Sin

I think that perceptions of what nation building is different for everyone. For me it is maximum readiness to deal with any threat or attack. It appears to be working.

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1311735889' post='2764673'] So now you want negotiations and you want it private? You're the one who decided to bring this to the OWF, you having second thoughts on the wisdom of such a move? If you wanted reps, you needed to negotiate for them at the end of the original raid. Once you choose to attack the Valhalla AA at large and choosing to be a general nuisance for the last few months you lost any chance at such a deal. [/quote] This discussion here is about the use of sanctions and not the end of a war. [quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311735972' post='2764675'] It has not been. If you look at the war history, IRON attacked him, then he was given a break and allowed to chill. He took advantage of that respite to rebuy nukes, and then attack a Valhalla nation. See the above. Its a "new development" for that organization to allow you the chance to do so, not out of any fear of you, but out of trying to give you a chance to end it. [/quote] Actually as I all ready stated I refused to recognize war with IRON and did not fight back. As I was unable to declare war while in anarchy Valhalla was not attacked during that time.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311735401' post='2764659'] Would you like to get on IRC to discuss it? [/quote] I am going to be unavailable tonight.

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1311734822' post='2764648'] What part of he doesnt want it 'made right' dont you get? He has not come off his demands of valhalla needing to change our charter to suit his needs and if you are suggesting changing a charter to 'make it right' with some outside influence you're mad.....as in bonkers. Id like to hear what your response to the same demand being made of VE would be? [/quote] I think it is quite normal for one to make a counter offer in such a case as ours. Which was not done till after this discussion was started. The offer being white peace. Something I cannot accept and have all ready expressed so. I have never stated I will not discuss a peace with your alliance. As far as I am concerned the ball is in your court. If you wish for more discussions about a potential peace deal you may contact me privately.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311733900' post='2764635'] I would hope so..I rather like CoJ and a move of that much stupidity from a member of theirs would be disheartening. Yawoo <3[/quote] These kind of statements suggest to me that people all too quickly group personal opinions with that of their alliances. It is very interesting that ones words can be grouped with their alliance but it appears their actions cannot as is the case we are discussing.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1311727041' post='2764519'] Please recruit people. I am bored and would like to war someone... [/quote] Haha I actually laughed. So The Dark Templar is going to bandwagon if I recruit? hahaha

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1311712588' post='2764392'] No [b]sanctions are used on rogue actions[/b] of non alliance nations....like you. Valhalla has fought in a majority of wars here on Bob and have never used a sanction in alliance v alliance combat. So you're statement is factually incorrect. [/quote] But that is not what you said before... You stated I would "...be fought using all tools and means at the alliances disposal" and also said that it did not matter if I was a rogue or not stating it as "...meaningLESS" So which is it? Sanctions are for rogues only or are they for everyone you wish to pseudo define as a rogue? And I suppose you believe I do not have rights given that I am one person and not a group. You know all I am getting from people when they state these ridiculous claims is that I need to do some recruiting...

First of all ChairmanHal, you need to stop comparing me to some lone gunman murdering people from a bell tower. It is very inappropriate. [quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1311684287' post='2764086'] Consider him to be whatever you want but the bottom line is he will be fought using all tools and means at the alliances disposal. So rogue, no rogue, blah blah blah....meaningLESS. Zero teching Sin in a few weeks? MeaningFULL. [/quote] Apparently it does not matter what the combatants allegiances are, sanctions are all ways fair game in wars according to Valhalla. I wonder how many other alliances agree with that... [quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1311703523' post='2764285']Though I wonder what would be said if it were NG instead of Valhalla as it seems we have attracted the attention of VE here in this thread. [/quote]So you recognize a few people of VE commenting on this topic as an act of their alliance yet you do not consider an attack by a few of your nations as an attack by your alliance.

It is true I would not have any problem fighting on with being sanctioned on every team in the game. I believe I am now with the exception of red. But what those that are opposed to what my position seem to still not understand is that it is not about me and my nation. Recognizing that it is acceptable to use sanctions in this flagrant manner will set a precedent. If it is deemed just now it will be deemed just forever. Valhalla lied to its allies. People talk about facts of our case a lot in this thread and this is one of them. They deceived their allies in a most dishonorable way and they have never denied it, ever. What Valhalla has done here is decided that I am a nuclear rogue and told several if not all of the senate holding alliances that. Those alliances were never given the opportunity to decide for themselves based on the facts of the situation. There are probably a lot of actual people that deserve sanctions and this kind of interaction between alliances requesting sanctions is most likely common. I do not really follow the sanctions list closely. I think that Valhalla knows this and decided to request the sanctions giving as little information as possible. Perhaps those with team senate seats could be more vigilant in the future. The biggest reason people join the alliance and the biggest reason alliances say to join them is security. Security from the unlawful barbaric realm of the nonaligned. Valhalla is not providing it for their members. A member of Valhalla has all ready said that these nations of [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=103911&view=findpost&p=2763150"]defenseless[/url] and another has deleted in, what was presumably, an act of frustration. It is getting increasingly hard to recognize a government that is unable to provide the fundamentals for its members. But I still invite them to come forward and address the points I have made here. I would just like to say this about IRON and the others. IRON had attacked me with a few nations about a month ago and began using Nuclear Weapons almost immediately. I have not retaliated in any way to those attacks. I do not recognize a state of war between myself and IRON. IRON and to a lesser extent the other alliances that have been lied to are the real victims in this case not me. Valhalla has alienated their relationships with all these alliances and their word will never be taken for granted again. The true impotence and dishonor of this alliance has now been shown for all to see.

I think I should point out that there were only two original attackers. A third came in support of the first two after I had begun to fight back. Again showing it being an attack by the alliance.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311575286' post='2763269'] An alliance declaration of war, decided by the leader of the alliance. Chefjoe is the only person in the alliance capable of declaring a war against an alliance (or a single nation, for that matter), while the marshal of war is capable of authorizing tech raids. One is war until peace is reached between alliances, while the other is peace between nations. You stretched out and instead of keeping at TRON IX and Jesper, made it into a war against their alliance. You were capable of keeping it between you three, so why didn't you if you didn't want to attack their alliance? [/quote] Their charter does say "The Regent is responsible for all facets of the alliance..." which would obviously include approving wars however it also explicitly says the Marshal can also do this. It says it in Article 1 Section 2 B which I have all ready said earlier and it can also be seen in Article 2 Section 2.1 C where it says "[t]he Marshal is responsible for all matters regarding military action." Given that is says all and not some I believe it means including declaring war. http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Charter_of_Valhalla

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311574935' post='2763263'] You can accept peace offers whenever you choose to, however your government may not be happy with you if you choose to do so. I think there is a separation of what is an act of war from a tech raid. Tech raids must be approved in order to confirm they are actually not aligned nations. Wars (being alliance v alliance war) must be approved because they involve the whole alliance. [/quote] So what must take place for an alliance to declare on a single nation? Can you even distinguish between the two?

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1311574243' post='2763253'] Then why the OWF topic complaining about what's happening to your nation? [/quote] I care about the sanctions being used the way they were and how they were brought about. It is unjust and sets a horrible precedent.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311573982' post='2763248'] They condone their actions by sending them aid and declaring an alliance war, or by offering you peace like they have been, which you ignore and attack them again? Difference between declaring war on you and tech raiding you. I find it hard to believe you are missing the point, and rather instead appear to be ignoring it in order to advance your own personal agenda. Enjoy, I won't be spending my time trying to help you since you are just being a martyr here, not actually looking for a solution. [/quote] My experiences when being in alliances is that you do not except peace offers until terms have been worked out. I can see your point quite clearly. You have presented it very nicely and attempted to [pun]tailor[/pun] it to this situation but it simply does not [pun]fit.[/pun] I suppose I must break this down even further for you and presumably others to understand. What is an act of war by an alliance? I believe it to be an attack sanctioned by the government of that alliance. This is not a rhetorical question.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1311573524' post='2763245'] Not really. Valhalla is nearing the 5 million NS mark and will pass it in the coming days. We will continue to grow in numbers, strength and on those occasions that you decide that you need attack us, we'll fix any damage you do and aid your target up quickly and easily such that they'll never be bothered with you again. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if we actually have nations in our lower mid-tier that [b]want[/b] to be attacked by you so they can get all that aide. You want war, you got it. Let's just leave it at that...and oh btw, we won't be fighting fair either. After you've spent $3.4 billion and have absolutely nothing to show for it but bill lock, we might even throw you a going away party. You see, you might [i]think[/i] you're a killing machine, but in reality you're really pretty impotent. A fool rushing about trying to make people feel sorry for you while you continue raging against us. You deserve no sympathy, no comfort, indeed no quarter. Have fun I guess? [/quote] Is this a joke? You actually just dodged everything I said and asked and you say this nonsense... You obviously do not get it. I DO NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY NATION! I have said that from the start. Please reread what I said an respond to my questions regarding your alliance's lying to your own allies.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311572588' post='2763236'] They aren't assisting on a tech raid, since you started the war against their alliance dude. See my above post. It was started as a tech raid by individuals, and you decided to expand it to their alliance. As a result, you became a rogue. They aren't lying to their allies, they are telling them exactly what happened. You may disagree with the fact that you are now a rogue because of you attacking their alliance, but that's how it is viewed by probably half of the game, the other half being more moral/against tech raids. To be clear, this is how it occured: Jesper/TRON IX raid you. You attack back. Not a rogue, just someone defending himself. You attack Valhalla after that war. Now you are a rogue, and a nuclear one at that. They are then entitled to the protection of their allies if necessary and yes, nuclear rogues are sometimes sanctioned. There is nothing wrong occurring here, just something that happens in the game. If you want out, then let me know. If not, don't complain about their methods to try to keep you from hurting them. [/quote] Let me out forward this scenario I have all ready mentioned to you. A few members of Valhalla's government decide to attack a member of The Dark Templar. You being the responsible person go and talk to their government to find out that that attack was approved by them. Their government stands behinds their members and condones all their actions in the war. Do you attack only those nations that attacked your alliance or the entire Valhalla alliance? What must it take for you to recognize an action has been taken by the alliance as a whole, what are the 'ingredients'? Valhalla's charter states under Article 1 Section 2 B. "Valhalla seeks for peace in the world. Therefore, member nations are forbidden from engaging in aggressive wars without prior approval from the Marshall", the Marshall being a government office would lead me to believe it was approved by the government therefor it is an action their alliance has taken. Their alliance attacked me and we are now at war. I did not declare war on their alliance. This would not have happened and we would not be here today discussing it if they had not attacked me. They brought this upon themselves. That much is clear. This is not a difficult concept to get.

To be clear. I did not post here to complain about being attacked or being in any war. I came here because I feel that this is too far and these sanctions should not have happened and more importantly, should not happen again in the future. Valhalla offered no monetary compensation for their attacks on me nor do I seek any. I am sure Valhalla knows full well I have a warchest bigger than every nation I have fought so far combined, but that is besides the point. This started out as an aggressive war on my by an alliance. I looked forward to flexing my muscles and doing some damage, as you can see from the logs RePePe has posted. By the way thanks for adding the dates for those. The logs depicting me lusting at the chance to fight are from days after the conflict started. The other logs talking about terms was after they sanctioned me the first time on the red sphere(when I was a member there). Everything including how the war will end does not really matter. This is about Valhalla not having the ability to defend itself and its willingness to lie to its allies in order to benefit itself in a war they began. I see a lot of people from Valhalla talking about how I am a rogue and whining about how I do not fight fair ect. but I do not see any of them denying they lied to their allies. So come here and tell me you did not lie. Tell me you told all those alliances that have sanctioned me on their respect teams the full story. You certainly did not tell Cult of Justitia the only time I was sanctioned by them... It appears IRON did not know either: [IMG]http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/1259/unledcut.png[/IMG]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1311561446' post='2763091'] So let me guess you were raided and then started attacking nations of Valhalla that were not a part of the raid and chose targets that did not have SDIs and started nuking them? And even now when you could be at peace you are still attacking them? If you had just defended yourself and nuked the raiders you would have been fine, raiding alliances allow that. By escalating it into attacks on nations not involved you pretty much opened the door for them to do as they will. [/quote] So somehow this makes me a nuclear rogue? I have been attacked; a senior member of their government has acknowledged that they did indeed attack me first. A rogue attacks people for whatever reason they please but usually for personal reasons. I do not think I qualify under the long standing definition of what a rogue is. Obviously you think differently about what a rogue is. Please share your reasons. But before you do I want to say this. I do not really care if you agree with my tactics in this war. Like it or not everyone all ready attempts to inflict as much damage as possible and exploit enemy weaknesses during any war, whether on the alliance level or nation level. The bottom line is this. Several members of an alliance attacked me and I recognize that I am now at war with that alliance. Show me anyone who would not consider members from one alliance attacking another alliance with their government supporting them an act of war.

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1311560615' post='2763081'] The only war you are in is an offensive one. [/quote] They attacked me on May 16th. Add Orange to the list!

It appears the alliances are banding together to sanction me sadface.jpeg It also appears their reasons are unfounded. Valhalla has been going around telling everyone I am a nuclear rogue. Which is not the case at all. Valhalla attacked me and I am defending myself. I have been here for some time and been around the block. I do not think it is appropriate to just sanction a nation when the attacking, tech raiding alliance is losing a war. That just is not cricket... And before you say "OMG THEY'RE NOT LOSING AND YOU'RE NOT WINNING!!!" think about this. I believe it is widely accepted that if an alliance is unable to fight a war they are deemed not to be winning. Also they have activated the Duckroll Project treaty with IRON citing "...other agreed upon cooperative initiatives" in article 1. Activating bloc treaty for one nation = lost. So my question is this: Will the alliances that have so far sanctioned me on Red, Yellow, Purple, Pink, Aqua, Green, and Black now remove the sanctions knowing the situation? Also for your consideration... [IMG]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1860/unled3cut.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8822/unled2cut.png[/IMG] One more thing. I would just like to say that Valhalla's actions are deplorable. Their membership should be ashamed of their government. Every alliance makes a decision on whether or not to tech raid and some choose to engage it the action knowing full well what consequences can come of it. Valhalla did this and now they are attempting to dodge their problems by manipulating other alliances through giving misleading information to them about the particulars of my case. There have all ready been many wars fought against oppression and unlawful tech raiding. We are supposed to be past this. It is time for Valhalla to man up and take their medicine lest they be cowards.

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' date='07 April 2010 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1270699880' post='2252711'] Hey Lions, where do you get off making our flag look inadequate? [/quote] Anthony posted that... He is in your alliance, New Sith Order.

Tigers > Lions Welcome to the fray

I think more people should not put up with trolls... Good on you The AUT. It was and honourable move, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

I pray to the almighty admin that IRON come out of peace mode and roll Gramlins like there is no tomorrow! ALL HAIL IRON o/ Make 'em squeal like pigs!

I recognise one of those flags and read none of this announcment. What does that tell you?