Warning

[Cortath]

Almost makes me wonder if TORN didn't plan the whole war to lure us into a trap... though I'm probably giving them too much credit.

You are. Bigwoody is just stupid and easily played.

[HeinousOne]

Almost makes me wonder if TORN didn't plan the whole war to lure us into a trap... though I'm probably giving them too much credit.

If such was the case, TORN wouldn't have fallen apart like it did.

[Ivan Moldavi]

You know not the meaning of scapegoating.

I do though.

[Lizardo]

^ It is truth.

[Lodev]

There are those in this world who feel safer today than they were yesterday. There are those who feel that the days ahead are brighter than the days behind, that they made a difference in the karma war, that the forces of evil have been dealt irreparable damage and that they will never again rule with an iron fist as they once had. This is a false sense of security.

Do to the incompetence and impotence of the forces of karma to finish the job against the NPO and the Hegemony, and by allowing them to live, allowing the ideology which threatens the security of all by placing unlimited power in the hands of the elitist few, and our future is in jeopardy. The leaders of the forces of karma, in there greed, sought to gain technology, money, land and infrastructure. Thinking they can stay ahead and keep the hegemony in check with such gifts, have forsaken those they were to protect for there own benefit.

The evil forces of the hegemony are once again on the rise. The NPO has gone from number 12 to number ten in a few short weeks, they have issued a new maldavi doctrine which is hidden with under lying messages and open to interpitation, they seek to unite the red sphere economically, which is the first step to conquest. They have always been and always will be a threat. But now our future is even more grim. They will seek there revenge on those who have harmed her.

But let me be clear, the NPO herself is not the threat; the ideal of Francoism in which she enshrines is the true threat, an ideal that is changed from one emperor to the next to suit his needs, an ideal that gives him unlimited power by playing off the laws of nature and other ignorance. The ideal creates a system where conquest is not an option but rather a way of life.

One of the gravest mistakes ever made on planet bob is allowing the NPO, allowing Francoism to survive. The NPO will return to exact its revenge, and may Admin have mercy on us all. Now because of this fault military conquest is no longer an option, now other means must be sought and exploited to bring her down to let freedom reign. The NPO and her minions will return and our mistake will cost us dearly.

You're already saying it yourself, that karma isn't perfect and incompetent.

How long before this "imperfect and incompetent" top-faction is also destroyed with some wars, called "evil" and replaced by the next whatever they come up with?

Everyone is still humans. Nobody is going to stay in the top and keep everyone happy forever.

So enjoy it while it lasts, until you're going to be the one called evil. But maybe you're just going to switch to the next new thing by then. Now that would be weak.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Lodev

[Robert Specto]

Eh so what, yeah i dont like NPO very much at all, least what they have done, maybe not some of the ppl actually in the alliance, but who cares if they are growing again. It was going to happen anyways, if you look at any other alliance that was in a war and dropped several sanction spots, they have come back, to once again be sanctioned. I never had a problem with the Moldavi Doctrine or however you spell it, just dont go on red or raid it. Who cares about one team, theres tons of others. I got my fun in the Karma War, finally NPO got owned, im happy. Dont care if they come back, cause really, they arnt that much of a threat, someone else will take there place in the "Im the boss around here" category, just wait.

[Penkala]

Not knowing the facts isn't the same as them not being in your favour.

The fact is you wanted this war, you pushed for the war, and you started the war. If only you were more truthful with your own members and the public. Simply put, you took your chances when you saw more and more people jump to Karma's beliefs that curbstomps, viceroys and the like needed to be stopped. You struck at what you thought was the best opportunity you had to win and take on as little of Karma as possible. And it didn't work out, more people joined Karma than you thought, and you lost. I've seen a lot of honesty from Karma members regarding what was going on in their minds in the leadup to the war (one great example is the timeline delta posted), and you still have the galls to come on here and somehow turn what we both know happened into OV 'spying on you', and claim that the 'facts' are on your side. Even excluding the facts that you won't reveal to this day (yes, we know the other reason the CB is a complete joke and 'spying' is laughable at best.) the facts show that you launched first instead of reaching a peaceful resolution.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Penkala

[Haflinger]

The fact is you wanted this war, you pushed for the war, and you started the war.

How do you know this?

[TehChron]

Even excluding the facts that you won't reveal to this day (yes, we know the other reason the CB is a complete joke and 'spying' is laughable at best.) the facts show that you launched first instead of reaching a peaceful resolution.

Out of curiosity, why do you consider spying a laughable CB?

Because of the hypocrisy involved, or do you honestly believe spying is not an act of war?

[Chief Savage Man]

Personally, I think spying should be a part of the game. When spies get caught, that should increase the tensions between the two. My problems with spying as a CB starts when certain alliances *cough*NPO*cough* try to claim they don't spy and don their white armor. Spying should carry a penalty of ZI for the spy. Spying for information should be frowned upon, the spies ZI'd but the alliances just have a little diplomatic incident. It should only be used for a CB if the spy is actively trying to cause damage to the target alliance (i.e. inciting unrest, undermining the government, embezzling aid, etc.).

[WorldConqueror]

Personally, I think spying should be a part of the game. When spies get caught, that should increase the tensions between the two. My problems with spying as a CB starts when certain alliances *cough*NPO*cough* try to claim they don't spy and don their white armor. Spying should carry a penalty of ZI for the spy. Spying for information should be frowned upon, the spies ZI'd but the alliances just have a little diplomatic incident. It should only be used for a CB if the spy is actively trying to cause damage to the target alliance (i.e. inciting unrest, undermining the government, embezzling aid, etc.).

I won't get into the whole 'Does NPO spy' thing, but I will comment on the rest. I don't really see the argument you are making. If the spy is an operative of an alliance then why shouldn't the alliance pay? Any info the spy gets isn't going to benefit them personally, it's only going to benefit their alliance vis-à-vis whoever they are spying on. So if the operation was organised and run by an alliance, and only benefits that alliance, isn't it a bit weird to want to only punish the person actually doing the spying?

[Chief Savage Man]

I won't get into the whole 'Does NPO spy' thing, but I will comment on the rest. I don't really see the argument you are making. If the spy is an operative of an alliance then why shouldn't the alliance pay? Any info the spy gets isn't going to benefit them personally, it's only going to benefit their alliance vis-à-vis whoever they are spying on. So if the operation was organised and run by an alliance, and only benefits that alliance, isn't it a bit weird to want to only punish the person actually doing the spying?

Your argument makes sense but if I always wanted to make sense I wouldn't be here right now. Let's face it. Spying and intrigue makes CN fun. The time I miss most is the "Cold War" period between GW1 and GW2. There was open hostility between two poles of the CN universe. It was GREAT. Now, everybody pretends to be friends until it all explodes in a bloody stupid spasm of violence. The alliance is, technically, responsible for it. But I'm not here to play Cyber Attorneys. I'm here for Cyber Nations. Nations do morally ambiguous things. I want the community to expect that kind of thing. It's about fun in the end. A fun that was lost a long time ago.

[WorldConqueror]

Your argument makes sense but if I always wanted to make sense I wouldn't be here right now. Let's face it. Spying and intrigue makes CN fun. The time I miss most is the "Cold War" period between GW1 and GW2. There was open hostility between two poles of the CN universe. It was GREAT. Now, everybody pretends to be friends until it all explodes in a bloody stupid spasm of violence. The alliance is, technically, responsible for it. But I'm not here to play Cyber Attorneys. I'm here for Cyber Nations. Nations do morally ambiguous things. I want the community to expect that kind of thing. It's about fun in the end. A fun that was lost a long time ago.

Ah right, I see what you're saying. And I only joined during GWII, but the time between then and GWIII was the most fun I've had in my time here. And the constant tension was key to that. But I don't really know if more spying would bring that atmosphere back. It would introduce more paranoia and mistrust, but that would probably result in information being massively restricted and everyone putting on an even more friendly public face, like what happened when Vox's spy campaign was at its height. So I dunno, I see your point, but I don't know if more spying would help to fix anything.

[Penkala]

Out of curiosity, why do you consider spying a laughable CB?

Because of the hypocrisy involved, or do you honestly believe spying is not an act of war?

Because at worst it was accepting information from someone who spied.

[TehChron]

Because at worst it was accepting information from someone who spied.

Thats not an answer at all, and in fact, that's not even really a complete thought.

Personally, I think spying should be a part of the game. When spies get caught, that should increase the tensions between the two. My problems with spying as a CB starts when certain alliances *cough*NPO*cough* try to claim they don't spy and don their white armor. Spying should carry a penalty of ZI for the spy. Spying for information should be frowned upon, the spies ZI'd but the alliances just have a little diplomatic incident. It should only be used for a CB if the spy is actively trying to cause damage to the target alliance (i.e. inciting unrest, undermining the government, embezzling aid, etc.).

I like your answer, though, and I agree with it. I find it particularly fascinating since during my time in upper NPO government, I was actively lied to by the Imperial Staff about many things we did, and despite the fact I showed keen insight into things, I was apparently not considered worthy of their trust.

Spying on the NPO is useless unless you've got access to IO-level information, or are waiting for target lists to be put up. It's why when most NPO members said we didnt spy, they actively believed it, myself included...Finding out the NPO spied when I came back was something that infuriated me greatly, because it showed just how much I was lied to by folks I trusted to do the right thing by me during my time there.

If we're gonna spy, admit it. If we don't, then don't do it, at least be consistent and such. But don't be afraid to suffer the consequences of what spying leads to...And frankly, that's a case-by-case basis thing. Are you just screen-shotting stuff out of the diplo forum to compile lists on the folks an alliance is attempting to establish diplomatic relations with? Do you actively post misinformation? Do you try to obtain a leadership position in the alliance in order to undermine it for your masters?

As a spy, different acts do different degrees of harm, and should it come back to your alliance, then frankly, people shouldn't be !@#$%*ing about it when a proportional consequence is levied against your home for what they assigned you to do. It's reciprocity, or something like that. Inevitable consequences of one's actions.

Anyone who thinks "omg spying isnt an act of subversaion/warz" is frankly being stupid,

[Bob Janova]

Out of curiosity, why do you consider spying a laughable CB?

I'm pretty sure that what Penkala meant is that it is laughable to claim that OV was spying, not that spying is a laughable CB. That's certainly the position of many people in Karma – that you had a cast iron CB, but against Blackstone and not OV. (NPO never really tried to go after Blackstone, which is why the theory that they planted them in order to get a CB gained credence.)

(edit: not responding to an NPO poster)

Edited September 20, 2009 by Bob Janova

[Branimir]

Thank you kamino for this.

I did miss dearly this rantings,....it feels good man

Nothing beats this type of threads for me, just pure gold right here.

[TehChron]

I'm pretty sure that what Penkala meant is that it is laughable to claim that OV was spying, not that spying is a laughable CB. That's certainly the position of many people in Karma – that you had a cast iron CB, but against Blackstone and not OV. (NPO never really tried to go after Blackstone, which is why the theory that they planted them in order to get a CB gained credence.)

(edit: not responding to an NPO poster)

His wordings been horribly vague, I hope thats due to a failure of grammar, rather than an accurate representation of his thoughts on the subject.

[HeinousOne]

Spying happens, that is not going to change. The thing is though if you participate in such you must know the possible consequences of such. Spying without the risk of consequences to such is hardly fun and the act of espionage Must have consequences if you get caught. Those consequences are not a statement that spying should not happen but simply a statement about the value of spying and the damage it can do to those on the receiving end as well as the gain to those on the spying end. If there was no consequence to getting caught everyone would spy on everyone and they would be very blatent and nasty about it. So if you are going to spy on an alliance you better get something good out of it because if you get caught, expect consequences.

[Qaianna]

Personally, I think spying should be a part of the game. When spies get caught, that should increase the tensions between the two. My problems with spying as a CB starts when certain alliances *cough*NPO*cough* try to claim they don't spy and don their white armor. Spying should carry a penalty of ZI for the spy. Spying for information should be frowned upon, the spies ZI'd but the alliances just have a little diplomatic incident. It should only be used for a CB if the spy is actively trying to cause damage to the target alliance (i.e. inciting unrest, undermining the government, embezzling aid, etc.).

It actually is part of the great game of politics we in the world all play (see 'Populi, Vox'). And tensions do tend to rise. Granted, for many the tensions rise to severe levels, and need a lot of diplomacy (or a lot of cruise missiles) to defuse.

The classic problem is trying to decide 'Was alliance X behind what happenned?', and what said alliance should have happen to it--all depending on how said alliance ends up handling the situation.

Edit: 'game' means all the wonderful diplomacy that we do, and not some diversion on a website where pointing and clicking can release missiles. Those only exist at nonbobnations.ii.gga (note: website should be completely fake because I'm using 'ii.gga' as my nation's temporary web domain).

Edited September 21, 2009 by Qaianna