]

Actually, since Avalon decided to pause their "neutrality" and support the PU candidate just to spite Stickmen, both issues have become linked, yeah.

except they didn't. they posted that they were siding with PEACE this election only because stickmen didn't honor their request. This doesn't link the issues at all. The issue here is that avalon doesn't want their members spammed. nothing else.

[erikz]

This is just a stupid complaint (I mean the general complaint, the complaint in the OP is a reasonable one).

If the PEACE alliances instructed their nations correctly about who to vote on, the Stickmen message would have been ignored by its sovereign nations. People voting for the Stickmen senator, who aren't members of a Stickmen alliance have been wrongly instructed by their alliances. This shows how disorganized peace actually is.

I don't know how other alliances roll, but in FOK we are instructed both on the forums and through in-game PM's who to vote for. This happens approximately a week before reset and a day (or two) before reset. This way you've instructed your member states, and if they are loyal they will vote for the candidate you've asked for.

No, this isn't Stickmen's fault at all, it's just taking the opportunity and use the disorganization present at other purple alliances.

(just my view).

[spearo]

except they didn't. they posted that they were siding with PEACE this election only because stickmen didn't honor their request. This doesn't link the issues at all. The issue here is that avalon doesn't want their members spammed. nothing else.

Yes they did, they are siding with peace so pausing their neutrality and they are doing it because we sent them messages which is to spite us for doing so. Also this thread is about our senate campaign so all other issues regarding it are directly linked.

[erikz]

except they didn't. they posted that they were siding with PEACE this election only because stickmen didn't honor their request. This doesn't link the issues at all. The issue here is that avalon doesn't want their members spammed. nothing else.

Where did Avalon request not to be send any messages before the announcement in the OP was made?

This is clearly a 'neutral' alliance taking sides in a non-conflict (this has been blown severely out of proportions).

[Portugal]

except they didn't. they posted that they were siding with PEACE this election only because stickmen didn't honor their request. This doesn't link the issues at all. The issue here is that avalon doesn't want their members spammed. nothing else.

In which way will siding with peace stop the messaging problem? If they were really in the messaging problem, they could of easily take care of it by a personal request to Stickmen, and maybe a public announcement warning other purple alliances not to do the same. But they arrive on the forums finely talking about their neutrality, only to reverse it in nothing more than petty revenge against the slight made by Stickmen.

The whole problem was about unsolicited messages, until Avalon's' decision to participate in the race, which caused all further discussion regarding PU (which is being a bit stretched, I agree, but not completely unrelated as of now).

[Sin]

From what I am reading many people seem to not take issue with messaging people for senate elections. Is that true? Does this mean I can mass message for every nation on the red team, for the senate elections, and have no repercussions?

[Stetson76]

If the PEACE alliances instructed their nations correctly about who to vote on, the Stickmen message would have been ignored by its sovereign nations. People voting for the Stickmen senator, who aren't members of a Stickmen alliance have been wrongly instructed by their alliances. This shows how disorganized peace actually is.

I don't know how other alliances roll, but in FOK we are instructed both on the forums and through in-game PM's who to vote for. This happens approximately a week before reset and a day (or two) before reset. This way you've instructed your member states, and if they are loyal they will vote for the candidate you've asked for.

Just for clarification's sake, we do (and at least the other members of PU claim they do as well) everything you've suggested here. We however have never had a guerilla campaign aimed at subverting our alliance obligations directed at us before. As I said in my last post, shame on me for not putting in a caveat that another alliance may be sending you a request to ignore our treaty obligations, please ignore it. I'm a quick study though and will make sure that doesn't happen again.

[Toraoji]

Yes they did, they are siding with peace so pausing their neutrality and they are doing it because we sent them messages which is to spite us for doing so. Also this thread is about our senate campaign so all other issues regarding it are directly linked.

(This also responds to a bunch of other people who quoted me )

Except it's not about the senate campaign. The senate campaign just brought the issue to light. The only issue here is Avalon's request not to be spammed. Stickmen can contend that such a request isn't valid, which they have. any debate in this thread should have stayed on that topic.

Avalon siding with PEACE or not siding with PEACE, Neutral or not Neutral are just deflecting the conversation away from the topic at hand. The OP isn't about the senate, it's about spamming an alliance that's asked not to be spammed.

As for when the request was made, it was made a long time ago via private channels. Stickmen weren't purple then, and thus wouldn't have know about the request. If you read the OP it sates that this announcement was made to formalize that request and make it known to everyone.

For the record, my alliance is also purple, and thus we were also spammed by stickmen. We are not signatories of PEACE, and thus our members are free to vote for whoever they wish to vote for. Granted, most vote for a PEACE representative out of respect for our UPN protectors. While the spam was annoying, it simply was what it was: a single PM. I trust my members to be intelligent enough to make up there own mind.

I'm not taking sides on this. I do think Avalon has the right to make the request that their members aren't spammed. Like it or not, it's their choice to run their alliance as they see fit, even if you feel it's sensorship. At the same time Stickmen are purple, whether the members of PEACE like it or not, and have the right to try and elect a senator.

Sic Vida (such is life)

[erikz]

From what I am reading many people seem to not take issue with messaging people for senate elections. Is that true? Does this mean I can mass message for every nation on the red team, for the senate elections, and have no repercussions?

If spamming was an issue FOK should have declared half of the nations in the Cyberverse.

[Benjamin Arouet]

From what I am reading many people seem to not take issue with messaging people for senate elections. Is that true? Does this mean I can mass message for every nation on the red team, for the senate elections, and have no repercussions?

You should move back to Maroon and mass message me, Sin. I'll vote for you.