Random Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Just to clarify my position, I considered LJ Scott's comments to be his and his alone.The rest of my flock agree with me because they have no choice. I respectfully disa---Jesus did you have to bite me? Okay fine. I am a sheep in Tyga's herd and as such he is almighty and all knowing, also he bites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I'm just going to walk away from this thread as it is clear that no matter how many times I state this some other Citadel member trots in to deliberately misrepresent what I said. Something I've learned over the years is that when seemingly everyone else "misunderstands" a post or statement of mine, more often than not (in spite of how it annoys me ><) the reason is that what I said did not adequately convey what I meant. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that your statements could be interpreted differently. Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Something I've learned over the years is that when seemingly everyone else "misunderstands" a post or statement of mine, more often than not (in spite of how it annoys me ><) the reason is that what I said did not adequately convey what I meant.You seem to be oblivious to the fact that your statements could be interpreted differently. Meh. Anyone who followed the conversation from the beginning or at the very least read my comments explaining what I meant to those who had not bothered following the conversation would have been well aware of what I meant and why I was saying what I said. Nice try though. Regardless of how much you try to spin, the facts do not support you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Anyone who followed the conversation from the beginning or at the very least read my comments explaining what I meant to those who had not bothered following the conversation would have been well aware of what I meant and why I was saying what I said. Apparently not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Apparently not. You didn't bother to read the qualifiers, did you? Not unexpected, you were the slowest on the uptake to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 You didn't bother to read the qualifiers, did you? Not unexpected, you were the slowest on the uptake to begin with. Which is funny, because of all these people you are complaining about, I actually attempted to ask you what you meant when it was clear I misunderstood it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Which is funny, because of all these people you are complaining about, I actually attempted to ask you what you meant when it was clear I misunderstood it. I find Tyga's posts to always be pretty straight forward. It really does leave me staring when people actually miss the meaning in his words I still can't fathom how anybody could misunderstand him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) Which is funny, because of all these people you are complaining about, I actually attempted to ask you what you meant when it was clear I misunderstood it. You did and it only took me two attempts to point out what I was saying and why before you finally got it. Although, you were quibbling about a different issue to the others. The fact that people still post missing the point even after numerous explanations is mindboggling if they really did follow the conversation from the beginning. For reference, my first post on the matter was here. I'm still at a loss how anyone who read that thought I advocated direct democracy as the only method to determine how to use votes in a bloc poll when it is clear LJ Scott raised it in his post and I merely discussed the process that he raised. As I said, I highly doubt any of you bothered to follow the conversation and took posts out of context which is fair enough, it happens. But why I need to keep pointing that out time after time to people who then claim they did read the entire conversation (including the previous explanations directed to those who made a similar mistake) is not so easily understood. This isn't even taking into account that I lead a non-democratic alliance meaning it is highly unlikely I'd be singing the praises of direct democracy on this forum. Edited June 28, 2009 by Tygaland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyber Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 The screenshots didn't come from Polar. They came from an agent of the NPO. I ignored your question before as it was off-topic. It's still off-topic. Please refer to the last dozen times I have explained this in the last dozen TOP threads. I will have to reinvestigate this, but I was lead to believe that it was a FAN spy that dropped those screenshots off. They were never asked for either. From my understanding they were just dropped off because it was known that we didn't get along with eachother at the time. If you have evidence that it was an NPO spy or leak that dropped those off, I am willing to listen, feel free to pm with the evidence. It would be stupid of me to discount the possibility, but I have my doubts, please understand. Also, it was not the reason for the war from my understanding. You have to excuss me once again as I was not here at the time, but from my understanding TOP at the time believed that NpO was a threat, not as it was, but one that if ever rose out of isolation and found itself on a side that can bring about war to Paradoxia and win, that it would do it. Significantly weakening NpO would secure our future for some time. Reasons were lack of trust built from six months of going back and forth at it on these forums, along with a close incident or two which almost went hot, makes one paranoid. Plus the knowledge that even with ES gone many in NpO still loved the man and may have been even more resentful at what was taking place and may place blame on TOP, didn't help those in TOP from holding back. Take into account a long history of vengence, there was no way TOP felt safe with NpO a major power. It is much like right now with people continuely pounding on the NPO, knowing that if they let them out of this war, there will always be a hatred between them, and the NPO will take an opertunity to destroy them should the roles ever be reversed. This war has long siezed to be about OV and is now a mix of vengence and common stratigic sense. So please don't bring it down to one screenshot some FAN spy dropped at some forum as being the reason to war. If the lines of communication were open could it have changed things? I believe so. Did NpO try to open those lines? Yes, but only after they were politically isolated, so it wasn't seen as honest. That said if you or the NpO one day have the upper hand and wish to bring war to TOP's door due to it, I would understand, I wouldn't condem you for it. Our war with you was no noble crusade against evil, it was us trying to take out a threat before it took us out. And I'm sure we were seen as a threat to you as when ES was removed and you were isolated all of a sudden communication became important with us. Would you have gone to war with us if you had the upper hand? I'm not sure, and I don't believe you can be either, but I'm sure it will be debated. Anyways mate, I don't fault you for your grudge, I just wanted to be clear that one guy dropping screenshots at a forum (I thought it was the OWFs to be honest, but could be wrong and may just be our general forums or via pms, too lazy to check right now) does not constitue spying or endorsing spying. And the screenshots, while they may have played a factor in making the decison to go to war, were not the reason. There are others the know more about what happened, and may correct me, but I actually looked into the matter a couple of months ago to try and understand how things went down out of curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 That's simply not true. And regurgitating a statement without an argument isn't a going to prove the point. It wasn't obvious which side most of the Citadel was taking at all. Days before the war started while the NPO and TPF were grilling OV over their alleged spying, certain government members in the Citadel were flat out against siding with VE and CnG. They said that the time wasn't right and that OV wasn't worth it. They needed to be persuaded. Though I will grant you that the TOP wildcard was obvious when the sides started getting clear. It's a little thing TOP likes to do. If you are referring to Chill, that's pretty weak. At worst he wanted Gre to stay neutral, and he was way against the current of the rest of Gre on that one who had somewhat of a revolt against what he was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denial Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 If you are referring to Chill, that's pretty weak. At worst he wanted Gre to stay neutral, and he was way against the current of the rest of Gre on that one who had somewhat of a revolt against what he was doing. In the earliest days of this conflict, prior to the first shots being fired, Sal Paradise is correct. It was more than just Chill. For two to three days, while the 'negotiations' were under way (i.e. accusations of spying and attempts by NPO and TPF to persuade C&G to remain neutral in the upcoming war) it looked as if C&G, Super Friends and Viridian Entente would be defending Ordo Verde alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I will have to reinvestigate this, but I was lead to believe that it was a FAN spy that dropped those screenshots off. They were never asked for either. From my understanding they were just dropped off because it was known that we didn't get along with eachother at the time. If you have evidence that it was an NPO spy or leak that dropped those off, I am willing to listen, feel free to pm with the evidence. It would be stupid of me to discount the possibility, but I have my doubts, please understand. All due respect to my friends in FAN, but they never had anyone that high-ranked in Polar. Never. The spy was Griswalds; that became pretty clear when NPO tried to place him on the throne. When they realised who was supplying the screenshots and removed his access, suddenly no new screens were appearing. Amazing how that worked. Come on. If you are referring to Chill, that's pretty weak. At worst he wanted Gre to stay neutral, and he was way against the current of the rest of Gre on that one who had somewhat of a revolt against what he was doing. It was more than just Chill. As the negotiations dragged on, more Citadel leaders came to the conclusion that the situation was less-than-ideal and that it wasn't worth going to war for. Even more than just Chill within Gre seemed to be backing off by the day before the war. It was only NPO's colossal screw-up that really cemented things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 In the earliest days of this conflict, prior to the first shots being fired, Sal Paradise is correct. It was more than just Chill. For two to three days, while the 'negotiations' were under way (i.e. accusations of spying and attempts by NPO and TPF to persuade C&G to remain neutral in the upcoming war) it looked as if C&G, Super Friends and Viridian Entente would be defending Ordo Verde alone. Who else was making such comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I don't think this is really the place for that discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I don't think this is really the place for that discussion The precedent has already been set that those in power in Planet Bob get all their internal policies discussed on these forums; bit late to change your mind about that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terveis Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) The precedent has already been set that those in power in Planet Bob get all their internal policies discussed on these forums; bit late to change your mind about that now. Who are "those" that are in power, and why should anyone care about what they think or want? Edited June 28, 2009 by terveis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jer Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I don't think this is really the place for that discussion Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Who are "those" that are in power, and why should anyone care about what they think or want? If you don't think Citadel are a powerful alliance bloc, you really haven't been paying attention. As for the second question - it was made pretty clear by the denizens of these forums for the past few months that the internal goings-on in Continuum were everyone's business. I was just saying that now that Continuum is out of power, that will obviously slide to the alliance groupings now in power, and people who used to praise publications like TWiP really have no place complaining about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terveis Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 If you don't think Citadel are a powerful alliance bloc, you really haven't been paying attention. I am too tired, i completely misread what you posted first, now i feel stupid. Better to take a nap before returning here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 If you don't think Citadel are a powerful alliance bloc, you really haven't been paying attention. As for the second question - it was made pretty clear by the denizens of these forums for the past few months that the internal goings-on in Continuum were everyone's business. I was just saying that now that Continuum is out of power, that will obviously slide to the alliance groupings now in power, and people who used to praise publications like TWiP really have no place complaining about it. TWiG just sounds silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Why not? Because it's not related to OG leaving the bloc, it's not relevant since Grämlins did fight for Karma (and were always likely to do so in a defensive situation, in my view) and it would almost certainly breach confidentiality since the things were probably said in query. and people who used to praise publications like TWiP really have no place complaining about it. There aren't many of those people in Citadel anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hizzy Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Because it's not related to OG leaving the bloc, it's not relevant since Grämlins did fight for Karma (and were always likely to do so in a defensive situation, in my view) and it would almost certainly breach confidentiality since the things were probably said in query. What if someone promised not to breach confidentiality in exchange for you getting a half-decent avatar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Replacing an excellent avatar with a merely half-decent would be a poor exchange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelrat Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) That's simply not true. And regurgitating a statement without an argument isn't a going to prove the point. It wasn't obvious which side most of the Citadel was taking at all. Days before the war started while the NPO and TPF were grilling OV over their alleged spying, certain government members in the Citadel were flat out against siding with VE and CnG. They said that the time wasn't right and that OV wasn't worth it. They needed to be persuaded. Though I will grant you that the TOP wildcard was obvious when the sides started getting clear. It's a little thing TOP likes to do. In the earliest days of this conflict, prior to the first shots being fired, Sal Paradise is correct. It was more than just Chill. For two to three days, while the 'negotiations' were under way (i.e. accusations of spying and attempts by NPO and TPF to persuade C&G to remain neutral in the upcoming war) it looked as if C&G, Super Friends and Viridian Entente would be defending Ordo Verde alone. It was more than just Chill. As the negotiations dragged on, more Citadel leaders came to the conclusion that the situation was less-than-ideal and that it wasn't worth going to war for. Even more than just Chill within Gre seemed to be backing off by the day before the war. It was only NPO's colossal screw-up that really cemented things. Grämlins part was absolutly clear, without any doubt, that we won´t let FARK or MK burn in hell. The ties were obvious with FARK being in SF and MK in C&G. Chill did his duty as Grämlin´s Praetor, he tried to balance the need of every Grämlin´s ally with Grämlins interest at heart. Clearly while doing that he sat on the fence and pissed of some. Chill is a smart guy and he knew that staying neutral was no option and if you knew how close Grämlins are to FARK and MK you won´t doubt one second. Just for example, FARK and Grämlins played CN:TE (round 4?) together under FARK´s Flag and Grämlins worked with MK and several others on a very advanced warguide, including tactics and strategies of every size and matter. And no you won´t get that guide I hope that clears once and for all the guessing and Grämlins stand on that issue. Edited June 28, 2009 by Steelrat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Näktergal Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Compared to us who have never taken reps from a war its a lot in comparison. Well, to be fair, they had a lot more opportunities to demand reps than the FCC did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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