Roadie Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 wait...Are you saying there isn't enough drama under the surface here to make a 200 page thread? Well, depends on what our terms end up being, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Actually, former TORN was... I haven't heard much from TORN other than "you wont get drama" and I am doing my best to put forth the facts that I know in order to squash inaccuracies. Admittedly I am no longer TORN and everything didn't stop when i left so there are things that may have happened i don't know about. Well I also remember a certain statement by a torn member saying it was a gradual seperation. But yes, it does seem to be a couple former members whom are now allies of mine that are speaking up for Torn. I will do my best to remain civil and respectful with you guys. Just keep in mind where you got your facts. I know the story I heard was only from one side, I learned something tonight from your side that adds to what I knew but that still doesn't excuse some particular actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdasda10 Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Well I also remember a certain statement by a torn member saying it was a gradual seperation. I don't believe that many people on either side would deny that a gradual cooling of relations did occur. However, there were several events that occured which also played a large part in this. That being said, I wish TPF all the best. It is unfortunate that the new goverment of TORN did not have time to restore this once great relationship. Perhaps somewhere down the road we will meet again. Until then, take care TPF. Edited June 16, 2009 by the great sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Congratulations TORN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sileath Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Well, depends on what our terms end up being, I suppose. (I'm going to get in trouble for saying this) TPF is going to have to pay reparations? Are you !@#$@#$ kidding me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatsam Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) I concur completely with that sentiment; I can't see TPF's attackers granting them a white peace, but they surely don't deserve anything worse than that. Anything more would simply be extortion. Edited June 16, 2009 by Floatsam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Hakai Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Congratulations to TORN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choader Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I concur completely with that sentiment; I can't see TPF's attackers granting them a white peace, but they surely don't deserve anything worse than that. Anything more would simply be extortion. Anything other then white peace is extortion now? I never knew the NPO Kool Aid was that potent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sileath Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Anything other then white peace is extortion now? I never knew the NPO Kool Aid was that potent. NPO and TPF are in very different positions in this war in my perspective. NPO (along with TORN) started this war, so they should get big reps to pay. TPF, involved due to their alliance with NPO, is representing the Karma value of friends before infrastructure. I don't know how in good conscience reparations could be expected from TPF when no reps were required from so many other alliances who bowed out of the war early to save their infrastructure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Ubet Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 NPO and TPF are in very different positions in this war in my perspective.NPO (along with TORN) started this war, so they should get big reps to pay. TPF, involved due to their alliance with NPO, is representing the Karma value of friends before infrastructure. I don't know how in good conscience reparations could be expected from TPF when no reps were required from so many other alliances who bowed out of the war early to save their infrastructure. I might just start a poll about that to see what other people think but I don't know if I really feel like it soooooo if anybody else wouldn't mind to do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choader Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) NPO and TPF are in very different positions in this war in my perspective.NPO (along with TORN) started this war, so they should get big reps to pay. TPF, involved due to their alliance with NPO, is representing the Karma value of friends before infrastructure. I don't know how in good conscience reparations could be expected from TPF when no reps were required from so many other alliances who bowed out of the war early to save their infrastructure. Have you forgotten the OV intimidation logs where Mhawk was front and center trying to extract a confession out of SethB? Who was it running the spy that gave TPF, TORN and NPO information on OV gov's conversations with Blackstone? If I'm not mistaken, that was TPF. Mhawk and TPF were more involved in the instigation of this war then anyone aside from TORN and NPO. Exorbitant reparations won't be demanded of TPF but they have a lot to answer for, white peace would be an insult. Edited June 16, 2009 by Choader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatsam Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Anything other then white peace is extortion now? I never knew the NPO Kool Aid was that potent. I never said what you are trying to accuse me of. Please bother to read my post. In this case, TPF has done one thing: defend her allies. The only kool aid consumed here was the stuff that made you forget about their circumstances and what has happened during this war. You are paying attention, no? Have you forgotten the OV intimidation logs where Mhawk was front and center trying to extract a confession out of SethB? Who was it running the spy that gave TPF, TORN and NPO information on OV gov's conversations with Blackstone? If I'm not mistaken, that was TPF. Mhawk and TPF we're more involved in instigating this war then anyone aside from TORN and NPO. They have a right to defend their allies' actions. Would you want your allies undermining your position during a crucial point in negotiations? Regardless of what is being discussed, you'd be a fool to say otherwise. Edited June 16, 2009 by Floatsam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperator G4G Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 And as usual, a thread contains a load of !@#$%^&* from people who haven't a clue of what they are talking about. Anyway, it's sad to see two allies go separate ways. Best of luck in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sileath Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Have you forgotten the OV intimidation logs where Mhawk was front and center trying to extract a confession out of SethB? Who was it running the spy that gave TPF, TORN and NPO information on OV gov's conversations with Blackstone? If I'm not mistaken, that was TPF. Mhawk and TPF were more involved in the instigation of this war then anyone aside from TORN and NPO.Exorbitant reparations won't be demanded of TPF but they have a lot to answer for, white peace would be an insult. TPF was being a good ally during the negotiations. TPF is not the alliance which attacked OV prior to the ending of negotiations. I'm pretty sure you can log dump any kind of negotiations from any alliance where you could point out that someone was intimidating someone else. Recall that at this time, TWiP was posting screenshots from the tC government forums. Do you blame mhawk for wanting to see if he could crack that nut? The folly was not in the negotiation nor in mhawk/TPF's involvement in such, but the dishonorable way in which NPO and TORN distracted OV's government while they ran their blitz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sileath Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 And as usual, a thread contains a load of !@#$%^&* from people who haven't a clue of what they are talking about. Be my guest to enlighten us as to the truth concerning this matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choader Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I never said what you are trying to accuse me of. Please bother to read my post.In this case, TPF has done one thing: defend her allies. The only kool aid consumed here was the stuff that made you forget about their circumstances and what has happened during this war. You are paying attention, no? They have a right to defend their allies' actions. Would you want your allies undermining your position during a crucial point in negotiations? Regardless of what is being discussed, you'd be a fool to say otherwise. They have a right to defend their allies' actions, and they have a right to be one of the major players pushing them. I won't bother posting a few feet of logs here but if you need a refresher on who was pushing for war with OV, here you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkMonkey Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Have you forgotten the OV intimidation logs where Mhawk was front and center trying to extract a confession out of SethB? Who was it running the spy that gave TPF, TORN and NPO information on OV gov's conversations with Blackstone? If I'm not mistaken, that was TPF. Mhawk and TPF were more involved in the instigation of this war then anyone aside from TORN and NPO.Exorbitant reparations won't be demanded of TPF but they have a lot to answer for, white peace would be an insult. There was no try, he confessed. The CB is valid, had it been any other alliance except NPO, very few would have disagreed with it. You do realize Blackstone is a spy ring do you not? Spying in general is frowned upon through out CN and has been the basis of several military engagements. TPF never ran a spy as you so blatantly claim and if you're going to make wild accusations like that, you better bring proof to back up your claim. It's one thing to ask a reasonable question, it is another to throw something out there just to fan the flames and further some two bit tin foil conspiracy. When something like this happens to FoB, will you offer the offender milk & cookies and sit them down for a nice one on one? I seriously doubt that. You will do what everyone else does, get them in private and go for the confession and demand a punishment or threaten war. That is how alliances ensure their security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 There was no try, he confessed. The CB is valid, had it been any other alliance except NPO, very few would have disagreed with it. You do realize Blackstone is a spy ring do you not? Spying in general is frowned upon through out CN and has been the basis of several military engagements. TPF never ran a spy as you so blatantly claim and if you're going to make wild accusations like that, you better bring proof to back up your claim. It's one thing to ask a reasonable question, it is another to throw something out there just to fan the flames and further some two bit tin foil conspiracy. When something like this happens to FoB, will you offer the offender milk & cookies and sit them down for a nice one on one? I seriously doubt that. You will do what everyone else does, get them in private and go for the confession and demand a punishment or threaten war. That is how alliances ensure their security. The sort of actions that make this a CB happen daily with most gov members and most alliances. People trade classified information FAR FAR FAR more valuable than a pointless screenshot daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choader Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 TPF was being a good ally during the negotiations. TPF is not the alliance which attacked OV prior to the ending of negotiations.I'm pretty sure you can log dump any kind of negotiations from any alliance where you could point out that someone was intimidating someone else. Recall that at this time, TWiP was posting screenshots from the tC government forums. Do you blame mhawk for wanting to see if he could crack that nut? The folly was not in the negotiation nor in mhawk/TPF's involvement in such, but the dishonorable way in which NPO and TORN distracted OV's government while they ran their blitz. You're right, TPF was not in the first wave of attack. Neither were a half dozen other alliances who were preparing for war a week or two in advance. Can you seriously claim that the alliance who packaged up a CB and brought NPO and TORN to the negotiation table is any less responsible for the mess they created? You can point to Valhalla and GGA getting off with near non-existent terms, but that's not a precedent that should have been set in the first place. Bringing down the hegemony doesn't begin and end with Pacifica, the guilt for so many past atrocities runs far beyond that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choader Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 There was no try, he confessed. The CB is valid, had it been any other alliance except NPO, very few would have disagreed with it. You do realize Blackstone is a spy ring do you not? Spying in general is frowned upon through out CN and has been the basis of several military engagements. TPF never ran a spy as you so blatantly claim and if you're going to make wild accusations like that, you better bring proof to back up your claim. It's one thing to ask a reasonable question, it is another to throw something out there just to fan the flames and further some two bit tin foil conspiracy. When something like this happens to FoB, will you offer the offender milk & cookies and sit them down for a nice one on one? I seriously doubt that. You will do what everyone else does, get them in private and go for the confession and demand a punishment or threaten war. That is how alliances ensure their security. If someone spent the effort of spying on FoB for warchest requirements, I'd just get a chuckle out of it. I certainly wouldn't be looking for ways to use it to roll their allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 There was no try, he confessed. The CB is valid, had it been any other alliance except NPO, very few would have disagreed with it. You do realize Blackstone is a spy ring do you not? Spying in general is frowned upon through out CN and has been the basis of several military engagements. TPF never ran a spy as you so blatantly claim and if you're going to make wild accusations like that, you better bring proof to back up your claim. It's one thing to ask a reasonable question, it is another to throw something out there just to fan the flames and further some two bit tin foil conspiracy. When something like this happens to FoB, will you offer the offender milk & cookies and sit them down for a nice one on one? I seriously doubt that. You will do what everyone else does, get them in private and go for the confession and demand a punishment or threaten war. That is how alliances ensure their security. Who was it again who said that every alliance accepts information? We never did quite hear where you got your information from by the way. As far as I can tell to get it you must have done the same thing OV did. Regarding the thread's topic: good luck to both parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebubu Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Good luck to our allies in TORN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Can you seriously claim that the alliance who packaged up a CB and brought NPO and TORN to the negotiation table is any less responsible for the mess they created? You can point to Valhalla and GGA getting off with near non-existent terms, but that's not a precedent that should have been set in the first place. Bringing down the hegemony doesn't begin and end with Pacifica, the guilt for so many past atrocities runs far beyond that. runs into some of the alliances fighting on Karma aswell don't you forget. I know this cancellation must of been hard for mhawk and TPF govt. Wish all the best of luck for TORN and TPF o/ mhawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 The CB is valid, had it been any other alliance except NPO, very few would have disagreed with it. So you agree that OV have a valid CB on the NPO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperator G4G Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Be my guest to enlighten us as to the truth concerning this matter. I'd re-read Kung Fu Geeks' posts, as they contain much the same as I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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