Why GOD and RIA cancelled on Nemesis

[shahenshah]

Solution here is extremely simple:

A GOD Govt member may come here and refute Terry's claims that he is not on any sort of xZI lists and people will remain to take Terry as they do.

(PS: Delta, I'll get back to your query the other day)

Edited October 6, 2009 by shahenshah

[SpiderJerusalem]

*sigh*

I respect you Blacky, you know I do, but this thread was unnecessary. I also disagreed with the potential disbandment of AB on a general principle, and I am certain I told everyone that mentioned that to $%&@ off.

However, this is not how you do things. When you're allied with someone you have disagreements, you have quarrels, but you also have agreements, you ride together and you keep the secrets that other tell you secret. That last point there, really never ends. You never, ever air dirty laundry of either current or former allies, because that dirty laundry became spoiled while you were allies.

I for one was saddened when RIA and GOD decided to cancel on Nemesis. I was saddened that we couldn't remain allies, even if we didn't agree upon everything. There are several people in both alliances that I respected and still do, and I really hoped that in the future, Nemesis would once again be close to both RIA and GOD. Because there is one thing I know, when you're allied to them, you never ride alone.

So, here's to you guys. Here's a toast to Xiph, BigZ, Delta and the rest. I am sorry it didn't work out and I am sorry this happened*

SpiderJ

*disclaimer: I am not a member of Nemesis any longer, but as a former government member and member until yesterday, I feel I have the right to speak up on this matter

[King Srqt]

So just as a quick recap here, according to Xiphosis, they joined Karma so they could kick some $@! (not necessarily a bad thing, but still unrelated to Karma's goals), and they still practice PZI.

For a guy who supported E-ZI for so long your moral outrage is laughable. OOC: If TH is still on any kind of ZI list (which I do not even know if he is) all he would have to do is re-roll under a different name. I know for a fact that Xiph does not practice E-ZI and will never chase anyone across accounts.

I don't like PZI but it least it is IC and does not stop anyone from playing

[Morte]

Since when does Freelancer represent Maroon as a a whole?

It's become quite clear that Maroon is completely evil.

Best of luck to all, even if that means you don't rediscover the bond that made you allies in the first place.

[Blacky]

I respect you Blacky, you know I do

That respect is reciprocated. That goes without saying.

...this thread was unnecessary. I also disagreed with the potential disbandment of AB on a general principle, and I am certain I told everyone that mentioned that to **** off.

It can't have been too many in that crowd as for the most part everybody opposed Xiphosis' decision. Again, this thread is entirely neccessary so these actions aren't conflated and used to highlight hypocrisy in the future. Also, in the event that more such information is revealed in the coming days.

When you're allied with someone you have disagreements, you have quarrels, but you also have agreements, you ride together and you keep the secrets that other tell you secret. That last point there, really never ends. You never, ever air dirty laundry of either current or former allies, because that dirty laundry became spoiled while you were allies.

It was hardly a secret. It was a policy decision that GOD was so adamant, subborn and vehement on that it caused unneccessary problems for everybody involved. What's more is that we don't ride together anymore -- especially when that road leads to unjust or immoral decisions such as forced disbandments.

[Goose]

Also if he change his IC ruler and nation, surely he is no long those people therefore should not be held accountable for those past actions ?

As I recall, there was quite a stink about GOD placing Terry Howard on their PZI list. I also seem to recall that there was no sentance beyond that of Terry Howard no longer being a nation leader. The player is free to start a new nation with a different name, and he will no longer be at war with GOD.

So by this, are you saying Maroon support PZI, IF I am not mistake wasn't this one of the reason Karma happened ?

OR was KARMA just another smoke screen and the real reason was to take down NPO ?

You are quite mistaken. I'd say the most common goal of everyone fighting was to not end PZI, but to end the hegemonic stranglehold that NPO had on the world or just get some revenge for what NPO had done to them in the past. Some were involved to climb up their ivory tower and shout down at the world about the greater good and being nice and such. Some were involved merely to honor treaties. PZI was not an issue, nor battlecry for Karma.

And, as to Maroon's stance on PZI, I can't comment for all of Maroon but CSN does not practice it. We do not outright support it. But, we will not lose a great friendship and ally because they practice it. So, I guess if you want to call our alliance with GOD as supporting PZI, I guess we do.

[Bob Janova]

So, I guess if you want to call our alliance with GOD as supporting PZI, I guess we do.

Well ... yeah. If you are allied with someone, you provide NS and military weight for them, and support their positions. Isn't that why many of the Hegemony alliances were included in the 'bill of hate', even though they didn't actually do most of the things that the Hegemony was infamous for? Hell, isn't that why everyone disliked NPO so much, because they supported allies who were generally far worse than they were?

PZI is justifiable when there's an indefinite threat from someone to your alliance, but that's very rare, and any alliance which deems TH to be a threat has bigger problems to deal with. It's excellent that EZI is now off the radar, but it would be even better if PZI was too.

[D34th]

PZI's supporters in karma?

[Lord Boris]

An idiot i may be but i know full well what Xiphosis does when he holds a grudge. To me the Illuminati war is very fresh in my mind and the fact im on GODs PZI is proof of that fact. They went to war in defence of NPO and even after going to war with NPO hold me to the PZI for past actions before the war.

I know how he can turn words to make things look in his favor.

I hear ya, Terry. Rumor is I'm still on their list too like Martens was, but they just haven't had the testicular fortitude to try it B)

[AirMe]

Also if he change his IC ruler and nation, surely he is no long those people therefore should not be held accountable for those past actions ?

See quote below. If he did good at leaving the past behind, no he should not, but as you see below he brags about his past personas.

The exact same thing? Really? I had thought my words were relatively original. Shucks.

If you're going to try and use my former sentences against me, at least get the number right. I've been on more lists than three and none did I get off by the mercy of my oppressors or put on by accurate information. Though, I'm sure you didn't want me to actually debate your point, rather sulk in the corner crying because your "plea to my senses" was oh so impeccably crafted.

Can we get back on topic now or is there anything else about me you'd like to talk about? Personally, I think my eyes are quite beautiful so if I had to suggest a topic I say we move to that one.

From someone who's been there time and time again, I say it still does have uses, depending on the situation. Terry Howard would be one of those in my opinion.

Edit: Added in reply to erikz. Sorry mate, didn't mean to ignore you just didn't see your post for some reason.

I was only aware of 2 prior incidents where you were forced to re-invent yourself but thank you for making my point because it looks like you are heading down the same path as you have before and again you are taking friends of mine with you, again, and that really is a tragedy.

If you get free passes, so does Terry Howard. He at least has only stuck with his one identity and deserves a shot. You, however, have to keep attempting to re-invent yourself and fail at it each time.

This is horribly off topic and I will not post anymore relating to this issue. With all your character changes you would have learned some humility by now.

[Kevin McDonald]

If you get free passes, so does Terry Howard.

None of his former personas received free passes. None of them. It has been stated many times in this thread that Terry Howard is free to reroll as someone other than Terry Howard. This is the same ultimatum given to Balder (eventually.) Balder opted to take freedom, Terry has not. The two of them have nothing to do with each other, and NEITHER have anything to do with this thread.

[Kryievla]

That respect is reciprocated. That goes without saying.

It can't have been too many in that crowd as for the most part everybody opposed Xiphosis' decision. Again, this thread is entirely neccessary so these actions aren't conflated and used to highlight hypocrisy in the future. Also, in the event that more such information is revealed in the coming days.

It was hardly a secret. It was a policy decision that GOD was so adamant, subborn and vehement on that it caused unneccessary problems for everybody involved. What's more is that we don't ride together anymore -- especially when that road leads to unjust or immoral decisions such as forced disbandments.

How can any ally trust you after those statements? I can chalk the initial post up to 'everyone screws up sometime', but it seems you didn't learn anything from this thread regarding how these actions affect the perception of your alliance. I am inferring that from the comment that there may be even more 'revealed' in the coming days. That you will sit on things that annoy you or that are private, but spew them out in expose' form if they dare to cancel on you? My god, man. No ally's secrets or dirty laundry are safe with you, a fact you have confirmed with that response to Spider. Never mind that any ally of yours must be wondering what you really think about them too. How can anyone trust your alliance, when you splash things that are between you and your former ally all over OWF, *especially* over a disagreement that ended up resolved to your satisfaction?

I don't like forced disbands, but I don't care for backstabbing either. While I'm not a fan of GOD by any means, and am rather ambivalent about RIA, I really think you owe them an apology.

[Terry Howard]

Terry Howard will confirm this conversation.

Back when the standing order was "shoot Terry Howard on sight" and anyone carrying the Illuminati AA was used as target practice for smaller nations, I spoke with him as one of the Tris of Ragnarok. He was told that he was free to create a new nation, form a new alliance, do whatever he wanted to do on Planet Bob and we did not even ask for an apology, reps, or anything of the sort (unlikely he could have given a genuine one in any event, given his past history...).

Our only condition was that he couldn't do it as 'Terry Howard'. I even suggested off hand that we'd even let slide if he created a new nation and had as its ruler 'Howard Terry'. We were just done with 'Terry Howard' and if he insisted on being 'Terry Howard' then he would be attacked at a time and place of our convenience.

----

OOC: I absolutely and positively make a distinction between a character and the player. If a player wants to play the game, no one but the Mods and Admin have a right to tell them whether they can play or not. On the other hand, if a character has annoyed another character/a whole alliance to the point that they have created a mortal enemy, then you as the player that controls that character and wants it to survive had best create the conditions that allow it to survive--either as a player putting your nation into Peace Mode or as the character by negotiating your way out or getting bigger, nastier friends than your enemies. If you as the player cannot/do not want to get into Peace Mode or you as a character cannot negotiate your way out or find bigger friends, it's probably time to re-roll and create a new character.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with morality and everything to do with how the game has been played for the most part, since it was created. If there were excesses pre-Karma War, it was in the area of alliances taking IP addresses, obtained ostensibly for purposes of OOC alliance forum security, and using them to create "EZI" lists--effectively a hit list based on IP address. That amounts to an attempt at a player enforced ban from the game and I spoke out repeatedly before the Karma War (and before almost all of Planet Bob) against the practice. Ditto someone admitting privately that they as a player had previous character and revealing the name of said character and then that being used against their new character (which often led to a consultation of IP addresses for confirmation). If you as a player want to hold a grudge against another player I can't stop you. But a true re-roll (new nation name, new ruler) and the creation of a new character should be just that--a fresh start. Go forth and sin no more. If you insist on piling up new sins...well at some point re-rolling has to get old.

EDIT: clarity

Yes i can confirm that this was along the line of events back then.

Also Its not for me to say Is i deserve to be on GODs PZI and im there as plain as simple they have the means to keep me there.

I side did alot of thing in my time on CN and everyone bangs on i have had 2 or 3 chances when thats tosh i have had the chance to surrender thats it we could not meet terms i was wiped out. The only alliance that I had any respect for was RoK and Fark from back then.

Plain and simple i got what was coming as many before more and just as many after me.

We are now over a year and half on and people just cant let go of the past. Why should i change my name its who i am and i have my past to look back on in shame thats down to me.

Nemesis would not force AB to Disband good for them thats up to them. As it is for GOD and RIA to cxd the pacts the held with Nemesis.

Ill not change my name as over the years its kind of grown on me.

[Matthew Conrad]

So by this, are you saying Maroon support PZI, IF I am not mistake wasn't this one of the reason Karma happened ?

OR was KARMA just another smoke screen and the real reason was to take down NPO ?

I see you are as good as ever at making wild assumptions. This time about an entire color sphere.

[Rickyman1984]

How can anyone trust your alliance, when you splash things that are between you and your former ally all over OWF, *especially* over a disagreement that ended up resolved to your satisfaction?

Hi, you apparently missed some posts by Nemesis leadership.

Blacky is not in Nemesis Gov.

Blacky has been inactive for quite some time.

Nemesis Gov did not approve and does not enjoy this thread.

We hold no ill will towards either RIA or GOD, the cancellation is exactly what should have happened (imo). There was a significant disagreement over an important issue. The relationship was untenable, the relationship was ended. All parties are better off as a result.

Case closed, Blacky has free speech just like everyone else. So please argue with him and not Nemesis as a whole, since most of us have long since moved past this (as have RIA and GOD I'm sure).

[Blacky]

How can any ally trust you after those statements? I can chalk the initial post up to 'everyone screws up sometime', but it seems you didn't learn anything from this thread regarding how these actions affect the perception of your alliance. I am inferring that from the comment that there may be even more 'revealed' in the coming days.

How dare I betray GOD's trust! The public don't need to know the true reasons for why our treaty was cancelled. Infact we owe it to them to keep it a secret. Are you serious? Also that second part went right over your head didn't it?

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post it's that ridiculous.

Edit: Also considering that according to you you're not too fond of GOD or their actions I don't see the basis for your moral outrage. This was hardly a private matter it was an issue of policy in a global war.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Blacky

[Kryievla]

How dare I betray GOD's trust! The public don't need to know the true reasons for why our treaty was cancelled. Infact we owe it to them to keep it a secret. Are you serious? Also that second part went right over your head didn't it?

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post it's that ridiculous.

You kept it secret for two months, did you not?

[King Srqt]

Hi, you apparently missed some posts by Nemesis leadership.

Blacky is not in Nemesis Gov.

Blacky has been inactive for quite some time.

Nemesis Gov did not approve and does not enjoy this thread.

We hold no ill will towards either RIA or GOD, the cancellation is exactly what should have happened (imo). There was a significant disagreement over an important issue. The relationship was untenable, the relationship was ended. All parties are better off as a result.

Case closed, Blacky has free speech just like everyone else. So please argue with him and not Nemesis as a whole, since most of us have long since moved past this (as have RIA and GOD I'm sure).

It is a sad truth that when you allow your membership the right to spout stupid things like this that it will reflect poorly on your alliance as a whole. He represents Nemesis as a member of Nemesis and his actions and words reflect on Nemesis.

Blacky is making you look bad, if you do not want to do anything about it that is your prerogative but do not be surprised when people come and attribute his words to your alliance.

[Blacky]

You kept it secret for two months, did you not?

If telling all our allies several times over, posting it in various allies and friends embassies (including RIA's), making a video about it on youtube and alluding to it in the actual cancellation thread is considered keeping it a secret. Then yes, totally. Please inform yourself.

[Delta1212]

Edit: Also considering that according to you you're not too fond of GOD or their actions I don't see the basis for your moral outrage. This was hardly a private matter it was an issue of policy in a global war.

The fact that people who don't like GOD in the first place think this thread was a bad move on your part should really tell you something.

[Balder]

See quote below. If he did good at leaving the past behind, no he should not, but as you see below he brags about his past personas.

I was only aware of 2 prior incidents where you were forced to re-invent yourself but thank you for making my point because it looks like you are heading down the same path as you have before and again you are taking friends of mine with you, again, and that really is a tragedy.

If you get free passes, so does Terry Howard. He at least has only stuck with his one identity and deserves a shot. You, however, have to keep attempting to re-invent yourself and fail at it each time.

This is horribly off topic and I will not post anymore relating to this issue. With all your character changes you would have learned some humility by now.

Sigh... you are relentless in your ignorance aren't you. I'd offer you a chance to continue this conversation via PM in an effort to get back on topic but I know you're not actually interested in either backing up your talk, or learning why it's wrong. You seem to prefer half-assed attempts at character assassination. A pity.

Back on topic.

Blacky is making you look bad, if you do not want to do anything about it that is your prerogative but do not be surprised when people come and attribute his words to your alliance.

Ditto.

[King Srqt]

I'm not even going to address the rest of your post it's that ridiculous.

Just think, If only everyone used that standard to decide whether to post, this thread would have 0 replies.

[Blacky]

Blacky is making you look bad, if you do not want to do anything about it that is your prerogative but do not be surprised when people come and attribute his words to your alliance.

Yeah that tactic isn't going to work. I thought you'd figure as much when it was tried the first few times. Nemesis has almost unlimited freedom of speech and expression. So yeah these sorts of threats are baseless B)

[Terry Howard]

Yeah that tactic isn't going to work. I thought you'd figure as much when it was tried the first few times. Nemesis has almost unlimited freedom of speech and expression. So yeah these sorts of threats are baseless B)

Mate you not going to win this war of words id just leave it.

OOC i just dropped one and need to leave the room

[King Srqt]

Yeah that tactic isn't going to work. I thought you'd figure as much when it was tried the first few times. Nemesis has almost unlimited freedom of speech and expression. So yeah these sorts of threats are baseless B)

It is not a threat it is a fact. The community as a whole is going to have a lesser opinion of Nemesis due to your actions. I am all for freedom of speech but you are doing nothing but hurting your own alliance in order to fulfil a personal vendetta. I feel bad for nemesis for having to deal with such a selfish member as yourself.