Warning

[Augustus Autumn]

As far as nothing happening, I don't know what world you live in but there has been plenty of entertainment going around these parts without being started by NPO. So for right now I do like this multi-polar world of Karma folklore.

Just because the political landscape is no longer Pacifica-centric doesn't mean that it's become multi-polar. From the look of things along with what's been said from time to time in other venues it does appear that the Cyberverse is heading back toward the usual polarization into two larger camps with smaller ones circling one or the other (which is to be expected). It's simply taking a bit longer to happen than normal because the previous constant of The Continuum / One-Vision is no longer around and a lot of the old player-alliances aren't able/inclined to get involved.

[HeinousOne]

Just because the political landscape is no longer Pacifica-centric doesn't mean that it's become multi-polar. From the look of things along with what's been said from time to time in other venues it does appear that the Cyberverse is heading back toward the usual polarization into two larger camps with smaller ones circling one or the other (which is to be expected). It's simply taking a bit longer to happen than normal because the previous constant of The Continuum / One-Vision is no longer around and a lot of the old player-alliances aren't able/inclined to get involved.

Well, if your statement is that the world is becoming a Citadel/SF world I would have to contest that.

I know Frostbite does not "circle" around one or the other and CnG is pretty much the opposite of Frostbite in that aspect because they have strong ties to both and that makes CnG a rather strong pole in their own right. You then have the purple pole that you for now can basically toss NPO into and its supporters.

There is enough power outside of those you would label the bipolar powers to prove that this is not a bipolar world nor will it be for quite some time. The fact that some of the Citadel powers did not go forward with the founding of the periphery bloc that would contain some of them along with MHA, IRON and FOK goes to show they do not wish to form the world into two poles as the founding of such would force the other powers to begin to feel themselves in opposition to such.

You see, there is a Balance of Power currently that keeps everyone in check because there are multiple poles and no one is immune to what could happen should one of those poles become too powerful according to everyone else. tC/1V did not fear that, even when they should have. Everyone has seen the cost that comes along with making such a mistake.

[Hyperion321]

Just because the political landscape is no longer Pacifica-centric doesn't mean that it's become multi-polar. From the look of things along with what's been said from time to time in other venues it does appear that the Cyberverse is heading back toward the usual polarization into two larger camps with smaller ones circling one or the other (which is to be expected). It's simply taking a bit longer to happen than normal because the previous constant of The Continuum / One-Vision is no longer around and a lot of the old player-alliances aren't able/inclined to get involved.

I somewhat agree with this. There certainly are several very large power centers. But most if not all seem to be centered around one of two ideologies:

1: "Screw with people and do what we want"

2: "Dislike the people who keep screwing with the world"

It's only a matter of time before camp 1 pushes camp 2 a little too far, or vice versa, and the world explodes again. I look forward to that day.

[Vladimir]

Is Karma dead? I certainly hope so. Does that mean that a similiar coalition will never spring up should conditions be favorable for such? Hardly. Does that mean that the only condition for such be the rise of NPO? That would be incorrect as well.

As far as nothing happening, I don't know what world you live in but there has been plenty of entertainment going around these parts without being started by NPO. So for right now I do like this multi-polar world of Karma folklore.

Which is why I said "If the point is simply that powers will fight powers, then no point is being made at all, and the mention of Karma or the NPO is... well, pointless." 'People will fight people' is hardly ground-breaking theory, and nothing like the idealistic nonsense that the 'Karma will return!' lot are putting out.

The excitement? Well, you've had some NSO stuff, some Internet Superheroes stuff... erm... some treaties being signed and cancelled... some election announcements... Now, I'm sure there has been ample manoeuvring going on behind the scenes, but there always is -- there was during the Initiative and there was throughout the Continuum (which began in much the same situation after the UjW). It might eventually lead to a qualitative break in the new global structure as one group makes a bold move forward, or it might not; when such a time draws near we will likely know about it well in advance due to the verbal conflict. Regardless, none of this means anything to those currently wandering about the OWF looking for a topic of discussion. The result? "How 'bout that NPO?"

[HeinousOne]

Which is why I said "If the point is simply that powers will fight powers, then no point is being made at all, and the mention of Karma or the NPO is... well, pointless." 'People will fight people' is hardly ground-breaking theory, and nothing like the idealistic nonsense that the 'Karma will return!' lot are putting out.

The excitement? Well, you've had some NSO stuff, some Internet Superheroes stuff... erm... some treaties being signed and cancelled... some election announcements... Now, I'm sure there has been ample manoeuvring going on behind the scenes, but there always is -- there was during the Initiative and there was throughout the Continuum (which began in much the same situation after the UjW). It might eventually lead to a qualitative break in the new global structure as one group makes a bold move forward, or it might not; when such a time draws near we will likely know about it well in advance due to the verbal conflict. Regardless, none of this means anything to those currently wandering about the OWF looking for a topic of discussion. The result? "How 'bout that NPO?"

I guess the difference I can enjoy the conflicts you speak of because they do not threaten the possible annihilation of an alliance. The are small scale fights that do not leave the participants in a state of destruction of which the rebuilding period is a long one. Do we disagree in the positive difference?

Perhaps you just miss being able to log in on any given day and have the exacts about everything going on anywhere brought to you within minutes? I guess we just need to have some understanding as you get used to this new world as well.

[Vladimir]

Oh my. I'm not sure why you're getting defensive and attacking me here; I am merely explaining to you the situation that gives rise to the focus on the NPO and the resulting fear (because there isn't enough open conflict of opinion between the supposed poles to generate fear of anyone else). This is the world, whether or not you enjoy it is up to you -- it's not my concern.

That I may not know (or, to be perfectly frank, care about) the specifics of the tit-for-tat that's going on behind the scenes has no relevance at all to my point -- in fact it reinforces it. That I may or may not enjoy the current goings on on the OWF is also entirely irrelevant, because I'm not speaking of my own opinion, but rather in generalities about the wider population, whose views can be found expressed in this thread among others.

That said, I seem to remember one of the main complaints of Continuum leadership (which was much the same, with slow manoeuvring behind the scenes) being that all that happened was the odd skirmish, treaties being signed and cancelled, and elections being announced. Nobody was quite so appreciative of the little things back then. I guess context is important.

[anenu]

Well, if your statement is that the world is becoming a Citadel/SF world I would have to contest that.

I know Frostbite does not "circle" around one or the other and CnG is pretty much the opposite of Frostbite in that aspect because they have strong ties to both and that makes CnG a rather strong pole in their own right. You then have the purple pole that you for now can basically toss NPO into and its supporters.

There is enough power outside of those you would label the bipolar powers to prove that this is not a bipolar world nor will it be for quite some time. The fact that some of the Citadel powers did not go forward with the founding of the periphery bloc that would contain some of them along with MHA, IRON and FOK goes to show they do not wish to form the world into two poles as the founding of such would force the other powers to begin to feel themselves in opposition to such.

You see, there is a Balance of Power currently that keeps everyone in check because there are multiple poles and no one is immune to what could happen should one of those poles become too powerful according to everyone else. tC/1V did not fear that, even when they should have. Everyone has seen the cost that comes along with making such a mistake.

That pretty much sums up my feelings.

Their are multiple powerful individual forces in the world and as their are more than 2 nobody wants to make the move that gives 1 group so much power that the others will unite against them.

[Heft]

I'm pretty sure what people mean to say is that some adequately sizable group of alliances will band together to bring down anybody who attempts to infringe on the freedom and safety which we now enjoy.

Freedom and safety? Maybe for those with the right friends. Of course, that's how it was before, just now the "right friends" have changed. There were petty people with bad attitudes in power before Karma, and there are petty people with bad attitudes in power now. Not all of them, certainly, but enough to make the idea that our current world is all roses pretty laughable.

[Trinite]

OP is silly. Discussion is sillier.

[Corinan]

Not all of them, certainly, but enough to make the idea that our current world is all roses pretty laughable.

Well it is if you serve the right masters, my fellow Sith Lord. The faces change but little else.

[Lord of Destruction]

NPO isnt that big of a threat anymore. Sure they are back to sanction but who cares. There are many alliances willing to go to war with them again so if they do something stupid someone will declare on them again.

It's talk like this that disgusts me. I move to "the other side", and there are still arrogant morons that want to lord over people. Are you daft? All these claims of "freedom" and "safety" and "change" are absolutely ridiculous if you say "Well, NPO is an exception and if they ever step out of line we'll kill them again." That's not change. That's not freedom. And that's is certainly not safety. That is a bunch of vindictive idiots who're overstepping a boundary just because they won a big war for the first time, and aren't able to stop themselves from seeing the fact that they're taking it way too far. Sure, good, you won. Congratulations. Move on. Stop having a grudge that makes you ignorant. Sure, you can still dislike them, but don't go so far as saying "You're lucky we let you live."

[Cortath]

It's talk like this that disgusts me. I move to "the other side", and there are still arrogant morons that want to lord over people. Are you daft? All these claims of "freedom" and "safety" and "change" are absolutely ridiculous if you say "Well, NPO is an exception and if they ever step out of line we'll kill them again." That's not change. That's not freedom. And that's is certainly not safety. That is a bunch of vindictive idiots who're overstepping a boundary just because they won a big war for the first time, and aren't able to stop themselves from seeing the fact that they're taking it way too far. Sure, good, you won. Congratulations. Move on. Stop having a grudge that makes you ignorant. Sure, you can still dislike them, but don't go so far as saying "You're lucky we let you live."

If ignorance is bliss, why shouldn't people hold grudges that make them ignorant, LoD? I thought this new era of peace and prosperity ushered into by the downfall of the tyrannical, speech-crushing, baby-eating hegemonic empire was to bring bliss and happiness to every citizen on Planet Bob forever and ever?

[Delta1212]

Did I hit a sore spot? Way too much being read into what I said. I know we're out on the periphery. I know we're not about to take over the world. I know we aren't a threat to any of the fear-mongering or FREEDOMFREEDOMFREEDOM posters. Indeed, if you had been reading my posts at any point over the past three months or so (or if you had seen me discussing it in #nsa) you would have realised that I have consistently been making the point that the fear and focus on us is asinine.

My point is that you cannot simultaneously claim that Karma doesn't exist and that Karma will reappear to destroy the evil NPO. Either it exists as a de facto bloc ready for action or it doesn't. If the point is simply that powers will fight powers, then no point is being made at all, and the mention of Karma or the NPO is... well, pointless. Thus I made a call for people to make a choice: is Karma standing strong as the anti-Pacifican vanguard, or has it long since dissolved into infighting as the great war legend said it would.

The responses of Delta and HeinousOne are not therefore in disagreement with myself, but rather they are a round condemnation of the stance of Starcraftmazter and many others. Given this your post has little relation to mine, HeinousOne, except to stand in agreement about the Order's peripheral position.

We could go deeper into why there is such focus on us and the realities of 'It's all happening behind the scenes!' bloc politics, but I fear such is treading dangerously off topic. I will simply say that when things are actually happening, and when there is genuine conflict going on and not just tit-for-tat manoeuvring, it quickly finds its way to the OWF and we would not be getting such attention. As it is we stand closer to the great post-GPW stagnation and the consequent popular complaints about how little happens without the NPO around, than we do to the mythical multi-polar world of Karma folklore.

First, whether the post I was addressing was serious or being facetious in order to illustrate a point was not perfectly clear. As such, regardless of which is actually the case, it behooves me to respond seriously in such instances as there will doubtless be others who cannot tell the difference and who will take the statement at face value. If I refute an ironic point, then it supports your statement and we're in agreement. If I refute a point meant in all sincerity, then we disagree but I further the debate. If I fail to do either then I failed to support the position I favor and have failed in the pursuit of proper discourse.

Now, regarding the myth of multipolarity, what state, if not multipolarity, do you feel we are in, and how would you describe a world which is multipolar in actuality?

[Palpatine001]

[Walks in]

[Reads]

[Laughs]

[Has a beer with NPO at the GATO Embassy]

[Goes back home]

Ok don't know what to make of this apart from:

Yes NPO are climbing the ranking

NPO wanting revenge? Don't know more to the point don't care from my perspective

Someone got bored in the interwar years by starting this thread - highly likely

Result of all this, some mud flinging, so battered egos and maybe the odd rolling

All in all life goes on.

Advertisement

Karma War, $20 (and sleepless nights)

Terms from the war $40 and some intelligence (or lack thereof)

The boredom from the interwar years - PRICELESS

There are somethings not worth "knuckle draggin"

For everything else there is Mastercard

Serving nitwits since common sense became as rare hens teeth

[Augustus Autumn]

Well, if your statement is that the world is becoming a Citadel/SF world I would have to contest that.

My statement was nothing of the sort - I was simply alluding to the predictable progression of Cyberverse politics. Your statement, on the other hand, I find rather intriguing.

[HeinousOne]

My statement was nothing of the sort - I was simply alluding to the predictable progression of Cyberverse politics. Your statement, on the other hand, I find rather intriguing.

If it is the fact that I used Citadel and SF as my examples, it is that they are the most widely looked upon as being at the top and at opposing ends of the spectrum.

[Starcraftmazter]

Rewriting history are we? You are not a freedom fighter. You entered the war days after it started, fought one war for an ally and band wagoned another. Thats hardly Vox material

I do believe you are confusing me with someone else. Very badly.

Freedom and safety? Maybe for those with the right friends. Of course, that's how it was before, just now the "right friends" have changed. There were petty people with bad attitudes in power before Karma, and there are petty people with bad attitudes in power now. Not all of them, certainly, but enough to make the idea that our current world is all roses pretty laughable.

Rulers can say whatever they wish, they can ally with whomever they choose - this is something which has not been true for the longest time, until recently.

[Qaianna]

I do believe you are confusing me with someone else. Very badly.

Rulers can say whatever they wish, they can ally with whomever they choose - this is something which has not been true for the longest time, until recently.

..um..they can? There are some people who were attacked recently over some (admittedly poorly thought out) words.

Speech will always have consequences. There's no way around that. Especially if that speech is 'do X or we'll attack' or 'do X and we'll attack'. Granted, the consequences can range from rallying the crowd to drawing derisive laughter. Think in this case the free speech was exercised, and the result is..derisive laughter with a side order of contemplation on the current state of the world without the New Pacific Order holding a central role.

Tho seriously, it's a little difficult for me to truly believe the whole 'we're in a new era of freedom' talk. Mainly because I'm bitter and cynical by nature, tho.

[Starcraftmazter]

Tho seriously, it's a little difficult for me to truly believe the whole 'we're in a new era of freedom' talk. Mainly because I'm bitter and cynical by nature, tho.

Maybe that's because you were in the bullying camp and not in the oppressed camp before all this, hence you have no ability to even comprehend what we talk about.

[Heft]

Maybe that's because you were in the bullying camp and not in the oppressed camp before all this, hence you have no ability to even comprehend what we talk about.

Oh, you glorious martyr.

[Cortath]

Tho seriously, it's a little difficult for me to truly believe the whole 'we're in a new era of freedom' talk. Mainly because I'm bitter and cynical by nature, tho.

It's not bitterness and cynicism.

You're just not as dumb as a brick. Or as insincere.

[Qaianna]

Maybe that's because you were in the bullying camp and not in the oppressed camp before all this, hence you have no ability to even comprehend what we talk about.

Hm. 'Were in the bullying camp and not in the oppressed camp BEFORE ALL THIS' seems to imply that now I've changed camps.

Which..means that oppression is going on

Tho it's nice to hear that I actually have no ability to comprehend things. Ah, what a wonderous time we're in now when people can be belittled merely because of their alliance affiliation!

[Lord of Destruction]

Tho it's nice to hear that I actually have no ability to comprehend things. Ah, what a wonderous time we're in now when people can be belittled merely because of their alliance affiliation!

That's been happening since the dawn of Bob, my good fellow.

[Starcraftmazter]

Hm. 'Were in the bullying camp and not in the oppressed camp BEFORE ALL THIS' seems to imply that now I've changed camps.

There are no such camps these days.

Ah, what a wonderous time we're in now when people can be belittled merely because of their alliance affiliation!

I'm making quite a legitimate point. Sorry if it offends you that it has to do with your alliance, however that does not affect the legitimacy of my point.

[Eretz Yisrael]

Well you've got the right idea I guess, even if it was delivered rather poorly.