Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Delta1212]

As stated previously, original terms stated that caffine was to be ejected and various levels of EZI. It also had some slightly ooc stuff specifically for caffine contained within the terms. If he didn't choose to leave a week ago these terms would still be there.

The precursor was that he had to put "I valued my infra so much I hid in peace mode for the Karma war" in his nation bio. That was the only other term ever on the table for him.

[Caliph]

I must have struck a cord. The ridiculous claims have begun. No, I don't care what Heg has done in the past but one of the tenants of logic is that two wrongs do not make a right.

And its quite obvious what happened, to be able to sustain an eternal war, to have the threat of eternal war, they needed to reduce the number of nations they would be holding out against. The lower profile alliances and those that attempted to surrender earlier got it easier.

The point here is clear.

Echelon an alliance that had done nothing except defend an ally as the treaty asked, was forced by circumstances to remain this long in the war, was given some of the harshest terms ever witnessed. Reduced to a tech farm and humiliated by terms that demand they remain cute, the fate of this alliance demonstrates it is irrelevent what the NPO has done in the past. Karma is out to flex its muscles, it will plunder and pillage regardless.

Mushroom Kingdom, enterring the No-CB war to defend an ally, was forced to pay Echelon 10,000 tech, was forced to Pay VE, NPO, and others tens of thousands of tech, and was forced to permentely recind their First Strike nuclear policy, due to them enterring the war in defense of an ally.

Really, if you want go down this road, its not going to end well for you. History isn't on your side here.

[Israfeel]

Mushroom Kingdom, enterring the No-CB war to defend an ally, was forced to pay Echelon 10,000 tech, was forced to Pay VE, NPO, and others tens of thousands of tech, and was forced to permentely recind their First Strike nuclear policy, due to them enterring the war in defense of an ally.

Really, if you want go down this road, its not going to end well for you. History isn't on your side here.

I guarantee these terms are worse.

Hmm, I see your point though. So Karma is the new Heg. Kinda like, You have toppled the tyrant only to sit in his throne.

I guess we will have to wait for our next savior.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Israfeel

[Heft]

So then, I should just keep them down.

Seriously, if they don't want ot accept peace terms, and if they're going to strike at me if I let them go, it makes most sense to prevent them from ever striking at me until they are never going to be a threat again. It's what NPO did with FAN, and hey, it worked.

If the NPO wants to get out of this, it has to either be made to not be able to launch attacks on anyone for a bit. It's either going to be at war for a while, or have a large about terms to follow. It won't cripple them to death, they'll eventually bounce back, as most alliances do, but they're going to have to be weakened.

I'm just saying what Karma's thoughts are btw. I'd have given them white peace by now. (But tbh, it's really tempting to keep them at war for as long as FAN was, then declare on them in the middle of their terms for a very slight violation, just like they did to FAN.)

Yes, well, it is more or less exactly what the NPO and the hegemony in general did. Keeping opponents down and in a position where they can't come back to challenge you. It is pretty much the foundation of every act that people associate with "hegemony." It is the basis of ZI, then PZI, then EZI. It is the basis of outrageous reparations. It is the basis of viceroys. It is the basis of wars of curb stomps. It is the basis of political isolation.

It works. It's also an extremely easy thought to get carried away with, and makes it extremely easy to justify previously unjustifiable actions. Finally, it is the very core of what this war was supposed to be about.

[Tygaland]

Mushroom Kingdom, enterring the No-CB war to defend an ally, was forced to pay Echelon 10,000 tech, was forced to Pay VE, NPO, and others tens of thousands of tech, and was forced to permentely recind their First Strike nuclear policy, due to them enterring the war in defense of an ally.

Really, if you want go down this road, its not going to end well for you. History isn't on your side here.

Their argument works perfectly when arguing with goldfish though.

[WarriorConcept]

I must have struck a cord. The ridiculous claims have begun. No, I don't care what Heg has done in the past but one of the tenants of logic is that two wrongs do not make a right.

And its quite obvious what happened, to be able to sustain an eternal war, to have the threat of eternal war, they needed to reduce the number of nations they would be holding out against. The lower profile alliances and those that attempted to surrender earlier got it easier.

The point here is clear.

Echelon an alliance that had done nothing except defend an ally as the treaty asked, was forced by circumstances to remain this long in the war, was given some of the harshest terms ever witnessed. Reduced to a tech farm and humiliated by terms that demand they remain cute, the fate of this alliance demonstrates it is irrelevent what the NPO has done in the past. Karma is out to flex its muscles, it will plunder and pillage regardless.

Don't give yourself too much credit, I've always hated people who argue for convenience and not for the same thing over the years.

So you're saying GGA and Valhalla were lower profile? Please those fronts were doing very well and could've kept going on for quite a while, don't delude yourself into thinking it was a deadlock.

Yeah I'm sure you'd have a point if karma was a bloc and actually controlled each other's terms, however they don't and each front was handled individually and thus your argument in mute on that point. Go argue to those alliances that did give those terms though.

[Earogema]

I must have struck a cord. The ridiculous claims have begun. No, I don't care what Heg has done in the past but one of the tenants of logic is that two wrongs do not make a right.

And its quite obvious what happened, to be able to sustain an eternal war, to have the threat of eternal war, they needed to reduce the number of nations they would be holding out against. The lower profile alliances and those that attempted to surrender earlier got it easier.

The point here is clear.

Echelon an alliance that had done nothing except defend an ally as the treaty asked, was forced by circumstances to remain this long in the war, was given some of the harshest terms ever witnessed. Reduced to a tech farm and humiliated by terms that demand they remain cute, the fate of this alliance demonstrates it is irrelevent what the NPO has done in the past. Karma is out to flex its muscles, it will plunder and pillage regardless.

I was going to disagree with you, but looking at some stats, 34,000 tech out of 51,000 tech, without being able to use tech selling nations, is remarkably harsh.

EDIT: remarkably harsh isn't quite right, but it's something that's not agreeable.

Edited July 6, 2009 by MegaAros

[Matthew Conrad]

I guarantee these terms are worse.

Hmm, I see your point though. So Karma is the new Heg. Kinda like, You have toppled the tyrant only to sit in his throne.

I guess we will have to wait for our next savior.

I must have missed the memo when we declared our official bloc treaty.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

I guarantee these terms are worse.

Hmm, I see your point though. So Karma is the new Heg. Kinda like, You have toppled the tyrant only to sit in his throne.

I guess we will have to wait for our next savior.

Because Karma is here to stay <- Note the sarcasm.

[iamthey]

Mushroom Kingdom, enterring the No-CB war to defend an ally, was forced to pay Echelon 10,000 tech, was forced to Pay VE, NPO, and others tens of thousands of tech, and was forced to permentely recind their First Strike nuclear policy, due to them enterring the war in defense of an ally.

Really, if you want go down this road, its not going to end well for you. History isn't on your side here.

Read the second paragraph of his response.

[Israfeel]

Don't give yourself too much credit, I've always hated people who argue for convenience and not for the same thing over the years.

So you're saying GGA and Valhalla were lower profile? Please those fronts were doing very well and could've kept going on for quite a while, don't delude yourself into thinking it was a deadlock.

Yeah I'm sure you'd have a point if karma was a bloc and actually controlled each other's terms, however they don't and each front was handled individually and thus your argument in mute on that point. Go argue to those alliances that did give those terms though.

It shouldn't matter why I make the points I do, the argument is what you are after in a debate.

GGA and Valhalla were lower profile compared to the NPO, yes. And Karma is unorganized... Good excuse. (I am not arguing that fact, only pointing out it does not justify doing EXACTLY what you fought against, and exactly down to the letter and perhaps going even further)

[Seth Muscarella]

we can all keep saying that the reps are unreasonable and that karma is becoming just as bad as NPO, but i believe that most of the actions against NPO have been completely predictable and necessary for the good of Bob.

Nobody will doubt that over the years NPO has forced harsh reparations, weak excuses for war, revenge on any alliance crossing them, even to the point of disbandment and entire alliances having to hide in peace mode. They have also manipulated allies and set up multiple power blocs in order to keep their rule absolute. Given this steady trend of power abuse, the logical choice is to cripple the alliance that has so long caused this abuse--not for revenge purposes--but simply to ensure the future safety of the alliances that NPO is currently planning to target later.

Yes, the terms given to NPO were strict, but what reps aren't? NPO decided that instead of considering terms, they would go ahead and try a last-ditch attempt for PR by posting the "unreasonable" reparation and war mode requirements. I feel that despite NPO's actions throughout this, we should still be striving for peace and a clear end to this conflict. The Karma side needs to remain patient in negotiations and decide when enough is enough, offering the terms needed to achieve their set goals.

[Azhrarn]

I have seen the terms offered to Pacifica, they are pathetic and spiteful. I do not care about your maths, your thought process or your justifications for the terms, they are wrong to the very core. There is no conceivable justification that promotes the sense of community regulation contained in those terms. They are designed to fracture, humiliate and destroy, they are not punishment they are simply a kick to the head of a man lying bleeding in the gutter.

o/ Polaris

I'm not reading 11 pages before commenting on this.

This isn't a perfect world. You set your priorities, and you take what you can get. The vast majority of the alliances which fought for the NPO received White Peace, even when they didn't deserve it. The idea was to peace out the meat shields because Karma's priority was to get at the masterminds, the spiders at the center of the web.

So Karma has already brought change to CN - change for the better - because many alliances did in fact get off with a slap on the wrist. Now whether or not they will learn from that remains to be seen.

But the NPO is the exception. I fully expect to see them made an example of, and once this is over, then, and only then, will we be able to say that we've left these dark times behind us.

a kick to the head of a man lying bleeding in the gutter.

I think that's just a little over the top.

The NPO isn't being forced to disband, as it's forced so many other alliances to disband in the past.

The NPO isn't being forced to expel it's government members, as it's forced so many other alliances to do in the past.

The NPO isnn't being forced to accept a Viceroy, as it's forced so many other alliances to do in the past.

The NPO isn't being forced to turn over control of its forums and IRC channels, as it's forced so many other alliances to do in the past.

I've never understood the double-standards that the NPO has continually imposed upon Planet Bob. The NPO it seems, is free to push the limits of asshattery again and again, and no one is allowed to complain because that's just who they are - the bad guys. But the moment that anyone tries to hold them to even a fraction of the same standards to which they've held everyone else, all we hear are endless cries of "Foul."

That man lying bleeding in the gutter has actually been in peace mode for most of the war, while allies in other alliances were being beaten to a bloody pulp. He still has a massive warchest, still has large numbers of military wonders and huge tech levels. And more importantly, he still has the same arrogant beliefs that got him into this war in the first place. The NPO of today, is still the same NPO of 3 years ago.

I'd like to see some sign of contrition, some sign of change, before hearing all these cries for mercy.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Bob Sanders]

No. He admitted to planning a defensive war, what do to if NPO attacked an ally. They actively planned a defensive war, and developed a defensive strategy aimed at protecting their own interests in the case that NPO and other NPO allies partook in an offense war against one of their allies.

Karma's entire strategy was based on baiting the Hegemony into a trap. That is not a passive defense by any stretch of the imagination. They were actively planning the destruction of their supposedly close allies.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Bob Sanders

[Earogema]

Incorrect, Karma's entire strategy was based on baiting the Hegemony into a trap. That is not a passive defense by any stretch of the imagination. They were actively planning the destruction of their supposedly close allies.

If you all knew it was bait, why did you take it?

EDIT: Also, that's just stupid. A defensive is a defensive, it's what happens.

Edited July 6, 2009 by MegaAros

[BamaBuc]

You throw away the argument by labeling it a "grudge." The point still stands that your new moral outrage that you've deemed fit to start spewing once you've joined TPF was never present in your nature before this war. If you've honestly held these types of feeling forever and your moral compass didn't just randomly change, I wonder where you've been these past few years fighting for those "SOME ALLIANCES."

I didn't hold these views on the Karma War before the Karma War because the Karma War hadn't happened yet.

As for my being allied to TPF over the years, I say this: My crime was not talking to my allies in private when I disagreed with what they were doing. Instead I stayed quiet and rationalized it to myself. That is not what a good friend should do. That said, I do not for a second regret standing by them through it all. What kind of friend backs out on his buddies because of a disgreement over politics?

-Bama

[Moridin]

If you all knew it was bait, why did you take it?

In all fairness, it was not Valhalla that took the bait or jumped the gun. They came in only later due to treaty obligations.

[WarriorConcept]

It shouldn't matter why I make the points I do, the argument is what you are after in a debate.

GGA and Valhalla were lower profile compared to the NPO, yes. And Karma is unorganized... Good excuse. (I am not arguing that fact, only pointing out it does not justify doing EXACTLY what you fought against, and exactly down to the letter and perhaps going even further)

GGA and Valhalla are still not considered low profile however, and those people on them could've kept on crushing them if they so wished but decided not to. Most of the people on those fronts I don't think were even on the NPO one or if they were had resources to spare.

The point of Karma was to have an organized war effort, not to strip any member of it of its sovereignty. The fact of the matter is that since Karma won't stay together, heck it's really already broken apart anyway, there is no new bloc or "top dog" as you've been putting it to stay in power and throw terms like this down in the future. We're entering a multi-polar world now and there is no new tC.

[Caliph]

Karma's entire strategy was based on baiting the Hegemony into a trap. That is not a passive defense by any stretch of the imagination. They were actively planning the destruction of their supposedly close allies.

How is NPO and TORN declaring offensive war against OV a trap?

OV had very public treaties, and those treaty partners also had very public treaties.

You say "trap", I say do your research on your war targets better.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

Karma's entire strategy was based on baiting the Hegemony into a trap. That is not a passive defense by any stretch of the imagination. They were actively planning the destruction of their supposedly close allies.

Wait, we made NPO declare on OV?

[Earogema]

In all fairness, it was not Valhalla that took the bait or jumped the gun. They came in only later due to treaty obligations.

That's true, and if we accept the arguments that all the NPO treaties were canceled because of a lack of communication just prior to the war, I guess that's acceptable.

Still, if within Q they knew all about it, NPO too surely should have known.

[HellAngel]

I mostly agree with the OP. There should be an end to this. That being said, i dont really feel any compassion for NPO, but the alliances holding them down now shouldnt try to paint it any differently than it is - holding down an enemy out of fear he might rise again and come back to haunt them (which is, after all, also understandable. NPO has proven they'd do it if given the right political position).

[Israfeel]

I'm not reading 11 pages before commenting on this.

This isn't a perfect world. You set your priorities, and you take what you can get. The vast majority of the alliances which fought for the NPO received White Peace, even when they didn't deserve it. The idea was to peace out the meat shields because Karma's priority was to get at the masterminds, the spiders at the center of the web.

So Karma has already brought change to CN - change for the better - because many alliances did in fact get off with a slap on the wrist. Now whether or not they will learn from that remains to be seen.

But the NPO is the exception. I fully expect to see them made an example of, and once this is over, then, and only then, will we be able to say that we've left these dark times behind us.

I think that's just a little over the top.

The NPO isn't being forced to disband, as it's forced so many other alliances to disband in the past.

The NPO isn't being forced to expel it's government members, as it's forced so many other alliances to do in the past.

The NPO isnn't being forced to accept a Viceroy, as it's forced to many other alliances to do in the past.

The NPO isn't being forced to turn over control of its forums and IRC channels, as it's forced so many other alliances to do in the past.

I've never understood the continual double-standards that the NPO has continually imposed upon Planet Bob. The NPO it seems, is free to push the limits of asshattery again and again, and no one is allowed to complain because that's just who they are - the bad guys. But the moment that anyone tries to hold them to even a fraction of the same standards to which they've held everyone else, all we hear are endless cries of "Foul."

Great argument, except Echelon was not a "mastermind" of anything.

Karma has brought no change, opportunism has always existed. Like I said earlier, lower profile and earlier to surrender alliances were the first to be let off. Eternal war can only be threatened when you don't have to deal with 4k nations. Don't fool yourself into thinking so many were let off because of the kindness of Karma.

Your right, NPO is being asked to allow itself to be completely destroyed and then become a tech farm.

[Bob Sanders]

If you all knew it was bait, why did you take it?

EDIT: Also, that's just stupid. A defensive is a defensive, it's what happens.

I bet you think that ~ was the defensive side in UJW too. The strategy taken by Sponge in UJW and by Karma in this war were basicly identical. It was executed very well in both cases.

That's true, and if we accept the arguments that all the NPO treaties were canceled because of a lack of communication just prior to the war, I guess that's acceptable.

Still, if within Q they knew all about it, NPO too surely should have known.

I think you are under-estimating how well Karma played this. Several high-profile Karma alliances were heavily hinting that they would be on NPO's side until the very moment that war was declared. It was a trap and a damn good one at that.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Bob Sanders

[WarriorConcept]

I didn't hold these views on the Karma War before the Karma War because the Karma War hadn't happened yet.

As for my being allied to TPF over the years, I say this: My crime was not talking to my allies in private when I disagreed with what they were doing. Instead I stayed quiet and rationalized it to myself. That is not what a good friend should do. That said, I do not for a second regret standing by them through it all. What kind of friend backs out on his buddies because of a disgreement over politics?

-Bama

Not on the karma war, on harsh terms in general. Don't try to spin it, if you truly hated harsh terms I expect you would've been on the battlefield or here arguing as much in the past as you're doing now in the present. By admitting you don't regret standing by them at all you just proved my argument, you didn't care about what they'd been doing in the past as long as they didn't do it to you and you're bringing up arguments against harsh terms now because you're on the wrong side of it. Call it politics, I call it standing by your principles over the whole time, not just when it becomes convenient to.