The Phoenix Federation Announcement

[BamaBuc]

Wait...you do know you are still in hippy mode right? I mean, your brothers and allies are out here, actually...you know...fighting. They don't seem to "give a damn" how much the war damages THEM. You sir seem like you DO care how much damage you take. You could be out sending Aid, fighting alongside your "brothers and allies".

I did fight you one round, I know you WERE out fighting, but not any more. To be honest you knocked my teeth out as well as a couple others I'm sure. I also managed a quick spy attempt on you and your War Chest was/is HUGE. What gives?

You rant seems to ring very hollow shouted behind the wings of a dove.

I went hippy for two reasons.

1) Rebuy nukes. I'm almost done with that.

2) I knew I was going to be away for a week with no Internet. That's done now.

-Bama

[BamaBuc]

Says the man who wasn't even in TPF until recently. You sir are the equivalent of a TOOL rogue, jumping to whichever alliance in which you could semi-legitimately continue this unrighteous war, and your attempt to speak for TPF is rather silly.

I know Mhawk has made a similar decision but he won't come in here ranting and raving like you are. The fact is that TPF has 'left a man behind' before, and while your decision to commit a long slow suicide alongside NPO is respectable, your argument is made significantly weaker by your ignorance of TPF's history, and your recent decision to abandon your alliance in order to throw some more meat into the grinder.

The fact is that TPF's continued presence at the front at this point is not going to help NPO get a quicker or easier peace, you have won a lot of respect for standing by them (although that is somewhat cancelled out by that lost due to pushing for the dodgy CB in the first place), and continuing to stay at war is simply putting your regrowth back by a day and a half for each day that you fight (since you are still taking damage). While I respect your (TPF's) decision, at this point I consider it to be a mistake.

Rogue? Not really. A rogue isn't in an alliance. I guess you got "rogue" from the fact that I left TOOL to fight... I guess I'm a "rogue" in that sense, as I'm not doing this on behalf of TOOL. But I'm in an alliance, fighting a war... So I don't see how that makes me a rogue. As for "continuing this illegitimate war"... It has nothing to do with that. I'm no fan of the CB that was used. But I still have friends fighting a losing battle, so here I am.

Haha, mhawk has a lot less of a temper than I do. As for UJW, that didn't even cross my mind when I made that post... It was so long ago and we were under very different leadership. But I confess that I should have said "the TPF of today" or something. As for TOOL, I didn't abandon them. I aided before I went, and we had plenty of aid to go around. If we'd had an aid shortage, I would have stuck around a while. Plus, the only thing I was ever any good at was FA, and TOOL has plenty of people who can handle that. TOOL is my home and I will return there when this is done, but I'll see this fight through.

From a sheerly pragmatistic standpoint, you are correct. But we made this call based on more than that. Plus, at this point, we've given our word to fight to the end. There's no going back.

-Bama

[George the Great]

A cancellation of a MADP instead of a downgrade? I remember when this one alliance was upset that we did that.

Best of luck to you both.

Edit: Bad Engrish.

Edited June 17, 2009 by George the Great

[Bob Janova]

TOOL is my home and I will return there when this is done, but I'll see this fight through.

So you're basically false-flagging to continue to fight?

[mhawk]

A cancellation instead of a MADP instead of a downgrade? I remember when this one alliance was upset that we did that.

Best of luck to you both.

I don't remember offering an mdoap to torn first....

[George the Great]

I don't remember offering an mdoap to torn first....

That was because we preliminarily told you what might happen a month or so before we even brought it up to our Senate. We never guaranteed a MDoAP. We said we'd cancel the MADP and probably downgrade to a MDoAP. Things changed in that time-span and when it was presented to our Senate, they voted to cancel it. Sorry for communicating too early in advance, I suppose.

[mhawk]

We never guaranteed a MDoAP. We said we'd cancel the MADP and probably downgrade to a MDoAP. Things changed in that time-span and when it was presented to our Senate, they voted to cancel it. Sorry for communicating too early in advance, I suppose.

01[22:08] <mhawk> ok so you're going around downgrading folks

[22:08] <Tulak_Hord> That's embarrassing

01[22:08] <mhawk> tht must be a fun job

[22:08] <Tulak_Hord> Just Brig atm

[22:08] <Tulak_Hord> Only you two as MADP partners

[22:08] <Tulak_Hord> but yeah, we'll write up a new MDoAP to sign asap if you like

[22:09] <Tulak_Hord> the madp is quite out of date anyway really, the text and !@#$

Whatever George. I'm glad you came here to rub some salt in, have fun at the top spitting at the bottom, the solemn pride that must be yours to rag and dow your former allies.

o/ Sparta.

[BamaBuc]

So you're basically false-flagging to continue to fight?

Good lord Bob, are you serious? In order to false-flag I would have to be in one alliance and be fighting for another. I am not a member of TOOL, I am a member of TPF. I am fighting for TPF. I refer to TOOL as my home because I was a member for so long and intend to return there. But I am not a TOOL member now. If I remained in TOOL while fighting, it would be false flagging... But that's not the case. So I'm not false-flagging. But by all means, ignore most of the post, take one part out of context, and make a ridiculous accusation.

-Bama

[HalfEmpty]

Mr. Janova, here at TPF we have a radically different idea of "fulfilling our honourable obligations" than you do. We fight for our comrades and our allies to the last man. We don't leave them to die when the war becomes a lost cause. Quite frankly sir, we don't !@#$@#$ give a damn about how much this war damages us. Our brothers and allies are out there. We know the war is lost. We know the game is up. We just don't care. We NEVER leave a man behind.

-Bama

Note to Maximum Bob.... BB was always TPF, he just didn't know it. After the current hen-peckery is over TPF will need to rebuilt quickly for the coming assault on TOOL which is an obvious Auburn Front as I am sure you, and anyone in the loop, knows.

[jer]

So you're basically false-flagging to continue to fight?

TOOL members weren't subject to movement restrictions in terms so I really do not see how one of their members joining another alliance to fight is any of your business.

[bbrownso]

TOOL members weren't subject to movement restrictions in terms so I really do not see how one of their members joining another alliance to fight is any of your business.

Did Bama leave before TOOL got peace or after TOOL got peace? I think it was the former but I could very well be wrong.

Anyways, he's a good guy and this attempt to smear his name is laughable. He's doing what he believes is right; taking a stand no matter what might happen. If only, others had the same fortitude (not a shot at TORN - I promise). If you've read my other posts, you could guess at what I mean.

[Bob Janova]

Legally? No. As you say, he has the legal right to do what he is doing (although he will get rolled for it like everyone else in TPF due to the state of war). Leaving an alliance that he still considers 'home', and to which he intends to return after finishing fighting, to continue a war that his 'home' alliance has left is pretty close to false flagging though – the only difference is that the alliance which he is flying the flag of is okay with his temporary membership. (Members of several Hegemony alliances are forbidden from moving to alliances at war, I believe, which clearly shows that many alliances consider it a low class move.) Are TOOL happy with what you're doing, and to re-accept you after choosing to continue a fight that they have decided is not worthwhile?

And when you come into a thread in full self-righteous White Knight of TPF mode when you still consider TOOL to be your home, then someone's going to call you out on how ridiculous that looks. It might as well be me.

[BamaBuc]

Legally? No. As you say, he has the legal right to do what he is doing (although he will get rolled for it like everyone else in TPF due to the state of war). Leaving an alliance that he still considers 'home', and to which he intends to return after finishing fighting, to continue a war that his 'home' alliance has left is pretty close to false flagging though – the only difference is that the alliance which he is flying the flag of is okay with his temporary membership. (Members of several Hegemony alliances are forbidden from moving to alliances at war, I believe, which clearly shows that many alliances consider it a low class move.) Are TOOL happy with what you're doing, and to re-accept you after choosing to continue a fight that they have decided is not worthwhile?

And when you come into a thread in full self-righteous White Knight of TPF mode when you still consider TOOL to be your home, then someone's going to call you out on how ridiculous that looks. It might as well be me.

False-flagging, as I understand it, means fighting for one alliance while remaining a member of another. You can't "kind of" false-flag. Either you're still a member of the alliance you apparently left, or you're not. And I'm not. I cannot view TOOL's private forums or IRC. They do not consider me to be a member. I think you misunderstand those surrender clauses... They prevent false-flagging, or switching AAs to fight while remaining a member of another alliance. They do not prohibit people from leaving and joining another alliance. I was confused by those terms myself, and that's how it was explained to me. After all, it would be a little ridiculous to hold alliances accountable for the actions of members AFTER they leave the alliance. As for TOOL, everyone I've talked to there (both the night I left and since then) respects what I'm doing and wants me to come back afterwards.

While TPF is only my temporary (though indefinite) place of residence, I'm extremely proud of everything our leaders and members have done in this war, taking a brave but futile stand for our friends and each other. Am I not allowed to have that pride?

Just to clarify, I left TOOL after we surrendered.

-Bama

[Matthew Conrad]

Also, I need to find a stapler to put my head back on. It spun clean off trying to follow this topic.

In a single thread we've been insulted for leaving war too early and staying in war too long.

Not really, it's more like people proving Bama wrong because he said you guys never leave an ally behind. I don't really care either way in the semantics of the argument, but he is indeed incorrect about that particular part.

[Roadie]

Not really, it's more like people proving Bama wrong because he said you guys never leave an ally behind. I don't really care either way in the semantics of the argument, but he is indeed incorrect about that particular part.

Actually, it's nothing at all like that. I like you, but you're comparing apples and stop signs there.

As far as Bamas statement goes, I think that's been sufficiently covered for all but the least willing to understand.

To add my own opinion on him being supposedly proven wrong. You're wrong about that also, technically. We would have to pretend that he said have never, not never. I could be bias, but I read that as a forward-looking statement as I don't live in the distant past, constantly promoting the concept that the fossil record is an accurate record of both the here and now and the future.

Edit: But I understand what a person means and how they word it are sometimes not one in the same. If we went solely by what a person means, it would ruin a whole lotta games of Gotcha!, and that would just make things boring.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Roadie

[Matthew Conrad]

Whatever George. I'm glad you came here to rub some salt in, have fun at the top spitting at the bottom, the solemn pride that must be yours to rag and dow your former allies.

o/ Sparta.

Yep, we declared on NPO. Yep, we were wrong for not letting them roll over our other allies in SF. Sorry.

[jer]

Leaving an alliance that he still considers 'home', and to which he intends to return after finishing fighting, to continue a war that his 'home' alliance has left is pretty close to false flagging though – the only difference is that the alliance which he is flying the flag of is okay with his temporary membership.

It is entirely possible that Bama's first loyalty is with TOOL, but that he also feels some affinity with TPF. Once he knew TOOL was out of the firing line he went to help TPF, moving alliance legitimately as is his right to do so. Is there anything wrong with that? My problem with these false-flagging accusations is that you seem to be insinuating that Bama is somehow continuing TOOL's fight and not fighting for TPF without any evidence to back it up.

(Members of several Hegemony alliances are forbidden from moving to alliances at war, I believe, which clearly shows that many alliances consider it a low class move.) Are TOOL happy with what you're doing, and to re-accept you after choosing to continue a fight that they have decided is not worthwhile?

Considering it low class? I doubt it. Any alliance forbidding the movement of opposition alliance members in surrender terms does so with one thing in mind only: to prevent any further loss of infrastructure from that group of nations. It has nothing to do with class.

And when you come into a thread in full self-righteous White Knight of TPF mode when you still consider TOOL to be your home, then someone's going to call you out on how ridiculous that looks. It might as well be me.

You did that, and then some. I have no problem with calling him out about that and I agree that it is rather silly to post grandiose statements on behalf of TPF when you've only been a member for five minutes. But... there is no need to try and brand him as some sort of war-criminal for simply moving alliances to help his friends out in a war.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Matthew Conrad]

Actually, it's nothing at all like that. I like you, but you're comparing apples and stop signs there.

As far as Bamas statement goes, I think that's been sufficiently covered for all but the least willing to understand.

To add my own opinion on him being supposedly proven wrong. You're wrong about that also, technically. We would have to pretend that he said have never, not never. I could be bias, but I read that as a forward-looking statement as I don't live in the distant past, constantly promoting the concept that the fossil record is an accurate record of both the here and now and the future.

Edit: But I understand what a person means and how they word it are sometimes not one in the same. And if we went solely by what a person means, it ruin a whole lotta games of Gotcha!, and that would just make things boring.

Well, it's up to him to clarify then. I guess we both read it differently and we can't really argue on something that we both don't agree on the meaning of.

[Bob Janova]

Considering it low class? I doubt it.

Individual nations who surrender and then rejoin the war are thought to be so low class it's one of the few ways to get a ZI without anyone complaining about it being unjustified. I think it's likely that some of the same sentiment goes with nations who go through an alliance surrender and then rejoin the war.

[BamaBuc]

Individual nations who surrender and then rejoin the war are thought to be so low class it's one of the few ways to get a ZI without anyone complaining about it being unjustified. I think it's likely that some of the same sentiment goes with nations who go through an alliance surrender and then rejoin the war.

You're saying that leaving your alliance and fighting on after your alliance quits is the same as faking an individual surrender?

-Bama

EDIT: Aimee, I've been in TPF for almost 50 days, not 5 minutes.

Edited June 17, 2009 by BamaBuc

[jer]

If that is the case then why are such terms as the ones given to hegemony alliances included at all? Surely if leaving a surrendered alliance to fight for another one still at war was ZI worthy no-one would even consider it, and there would be no need for these clauses? But they are included, so I don't think this 'crime' is as well established as you are making out.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Roadie]

Individual nations who surrender and then rejoin the war are thought to be so low class it's one of the few ways to get a ZI without anyone complaining about it being unjustified. I think it's likely that some of the same sentiment goes with nations who go through an alliance surrender and then rejoin the war.

Well, Since TOOL was okay with it, TPF was okay with, the alliances that signed TOOLS terms were okay with it and the alliances he's now fighting didn't raise a stink about it, we figured it would be okay. But, we realize we made the mistake of not consulting Gramlins on the issue. Now that we know Maximums Bobs feeling on the matter, we'll be reconsidering and will get back to you on what we decide.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Roadie

[Bob Janova]

I did not say that it's the same – one is ZI worthy and one is not. But the presence of terms that restrict such actions imply that it is looked down upon to some degree, if not the same level as rejoining after an individual surrender.

[Roadie]

We've reconsidered and decided he's staying as long as he wants. All those out of the war are free to look down at him, however.

[Chet Ubet]

Yep, we declared on NPO. Yep, we were wrong for not letting them roll over our other allies in SF. Sorry.

I really don't know what that had to do with what mhwak said but what is funny is how you declared war on your former ally(couple days before you declared war) using an oA clause like it was nothing and then act like you guys are doing the rigt thing.Next your "allies in SF" eh,tell me how the NPO were going to roll over your allies when SF attacked them with a billion other alliances