Fort Pitt Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) This is pretty rich coming from a Spartan. I'm not a Spartan, I'm a Templar (Dark Templar to be exact). I use the Spartan tag on the forums because they are the biggest black alliance. You may wanna look at his alliance name and not the tag he's using. Take note NPO, RoK'ers really do have brains after all, I guess all that propaganda got to your heads. Edited June 14, 2009 by Fort Pitt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) You uhh might wanna reconsider that one. I don't see why. You could add up all the reps we have ever demanded of anyone, including all the conditions (though some of course go against the ToS nowadays) and it would still be less than what is being demanded of us. Or you could take one of the sets of terms you consider to be the worst thing ever, and scale it up so it matches our size, and again it would be less than what is being demanded of us. And apologies then, my point still stands Ford Pitt of Dark Templar, what gives you the right to say anything about our terms? Why so many people use the alliance badge of an alliance not their own just confuses everyone. Edited June 14, 2009 by James Dahl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neneko Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 You could add up all the reps we have ever demanded of anyone, including all the conditions (though some of course go against the ToS nowadays) and it would still be less than what is being demanded of us. You're obviously a party liner but..wow.. NPO is good at their propaganda to their members I'll give them that Or you could take one of the sets of terms you consider to be the worst thing ever, and scale it up so it matches our size, and again it would be less than what is being demanded of us. MK paid 100k tech with roughly 80 members. NPO have roughly 800 members. There's some advanced calculations involved here but scaled up to NPOs size that would be 1m tech wich I'm fairly sure is more than 300k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) All I can say is, Treaty of Versailles vs. the end of WWII. In WWI, many of the agrieved countries heavily pushed for not only damages, but punitive reps as put forth here. History proves how well that worked out. Then at the end of WWII, rather than punishing Germany or Japan, America involved themselves in the rebuilding efforts. History proves how well that worked out too. Good sir, I don't recall any treaties being called "Treaty of Versailles", nor do I recall the nations of Germany, Japan, or America being involved in any major wars with each other. The correct nomenclature for what you call "WWII" is "GW2". Though I do recall this confusing and nonsensical argument being brought up repeatedly throughout history. This fantasy war, so many of you reference to prove your points, would make a good analogy I suppose, if the history of this world (Planet Bob) had not shown it to be false over and over again. The fact is, lenient terms were given to the NPO long ago at the end of GW1, and "history proves how well that worked out." Indeed, punitive terms had been a means by which the NPO had successfully kept itself in power for 3 solid years. edit: grammarz Edited June 14, 2009 by Sal Paradise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 You're obviously a party liner but..wow.. NPO is good at their propaganda to their members I'll give them thatMK paid 100k tech with roughly 80 members. NPO have roughly 800 members. There's some advanced calculations involved here but scaled up to NPOs size that would be 1m tech wich I'm fairly sure is more than 300k. You are, as usual, completely wrong. NPO has 724 nations today. MK had about 150 nations at the time. This is about 5 times the size of MK at the time. MK paid about 80k to NPO This would be 400k tech. NPO is being asked to pay 300k tech and 7 billion dollars. This is largely equivalent in terms of reparations. However NPO has strict limitations on who can pay, plus we won't even be eligable for the reparations payments until AFTER 2 weeks of war after the point at which 90% of our nations are out of peace mode. It should be noted than that these terms are much, much worse than the MK terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neneko Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 You are, as usual, completely wrong.NPO has 724 nations today. MK had about 150 nations at the time. This is about 5 times the size of MK at the time. MK paid about 80k to NPO This would be 400k tech. NPO is being asked to pay 300k tech and 7 billion dollars. This is largely equivalent in terms of reparations. However NPO has strict limitations on who can pay, plus we won't even be eligable for the reparations payments until AFTER 2 weeks of war after the point at which 90% of our nations are out of peace mode. It should be noted than that these terms are much, much worse than the MK terms. Now you're just making up numbers on MK. I admit I was wrong with your member count. You lose members faster than I can keep up. As you said even with your imaginary numbers the reps are roughly equivivalent but the NPO ones have a few other terms there (and MK had a bunch that NPO didn't get for that matter). Hey guess what, MK wasn't the only alliance you did this to. Given how many times you've done this I'd say the terms you got are way too lenient and I'm glad you didn't accept them. As a side note. After all I heard about NPOs amazing banking system I have to say that it's fairly amusing to see how litle faith you have in it when it'd actually have to be put to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Peace and prosperity is our game brother. Pacifica brought about eras of peace. I do hope my sarcasm sensors are just failing me because I don't know anyone who can say that without laughing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) Now you're just making up numbers on MK. I admit I was wrong with your member count. You lose members faster than I can keep up.As you said even with your imaginary numbers the reps are roughly equivivalent but the NPO ones have a few other terms there (and MK had a bunch that NPO didn't get for that matter). Hey guess what, MK wasn't the only alliance you did this to. Given how many times you've done this I'd say the terms you got are way too lenient and I'm glad you didn't accept them. As a side note. After all I heard about NPOs amazing banking system I have to say that it's fairly amusing to see how litle faith you have in it when it'd actually have to be put to use. As I said before, if we were to simply return all the reps we have ever paid (ie restitution) it would be less than is being demanded of us right now. If the issue is simply revenge (suffer as you have suffered) these terms still go too far. Your petty taunting degrades only yourself and your own alliance, but I suppose that doesn't bother you. Edited June 14, 2009 by James Dahl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 "Could you please define 'harsh' for those of us who might have missed it?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykep Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 You should be harshererer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilien Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 They're getting off easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpreb Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) MK paid about 80k to NPO MK paid 100k tech I'm sorry to nitpick here, but could we please use the amount given in the actual MK surrender. III.A. MK will pay NPO 58,000 tech to compensate for the losses incurred by the NPO throughout this conflict as the result of the nuclear first strike unleashed by MK. These payments will be made on a regular basis, overseen by officers of the Pacific Bank. If less than 3,000 tech is sent to the NPO in any given week, MK will be considered in violation of these terms. B. MK will pay VE 12,000 tech to compensate for the losses incurred by VE throughout this conflict as the result of the nuclear first strike unleashed by MK. These payments will be made on a regular basis, overseen by officers of the Pacific Bank. C. MK will pay ML 200 million dollars and 2,000 tech to compensate for the losses incurred by ML throughout this conflict as the result of the nuclear first strike unleashed by MK. These payments will be made on a regular basis, overseen by officers of the Pacific Bank. C. MK will pay Echelon 10,000 tech to compensate for the losses incurred by Echelon throughout this conflict as the result of the nuclear first strike unleashed by MK. These payments will be made on a regular basis, overseen by officers of the Pacific Bank. Mushroom Kingdom paid 58k tech to NPO Mushroom Kingdom paid a total of 82k tech and 200 million to the alliances it surrendered to (NPO, VE, Molon Labe and Echelon). Unless these terms were changed (I don't recall but I didn't follow that event particularly closely) I see no reason reason to distort the facts. For the topic on hand. Whether the terms are harsh enough seems irrelevant. For the surrender terms and admitted defeat to be meaningful, NPO needs to be largely forgiven for the crimes they are paying for and I don't think that the current term nor any future terms will accomplish that. I honestly believe that even if they pay the price, and then get into another losing war in the future, they will pay for it again. Notice: This really doesn't represent TOP by any way. Edited June 15, 2009 by alpreb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Its easy to sit back and blame their troubles on the Pacific. They started it. NAAC chose their own disbandment. ODN is still kicking. Its foolish to try to lay all of histories troubles in Pacifica's lap. You started a lot of things you are being punished for too. "You started it!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pericles8th Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 You started a lot of things you are being punished for too."You started it!" Touche' If the NPO doesn't get at least what they dished out then drop the term "karma" from the alliance and call it the "Cowards Kingdom" or something like that. Because if NPO gets off easy it will come after each alliance one by one and believe me if you think that a war time alliance like Karma will ever form again to defeat them then you haven't read your history... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neneko Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Your petty taunting degrades only yourself and your own alliance, but I suppose that doesn't bother you. Yet again you need to check wich alliances are on wich front. You seem to have some difficulties with alliances. That aside I don't speak for my alliance just as you don't speak for NPO now or when you broke the gag order in rage a week ago. I'm sorry to nitpick here, but could be please use the amount given in the actual MK surrender.Mushroom Kingdom paid 58k tech to NPO Mushroom Kingdom paid a total of 82k tech and 200 million to the alliances it surrendered to (NPO, VE, Molon Labe and Echelon). Unless these terms where changed (I don't recall but I didn't follow that event particularly closely) I see no reason reason to distort the facts. For the topic on hand. Whether the terms are harsh enough seems irrelevant. For the surrender terms and admitted defeat to be meaningful, NPO needs to be largely forgiven for the crimes they are paying for and I don't think that the current term nor any future terms will accomplish that. I honestly believe that even if they pay the price, and then get into another losing war in the future, they will pay for it again. Notice: This really doesn't represent TOP by any way. Make sure you understand the posts and context before you reply next time. If we're going to convert NPOs reps paid in cash into tech I think it's fair to do the same with the MK reps. As for MK 'only' paying 58k tech to NPO. Please tell me wich single alliance demanded 300k tech from NPO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 I don't see why.You could add up all the reps we have ever demanded of anyone, including all the conditions (though some of course go against the ToS nowadays) and it would still be less than what is being demanded of us. Or you could take one of the sets of terms you consider to be the worst thing ever, and scale it up so it matches our size, and again it would be less than what is being demanded of us. And apologies then, my point still stands Ford Pitt of Dark Templar, what gives you the right to say anything about our terms? Why so many people use the alliance badge of an alliance not their own just confuses everyone. Uhh... Well since you seem to have missed well... the last three years of CN, lets add in the rest of the terms. (assuming we were going for as you stated everything the NPO has ever dished out, or had a hand in dishing out) NPO will decom all wonders. NPO will have a viceroy installed. NPO's charter will be rewritten to the satisfaction of at least half of the alliances now fighting them. NPO's government officials will be expelled and PZI'd. NPO's will decom all but 30 nukes... well let you know when you can have them back. NPO will send a monthly tribute for an indeterminate amount of time. NPO's propaganda people will work for us for a while. NPO will move to the pink team. NPO will move to an offsite and IRC channel of our choice so we can take over your communications channels without violating the ToS. After that, at some point we'll decide you aren't abiding by the terms on a technicality and then jump you again in a surprise attack after you've been demilitarized. I might have missed a few terms, anybody who remembers something else feel free to chip in. Finally, holy !@#$, I don't like you and even I those terms would be !@#$@#$ ridiculous, be VERY VERY glad karma didn't just total up everything the NPO has ever done and feed it back to you, it'd be !@#$@#$ horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Tolkien Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Uhh... Well since you seem to have missed well... the last three years of CN, lets add in the rest of the terms. (assuming we were going for as you stated everything the NPO has ever dished out, or had a hand in dishing out)NPO will decom all wonders. NPO will have a viceroy installed. NPO's charter will be rewritten to the satisfaction of at least half of the alliances now fighting them. NPO's government officials will be expelled and PZI'd. NPO's will decom all but 30 nukes... well let you know when you can have them back. NPO will send a monthly tribute for an indeterminate amount of time. NPO's propaganda people will work for us for a while. NPO will move to the pink team. NPO will move to an offsite and IRC channel of our choice so we can take over your communications channels without violating the ToS. After that, at some point we'll decide you aren't abiding by the terms on a technicality and then jump you again in a surprise attack after you've been demilitarized. I might have missed a few terms, anybody who remembers something else feel free to chip in. Finally, holy !@#$, I don't like you and even I those terms would be !@#$@#$ ridiculous, be VERY VERY glad karma didn't just total up everything the NPO has ever done and feed it back to you, it'd be !@#$@#$ horrible. You've also missed decomming military to the point of self-anarchy and the decomm of all factories. Also, all NPO peace mode nations must leave PM and face war within four days or face PZI. Edited June 15, 2009 by Tolkien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 You've also missed decomming military to the point of self-anarchy and the decomm of all factories.Also, all NPO peace mode nations must leave PM and face war within four days or face PZI. Knew I'd miss a few, there were just so many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Tolkien Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Actually, I missed something too. If you have more soldiers then the 20% as stipulated by the terms (self-anarchy), the NPO shall be declared upon, no matter how few nations or how small the infractions are. EDIT: Also missed the no-first-strike-nuking clause. And expulsion of non-government members. And installation of a puppet ruler. Edited June 15, 2009 by Tolkien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 I believe the 1000 tech rule was put in there to insure NPO actually paid on hand tech as opposed to tapping the 500 or so near ZI nations they have for tech farming duty (buy to 50 from zero and send) which would have then made the tech portion of the term far easier to meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 And oaths of allegiance to Ivan Moldavi. Can't forget that. Not that harsh, but flavourful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpreb Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 Make sure you understand the posts and context before you reply next time. If we're going to convert NPOs reps paid in cash into tech I think it's fair to do the same with the MK reps. 1. Even if we put 200 million marks into a 3 million to 150 tech ratio, generally accepted as the cheapest price for tech, we end up with 200 million = 10k tech. So with a conversion it is 92k tech paid to all four alliances by MK for that surrender which is 8k tech less than what you said. I see no good reason for adding some 8-9% on the amount they actually paid. James Dahl is equally faulty since he puts the amount that MK paid to NPO at 80k tech which is 22k tech more than the actual number. If you want consistency with this model, then NPO must pay 650k tech (300k tech + (7000 million = 350k tech) = 650k tech) in reparations to end the current conflict with the multitude of alliances it is currently fighting. The number of nations residing in the Mushroom Kingdom alliance affiliation at surrender (August 26th/27th 2008) was a bit over 190. These numbers are a courtesy of Unspeakable Evil ( UE) 2008-08-24 | Mushroom Kingdom | 203 | 2008-08-24 | Mushroom Kingdom | 203 | 2008-08-24 | Mushroom Kingdom | 202 | 2008-08-25 | Mushroom Kingdom | 201 | 2008-08-25 | Mushroom Kingdom | 198 | 2008-08-26 | Mushroom Kingdom | 197 | 2008-08-26 | Mushroom Kingdom | 196 | 2008-08-27 | Mushroom Kingdom | 197 | 2008-08-27 | Mushroom Kingdom | 197 | 2008-08-28 | Mushroom Kingdom | 195 | 2008-08-28 | Mushroom Kingdom | 197 | 2008-08-29 | Mushroom Kingdom | 193 | 2008-08-29 | Mushroom Kingdom | 193 | 2008-08-30 | Mushroom Kingdom | 192 | 2008-08-30 | Mushroom Kingdom | 192 | 2008-08-30 | Mushroom Kingdom | 192 | 2008-08-31 | Mushroom Kingdom | 192 | 2008-08-31 | Mushroom Kingdom | 192 | 2008-09-01 | Mushroom Kingdom | 189 | 2008-09-01 | Mushroom Kingdom | 188 | As for MK 'only' paying 58k tech to NPO. Please tell me wich single alliance demanded 300k tech from NPO. 2. Errr, what? Where did I say 'only' 58k tech? The terms are pretty specific with 58.000 tech paid by MK to NPO. It is a fact, nothing more, nothing less. Whether that amount is a lot or not, I haven't commented on and I don't like you putting words in my mouth. I also do not know which alliance asked NPO for 300k tech. The question confuses me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Also forgot another one: NPO will cancel all military treaties and may not sign any indefinitely, until the alliances decide to lift this term. Edited June 15, 2009 by Mixoux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurion Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 NPO's propaganda people will work for us for a while. Do not want. If what we're getting now is their best, do not want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 Do not want.If what we're getting now is their best, do not want. Actually now that I think of it, it was just their graphics people have to make us some pretty stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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