I have a dream.

[Drostan]

I am on the periphery now, Einstein. The Liquor Cabinet doesn't have a dog in this fight. We're neutral in this war. We recognize both the good and the bad on both sides. It could be said that we do sympathize more toward the Karma side, given the origins of most of our membership and our generally very poor to nonexistent relations with the Pacifican side, but we're above this fight. That doesn't mean we won't, along with our steadfast allies, continue the clarion call for a just peace free from the vindictive terms sure to beget future vindictive terms. The cycle needs to be broken for the good of the community.

What on Earth do you think we're doing here now? I can tell you we're not just practicing our impeccable grammar and delightful prosaic machinations while using you as a verbal heavy bag.

You will have to teach me to make that seamless transition from offical party windbag to peripheral coxswain. It's a good trick.

The cycle needs to be broken seems to be your latest catch-phrase. The trouble is that your entire position still hinges on our will to destroy Pacifica which is false. We can argue that indefinitely and end where we started. Hopefully, a reasonable peace will speak for us to allay your noble concerns.

I think you are here because your ego has led you here. And I hope that 'we' does not contain Chron because it would considerably weaken your estimation of your "delightful prosaic machinations".

I am glad that at the very least, you consider me a heavy bag.

[Rebel Virginia]

I don't understand how any clown out there can honestly believe they are righteous in their attacks on NPO when they were the ones who supported their oppression that made their hegemony possible. Anyone who tells a member of Polaris, Sponge, or Vox Populi that they have not fought this fight and believes that we are incapable of understanding what harsh terms are should give some thought to what we have gone through in the past year.

Of course we will be more sympathetic to the Karma cause. NPO has been our number one enemy for so long I can hardly remember them being a friend eons ago. We suffered through their crap, and we want an end to such harsh surrender terms. What is difficult to understand about that?

Do keep in mind that those most adamant about giving the NPO harsh terms, and those saying that Sponge, etc. did not fight, are in fact those who were once key players in the Hegemony. Sparta, MHA, etc., have all demonstrated that although they looked great compared to NPO (which isn't saying much), on their own they lose a lot of face and are capable of being quite undesirable. This whole thing about moral crusading, pushing the NPO and serving justice, its all a ruse. A mask, because they hope that by taking up this "cause" people might stay blind a little longer, and forget what they did in the past. Unfortunately for them, we don't.

These people aren't interested in bring justice, or balance, or anything. Because they can't, or else they would have to hold themselves accountable for their actions while serving under the NPO, and being part of the 1V/Q core. So this war is now about revenge, about nothing.

Well folks, it was nice while it lasted I must say, but alas, we must all return to face reality. Care to join?

[Mathias]

I have a dream that people will stop seeing ghosts around ever corner. Polar isn't the boogeyman, and neither is Frostbite. We have a problem with the way you're doing business, and we said it to your face. We haven't been having whispered conversations in the backrooms, or creating secret forums to plot your downfall. Paranoia will get you nowhere.

My tinfoil hat tells me otherwise.

[Drostan]

Do keep in mind that those most adamant about giving the NPO harsh terms, and those saying that Sponge, etc. did not fight, are in fact those who were once key players in the Hegemony. Sparta, MHA, etc., have all demonstrated that although they looked great compared to NPO (which isn't saying much), on their own they lose a lot of face and are capable of being quite undesirable. This whole thing about moral crusading, pushing the NPO and serving justice, its all a ruse. A mask, because they hope that by taking up this "cause" people might stay blind a little longer, and forget what they did in the past. Unfortunately for them, we don't.

These people aren't interested in bring justice, or balance, or anything. Because they can't, or else they would have to hold themselves accountable for their actions while serving under the NPO, and being part of the 1V/Q core. So this war is now about revenge, about nothing.

Well folks, it was nice while it lasted I must say, but alas, we must all return to face reality. Care to join?

You are right on time, RV. It never ceases to amaze me how you and several others honestly believe that you are the sun that Planet Bob orbits around.

I am saying Polaris did not fight in this particular war. And have already conceded that I unfairly expanded Grub's decree to the rest of Frost Bite when in fact it was Polaris and my conflation was unjust.

Haha, yes, we are wearing a mask, RV. Careful with your grammar or ES will not count you among his inner circle for "prosaic machinations". There are 18 alliances at war with Pacifica and between them I hope a reasonable peace will be reached. But speculating and accusing alliances like Sparta or MHA of having become as bad as the NPO or even close is unfounded and you know it.

We're not morally crusading, we've admitted that this was never black and white. The reality is that soon Karma will have disappeared into the sands of history and rather than erecting a new super bloc in place of the Continuum it will be a world with multiple poles of influence. That is a change no matter how much you may want to say otherwise.

My tinfoil hat tells me otherwise.

You're tinfoil hat talks to you? Weirdo!

Edited July 9, 2009 by Drostan

[Rebel Virginia]

You are right on time, RV. It never ceases to amaze me how you and several others honestly believe that you are the sun that Planet Bob orbits around.

Well quite frankly, my child, the world does revolve around me. I do not understand how a reasonable man such as yourself can deny such a simply scientific truth.

I am saying Polaris did not fight in this particular war. And have already conceded that I unfairly expanded Grub's decree to the rest of Frost Bite when in fact it was Polaris and my conflation was unjust.

I thought we were talking about Sponge, and not Polar. Believe me, my son, there is quite a distinct difference between the two, if you can allow yourself to believe it. I know it will be hard, but please, do try.

Haha, yes, we are wearing a mask, RV. Careful with your grammar or ES will not count you among his inner circle for "prosaic machinations". There are 18 alliances at war with Pacifica and between them I hope a reasonable peace will be reached. But speculating and accusing alliances like Sparta or MHA of having become as bad as the NPO or even close is unfounded and you know it.

They've been at war for a couple of months now, and you've beaten them into submission. Their hold on the world is broken, and there is no way for them to regain in it in the foreseeable future. Your objective has been completed. Why continue this besides some petty desire for revenge? I have seen the terms you've offered, and they are ridiculous. I am far from the NPO's biggest fan, however, just show some mercy. Be the bigger man and break the cycle of revenge, as Sponge has already said. But then again, you are cut from the same cloth as that which you claim to fight against, so I'm not going to hold my breath.

We're not morally crusading, we've admitted that this was never black and white. The reality is that soon Karma will have disappeared into the sands of history and rather than erecting a new super bloc in place of the Continuum it will be a world with multiple poles of influence. That is a change no matter how much you may want to say otherwise.

You can keep on saying this as much as you'd like, but it won't make it truth, because I and others know that you and yours were singing a far different tune leading up to and at the start of this war. My how we tend to forget such simple things.

[Drostan]

Well quite frankly, my child, the world does revolve around me. I do not understand how a reasonable man such as yourself can deny such a simply scientific truth.

I thought we were talking about Sponge, and not Polar. Believe me, my son, there is quite a distinct difference between the two, if you can allow yourself to believe it. I know it will be hard, but please, do try.

They've been at war for a couple of months now, and you've beaten them into submission. Their hold on the world is broken, and there is no way for them to regain in it in the foreseeable future. Your objective has been completed. Why continue this besides some petty desire for revenge? I have seen the terms you've offered, and they are ridiculous. I am far from the NPO's biggest fan, however, just show some mercy. Be the bigger man and break the cycle of revenge, as Sponge has already said. But then again, you are cut from the same cloth as that which you claim to fight against, so I'm not going to hold my breath.

You can keep on saying this as much as you'd like, but it won't make it truth, because I and others know that you and yours were singing a far different tune leading up to and at the start of this war. My how we tend to forget such simple things.

My tune at the beginning of the war was actually pretty similar to now: win the war but I have no interest in seeing Pacifica cease to be. I honestly don't think anyone does. Vladimir annoys me to no end by times, but that is more interesting than pointless high-five threads forever.

I will repeat the cliche I used long ago in this discussion: those who do not bend break. I hope that we bend. Just promise me if we don't turn out to be the evil force you fear we are, you will acknowledge it!

[Owned-You]

I am saying Polaris did not fight in this particular war. And have already conceded that I unfairly expanded Grub's decree to the rest of Frost Bite when in fact it was Polaris and my conflation was unjust.

We're not morally crusading, we've admitted that this was never black and white. The reality is that soon Karma will have disappeared into the sands of history and rather than erecting a new super bloc in place of the Continuum it will be a world with multiple poles of influence. That is a change no matter how much you may want to say otherwise.

Technically, Polaris did fight in the Karma War. Not in the initial conflict nor in any large fronts, but from a technical standpoint we did enter in support of NSO & STA. We along with our allies however, refused to accept classification as a Karma member. However that did not stop many from speculating that we were in complete favor of Karma, unbeknownst to those individuals that we (Polaris) never wished to have any association to Karma for obvious reasons.

As for your statement on morally crusading, one could argue that your last statement is a bold-faced lie. In the initial stages of the war, there was a wide spread upheaval of propaganda stating moral superiority. Furthermore, that this morale standing would be the basis of future actions. The people of Planet Bob were promised an end to draconian terms, but have sadly been misguided in that sense. Thus, opinion has slowly began to shift back to a more neutral objective standpoint as opposed to mindlessly hailing any Karma actions.

Though to a degree I suppose you could make the assertion your no longer making a morale crusade. But as you said Karma is an 18 alliance strong coalition, so to make a sweeping generalization would be unwise. Furthermore, if your alliance has never been fighting about the morale standards Karma claimed to uphold, why on earth did you allow yourselves to ride up the PR wave associated with her?

[mattski133]

Quoting it because it illustrated my feelings being in a position much like HeinousOne. It comes off as being paranoid and grasping at straws when none exist. If Frostbite had an agenda I'm quite sure there would be an official statement issued from Frostbite concerning the stance we wish to take. However, as evident by the lack of the aforementioned statement were not concerned by Karma's peace process. But when you take a widely known global conflict and plaster a plethora of topics concerning said war; chances are members of alliances around the world will have there opinions on the matter. Thus, I can personally say I find it distasteful and slightly insulting that the opinons of my alliance and others and Frostbite are attempted to be construed as hostile when in reality they are only observent and intent to spur community disscussion to improve Planet Bob as a whole.

Everyone simply needs to relax and realize what seperates friend from foe as that line has been blured in the haze of propaganda.

I didn't say hostile. I just don't know what it is exactly that you guys are doing. I've seen Grub's post, and I've seen Tyga's posts on the Karma boards, and I've seen NSO's posts here. I'm not drawing my conclusion from a single member, but a collection of events. And my conclusion is not that you are hostile or plotting something, but that I don't grip the relationship you have with this war right now.

Anyway...the sooner this ends the better. And NPO knows that. And they are dragging it out in the hopes that Karma will fracture. Maybe they'll get a better deal as a result of this external pressure. I don't know.

[King DrunkWino]

Thank you for revealing yourself as a Pacifican agent, King DrunkWino. Officials from the Drostan Ministry of Paranoia will be round to pick you up shortly.

First, you can drop the king bit. [ooc]I blame not quite understanding what I was signing up for when I signed up for CN.[/ooc] Second, shortly doesn't quite work for me. I'll need a touch more notice, gated community with guest list, you understand.

I don't think I've ever tried to say that they are trying to help NPO so much as harm public perception of Karma. Need I remind you that the decree was also more or less a threat as Grub would not "stand by while Karma tried to destroy" the NPO. Politics is always a popularity content and that's what this whole thing boils down to. NPO has already been weakened which pleases many in Frost Bite but that has in turn placed many like Sparta and TOP and others in pretty powerful positions. Once again, ES was one of the most vocal and so it is weird to see how much distance Polaris suddenly has from the evil actions of Karma. I don't think it's a crazy stretch to assume that Frost Bite no longer considers itself to be vying for power or popularity with Pacifica and so they would take the chance to set themselves apart from the 'crimes' of Karma as well at the same time as highlighting them in public. I don't propose conspiracy so much as opportunism.

Alright, that's a bit more of a reasonable line of thinking than a conspiracy, but it still has some problems. Politics is less a popularity contest than it is who happens to have the most sheer military power, which again follows a completely different line of logic. Mainly being, that Frostbite would be going out of it's way to offend those alliances in those powerful positions. Now if they have a legitimate reason or issue to do so, ok. Problem is, I just don't think anything that big is there.

Really what it goes back to, is you're seeing some vocal people give you their opinions on what's going on. It doesn't always have to be to jockey for political position or to set up some devious plot. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar after all and when you get right down to it, that's about what I'm trying to say. There are those in Frostbite that have had to deal with the short end of some very hard reps in the not to far off past. It shouldn't surprise anybody that they might have strong personal opinions on it.

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape thinking there's more to it than face value. Underneath the rhetoric and personal posting styles they're all saying the same message which is "Overly harsh reps suck ***. Please reconsider." Yes, I know we're specifically talking about the NPO here and comes equipped with a rather unique history, but the concept still holds true after all. Punish them? Sure, fine, ok. Take their crippled corpse out back and stick a grenade in their mouth? Mayyyybe that's a little much.

[Owned-You]

I didn't say hostile. I just don't know what it is exactly that you guys are doing. I've seen Grub's post, and I've seen Tyga's posts on the Karma boards, and I've seen NSO's posts here. I'm not drawing my conclusion from a single member, but a collection of events. And my conclusion is not that you are hostile or plotting something, but that I don't grip the relationship you have with this war right now.

Anyway...the sooner this ends the better. And NPO knows that. And they are dragging it out in the hopes that Karma will fracture. Maybe they'll get a better deal as a result of this external pressure. I don't know.

Although I don't speak for Polaris nor any of our allies. Based upon my limited knowledge, we are simply following on the war and commenting on issues surrounding it in an effort to expand social communique. It has been perceived by some as hostile, or opportunistic, and various other reasons. But in all honesty, we truly just wish to improve the community as a whole and end the cycle of draconian terms, and hegemonic tactics we've all been accustomed too over the years.

[Drostan]

Although I don't speak for Polaris nor any of our allies. Based upon my limited knowledge, we are simply following on the war and commenting on issues surrounding it in an effort to expand social communique. It has been perceived by some as hostile, or opportunistic, and various other reasons. But in all honesty, we truly just wish to improve the community as a whole and end the cycle of draconian terms, and hegemonic tactics we've all been accustomed too over the years.

That's fine, just don't pretend that it's easier than it actually is. Believe it or not, some of us are still fighting toward that exact end. Breaking that cycle is not easy and does take time. It doesn't mean we should all cry that it's all failed because Echelon's terms were more harsh than anticipated. The NPO hasn't been forced to disband and there's still time to reach a peace agreement. With any luck, and perhaps a little push from Polaris, we will still be able to create a political landscape that doesn't involve one over-arching super bloc ruling the world with an iron hoof.

[Owned-You]

That's fine, just don't pretend that it's easier than it actually is. Believe it or not, some of us are still fighting toward that exact end. Breaking that cycle is not easy and does take time. It doesn't mean we should all cry that it's all failed because Echelon's terms were more harsh than anticipated. The NPO hasn't been forced to disband and there's still time to reach a peace agreement. With any luck, and perhaps a little push from Polaris, we will still be able to create a political landscape that doesn't involve one over-arching super bloc ruling the world with an iron hoof.

Oh, I'm by no means saying the fighting you nor others are partaking in is easy by any stretch of the imagination. I've fought in GWIII, UJW, TPWII, and various other conflicts. I'm under no illusions about the determination it takes to undergo large, protracted conflict with a large well organized opponent. However, anything short of disbandment does not automatically make it just nor right in the eyes of the world. Barring government is something I despise, the decency clause is a slap in the face, and these terms are nothing short of the equivelent to tried and true Hegemonic methods. Thus I and my compatriots cru foul and raise alarm to the masses. As for the involvement of my own alliance, that is out of my hands and up to Grub to decide whatever course we may take. Ultimatly, it will be the right one as Grub has lead us supurbly thus far and will continue to do so in my estimation and I'm sure many others.

[Sylar]

Instead of the peace mode thing why dont you guys just ask them to decom nukes to like 20 and decom all military wonders(save SDI & cant do MP) as that will surely mean you guys will notice if there gonna hit you lol better then PM term to me. lets try to end this, i would like a better then 1.5 environment.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Sylar

[kevin32891]

I love seeing how no one will answer M_hawk.

[ShinRa]

I love seeing how no one will answer M_hawk.

You mean when he made a very short and largely out of place statement three or four pages ago?

[kevin32891]

You mean when he made a very short and largely out of place statement three or four pages ago?

Yes I'm talking about what he said. You guys love to throw the word Viceroy around when in

fact one of the alliances in Karma did the very same thing. But hey its ok when they did it right?

[ShinRa]

Yes I'm talking about what he said. You guys love to throw the word Viceroy around when in

fact one of the alliances in Karma did the very same thing. But hey its ok when they did it right?

If you want to turn this into a shooting match between who's alliance has committed the most morally questionable and hypocrite actions, then I’m game.

Lord knows the NPO has done much more than RoK and far worse.

And before you say it, no that does not make what they did right.

But your actions do overshadow it, I have not heard any word of RoK abusing it’s role as viceroy, and you are in no position to judge someone upon such an action.

Out of interest who was it that invented the idea of using Viceroys? I’ve heard it being accused at a few alliances in the past but I’ve not heard who actually came up with the damned idea.

Edited July 9, 2009 by ShinRa

[potato]

Yes I'm talking about what he said. You guys love to throw the word Viceroy around when in

fact one of the alliances in Karma did the very same thing. But hey its ok when they did it right?

What point exactly are you trying to prove and/or make?

[kevin32891]

What point exactly are you trying to prove and/or make?

I'm responding to what m_hawk said and stating how Karma is constantly saying that the NPO

put Viceroys in alliances, and its one of the reasons we are being punished for it. Which is true.

But why does RoK get away with it, because they saw the light and joined Karma?

And I really don't understand why I had to explain myself. Either you're a troll or an idiot.

[Prodigal Moon]

But speculating and accusing alliances like Sparta or MHA of having become as bad as the NPO or even close is unfounded and you know it.

I think you might've missed RV's point. You guys stood shoulder to shoulder with NPO defending their regime for over a year. And now that we have new alliances on top, they're (so far, at least) not doing a very good job of distinguishing themselves from the old regime. It remains to be seen exactly why some alliances are facing "karma," and ohters are the embodiment of "karma," when a lot of them were on the same side up until the week the war started.

[ShinRa]

I'm responding to what m_hawk said and stating how Karma is constantly saying that the NPO

put Viceroys in alliances, and its one of the reasons we are being punished for it. Which is true.

But why does RoK get away with it, because they saw the light and joined Karma?

And I really don't understand why I had to explain myself. Either you're a troll or an idiot.

Kevin, there have been eight recorded viceroys being placed upon alliances. One was from RoK, the other from your sister alliance and the other six from the NPO.

There is a difference between one offence, and six repeated offences.

Edit:

Link to reference page:

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Viceroyalty

Edited July 9, 2009 by ShinRa

[potato]

I'm responding to what m_hawk said and stating how Karma is constantly saying that the NPO

put Viceroys in alliances, and its one of the reasons we are being punished for it. Which is true.

But why does RoK get away with it, because they saw the light and joined Karma?

And I really don't understand why I had to explain myself. Either you're a troll or an idiot.

Insulting me sure enhances your point. Good job. Please let Vladimir or Branimir do the talking, kid.

[TehChron]

If you want to turn this into a shooting match between who's alliance has committed the most morally questionable and hypocrite actions, then I’m game.

Lord knows the NPO has done much more than RoK and far worse.

And before you say it, no that does not make what they did right.

But your actions do overshadow it, I have not heard any word of RoK abusing it’s role as viceroy, and you are in no position to judge someone upon such an action.

Out of interest who was it that invented the idea of using Viceroys? I’ve heard it being accused at a few alliances in the past but I’ve not heard who actually came up with the damned idea.

The NPO did, only after coming to the conclusion that reps were worse.

Kind of ironic, actually.

[Drostan]

I think you might've missed RV's point. You guys stood shoulder to shoulder with NPO defending their regime for over a year. And now that we have new alliances on top, they're (so far, at least) not doing a very good job of distinguishing themselves from the old regime. It remains to be seen exactly why some alliances are facing "karma," and ohters are the embodiment of "karma," when a lot of them were on the same side up until the week the war started.

I think you must have missed the countless discussions that have already developed where Sparta has admitted that things are not black and white and I have personally said that I did not like the Karma moniker from the start. But it is hardly fair after the couple weeks that we've been 'on top' and are still engaged in the very war that severed Pacifica's grasp on the world to say that we aren't much different. There hasn't been a whole lot of time to distinguish ourselves has there? I agree that it remains to be seen. Pacifica sat atop this world for a long time to earn its reputation as a tyrant, let's not be so ready to brand everyone else because of one finalized surrender and another that is yet to be worked out.

[MagicalTrevor]

Instead of the peace mode thing why dont you guys just ask them to decom nukes to like 20 and decom all military wonders(save SDI & cant do MP) as that will surely mean you guys will notice if there gonna hit you lol better then PM term to me. lets try to end this, i would like a better then 1.5 environment.

Because it's incredibly easy to rebulk up from just 20nukes when you have over 600nations and still have your banking nations their to bank. Added to that they'd be under karmas protection for the terms (i dont get why this is used in terms, surely a NAP for length of terms makes more sense) they'll be able to rebuild quite well. Not as fast as Polar did, the length of war shouldn't be underestimated, but with economic wonders, low military and a intact bank, they'll be able to bounce back fast. Taking out the bank of Pacifica is a key objective for the war.

And everybody has the same GRL penalty, so it makes no difference what so ever.