Sin

I think that perceptions of what nation building is different for everyone. For me it is maximum readiness to deal with any threat or attack. It appears to be working.

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1311735889' post='2764673'] So now you want negotiations and you want it private? You're the one who decided to bring this to the OWF, you having second thoughts on the wisdom of such a move? If you wanted reps, you needed to negotiate for them at the end of the original raid. Once you choose to attack the Valhalla AA at large and choosing to be a general nuisance for the last few months you lost any chance at such a deal. [/quote] This discussion here is about the use of sanctions and not the end of a war. [quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311735972' post='2764675'] It has not been. If you look at the war history, IRON attacked him, then he was given a break and allowed to chill. He took advantage of that respite to rebuy nukes, and then attack a Valhalla nation. See the above. Its a "new development" for that organization to allow you the chance to do so, not out of any fear of you, but out of trying to give you a chance to end it. [/quote] Actually as I all ready stated I refused to recognize war with IRON and did not fight back. As I was unable to declare war while in anarchy Valhalla was not attacked during that time.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311735401' post='2764659'] Would you like to get on IRC to discuss it? [/quote] I am going to be unavailable tonight.

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1311734822' post='2764648'] What part of he doesnt want it 'made right' dont you get? He has not come off his demands of valhalla needing to change our charter to suit his needs and if you are suggesting changing a charter to 'make it right' with some outside influence you're mad.....as in bonkers. Id like to hear what your response to the same demand being made of VE would be? [/quote] I think it is quite normal for one to make a counter offer in such a case as ours. Which was not done till after this discussion was started. The offer being white peace. Something I cannot accept and have all ready expressed so. I have never stated I will not discuss a peace with your alliance. As far as I am concerned the ball is in your court. If you wish for more discussions about a potential peace deal you may contact me privately.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311733900' post='2764635'] I would hope so..I rather like CoJ and a move of that much stupidity from a member of theirs would be disheartening. Yawoo <3[/quote] These kind of statements suggest to me that people all too quickly group personal opinions with that of their alliances. It is very interesting that ones words can be grouped with their alliance but it appears their actions cannot as is the case we are discussing.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1311727041' post='2764519'] Please recruit people. I am bored and would like to war someone... [/quote] Haha I actually laughed. So The Dark Templar is going to bandwagon if I recruit? hahaha

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1311712588' post='2764392'] No [b]sanctions are used on rogue actions[/b] of non alliance nations....like you. Valhalla has fought in a majority of wars here on Bob and have never used a sanction in alliance v alliance combat. So you're statement is factually incorrect. [/quote] But that is not what you said before... You stated I would "...be fought using all tools and means at the alliances disposal" and also said that it did not matter if I was a rogue or not stating it as "...meaningLESS" So which is it? Sanctions are for rogues only or are they for everyone you wish to pseudo define as a rogue? And I suppose you believe I do not have rights given that I am one person and not a group. You know all I am getting from people when they state these ridiculous claims is that I need to do some recruiting...

First of all ChairmanHal, you need to stop comparing me to some lone gunman murdering people from a bell tower. It is very inappropriate. [quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1311684287' post='2764086'] Consider him to be whatever you want but the bottom line is he will be fought using all tools and means at the alliances disposal. So rogue, no rogue, blah blah blah....meaningLESS. Zero teching Sin in a few weeks? MeaningFULL. [/quote] Apparently it does not matter what the combatants allegiances are, sanctions are all ways fair game in wars according to Valhalla. I wonder how many other alliances agree with that... [quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1311703523' post='2764285']Though I wonder what would be said if it were NG instead of Valhalla as it seems we have attracted the attention of VE here in this thread. [/quote]So you recognize a few people of VE commenting on this topic as an act of their alliance yet you do not consider an attack by a few of your nations as an attack by your alliance.

It is true I would not have any problem fighting on with being sanctioned on every team in the game. I believe I am now with the exception of red. But what those that are opposed to what my position seem to still not understand is that it is not about me and my nation. Recognizing that it is acceptable to use sanctions in this flagrant manner will set a precedent. If it is deemed just now it will be deemed just forever. Valhalla lied to its allies. People talk about facts of our case a lot in this thread and this is one of them. They deceived their allies in a most dishonorable way and they have never denied it, ever. What Valhalla has done here is decided that I am a nuclear rogue and told several if not all of the senate holding alliances that. Those alliances were never given the opportunity to decide for themselves based on the facts of the situation. There are probably a lot of actual people that deserve sanctions and this kind of interaction between alliances requesting sanctions is most likely common. I do not really follow the sanctions list closely. I think that Valhalla knows this and decided to request the sanctions giving as little information as possible. Perhaps those with team senate seats could be more vigilant in the future. The biggest reason people join the alliance and the biggest reason alliances say to join them is security. Security from the unlawful barbaric realm of the nonaligned. Valhalla is not providing it for their members. A member of Valhalla has all ready said that these nations of [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=103911&view=findpost&p=2763150"]defenseless[/url] and another has deleted in, what was presumably, an act of frustration. It is getting increasingly hard to recognize a government that is unable to provide the fundamentals for its members. But I still invite them to come forward and address the points I have made here. I would just like to say this about IRON and the others. IRON had attacked me with a few nations about a month ago and began using Nuclear Weapons almost immediately. I have not retaliated in any way to those attacks. I do not recognize a state of war between myself and IRON. IRON and to a lesser extent the other alliances that have been lied to are the real victims in this case not me. Valhalla has alienated their relationships with all these alliances and their word will never be taken for granted again. The true impotence and dishonor of this alliance has now been shown for all to see.

I think I should point out that there were only two original attackers. A third came in support of the first two after I had begun to fight back. Again showing it being an attack by the alliance.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311575286' post='2763269'] An alliance declaration of war, decided by the leader of the alliance. Chefjoe is the only person in the alliance capable of declaring a war against an alliance (or a single nation, for that matter), while the marshal of war is capable of authorizing tech raids. One is war until peace is reached between alliances, while the other is peace between nations. You stretched out and instead of keeping at TRON IX and Jesper, made it into a war against their alliance. You were capable of keeping it between you three, so why didn't you if you didn't want to attack their alliance? [/quote] Their charter does say "The Regent is responsible for all facets of the alliance..." which would obviously include approving wars however it also explicitly says the Marshal can also do this. It says it in Article 1 Section 2 B which I have all ready said earlier and it can also be seen in Article 2 Section 2.1 C where it says "[t]he Marshal is responsible for all matters regarding military action." Given that is says all and not some I believe it means including declaring war. http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Charter_of_Valhalla

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311574935' post='2763263'] You can accept peace offers whenever you choose to, however your government may not be happy with you if you choose to do so. I think there is a separation of what is an act of war from a tech raid. Tech raids must be approved in order to confirm they are actually not aligned nations. Wars (being alliance v alliance war) must be approved because they involve the whole alliance. [/quote] So what must take place for an alliance to declare on a single nation? Can you even distinguish between the two?

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1311574243' post='2763253'] Then why the OWF topic complaining about what's happening to your nation? [/quote] I care about the sanctions being used the way they were and how they were brought about. It is unjust and sets a horrible precedent.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311573982' post='2763248'] They condone their actions by sending them aid and declaring an alliance war, or by offering you peace like they have been, which you ignore and attack them again? Difference between declaring war on you and tech raiding you. I find it hard to believe you are missing the point, and rather instead appear to be ignoring it in order to advance your own personal agenda. Enjoy, I won't be spending my time trying to help you since you are just being a martyr here, not actually looking for a solution. [/quote] My experiences when being in alliances is that you do not except peace offers until terms have been worked out. I can see your point quite clearly. You have presented it very nicely and attempted to [pun]tailor[/pun] it to this situation but it simply does not [pun]fit.[/pun] I suppose I must break this down even further for you and presumably others to understand. What is an act of war by an alliance? I believe it to be an attack sanctioned by the government of that alliance. This is not a rhetorical question.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1311573524' post='2763245'] Not really. Valhalla is nearing the 5 million NS mark and will pass it in the coming days. We will continue to grow in numbers, strength and on those occasions that you decide that you need attack us, we'll fix any damage you do and aid your target up quickly and easily such that they'll never be bothered with you again. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if we actually have nations in our lower mid-tier that [b]want[/b] to be attacked by you so they can get all that aide. You want war, you got it. Let's just leave it at that...and oh btw, we won't be fighting fair either. After you've spent $3.4 billion and have absolutely nothing to show for it but bill lock, we might even throw you a going away party. You see, you might [i]think[/i] you're a killing machine, but in reality you're really pretty impotent. A fool rushing about trying to make people feel sorry for you while you continue raging against us. You deserve no sympathy, no comfort, indeed no quarter. Have fun I guess? [/quote] Is this a joke? You actually just dodged everything I said and asked and you say this nonsense... You obviously do not get it. I DO NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY NATION! I have said that from the start. Please reread what I said an respond to my questions regarding your alliance's lying to your own allies.