Are We Harsh?

[auto98]

Vote with your feet, as a member of your alliance you are responsible for its crimes. You're all exactly the same as you were. Don't pretend to have changed.

Unless of course you suddenly jump to the other side, then all your "crimes" are forgiven.

[Glen MoP]

You know, if Karma really wants to "just" hit 54 of the top 60 NPO nations for two weeks, this could be pretty easily accomplished in a way that avoids "unending war".

Change the terms to allow nations to come out twenty at a time, with a smaller number coming out the first week. 14 fight for two weeks. At the end of two weeks they go back into peace mode. If Karma does NOT let them all go back into peace mode, then this also counts as the next 20. If the 14 do make it back into peace mode, the next 20 come out for two weeks of war. If Karma does NOT let them all go back into peace mode, then this also counts as the next 20. If the 20 do make it back into peace mode, the next 20 come out for two weeks of war. Two weeks later, all wars are peaced out and the war is over.

You could tweak those numbers to break it down into whatever sized packet you want and adjust the interval as well. Do 9 every week, 18 every two weeks, one every other day, or whatever. You'd probably want to provide leeway for the last batch coming out, since getting the last critical person out of peace mode may be a real hassle when it turns out he went on vacation that week.

It's not that hard to track 54 nations. Doing it piecemeal would help allay a lot of the NPO concerns that the Karma members who keep saying "disband the NPO! eternal war!" will not be the ones Karma government listens to.

[TypoNinja]

You know, if Karma really wants to "just" hit 54 of the top 60 NPO nations for two weeks, this could be pretty easily accomplished in a way that avoids "unending war".

Change the terms to allow nations to come out twenty at a time, with a smaller number coming out the first week. 14 fight for two weeks. At the end of two weeks they go back into peace mode. If Karma does NOT let them all go back into peace mode, then this also counts as the next 20. If the 14 do make it back into peace mode, the next 20 come out for two weeks of war. If Karma does NOT let them all go back into peace mode, then this also counts as the next 20. If the 20 do make it back into peace mode, the next 20 come out for two weeks of war. Two weeks later, all wars are peaced out and the war is over.

You could tweak those numbers to break it down into whatever sized packet you want and adjust the interval as well. Do 9 every week, 18 every two weeks, one every other day, or whatever. You'd probably want to provide leeway for the last batch coming out, since getting the last critical person out of peace mode may be a real hassle when it turns out he went on vacation that week.

It's not that hard to track 54 nations. Doing it piecemeal would help allay a lot of the NPO concerns that the Karma members who keep saying "disband the NPO! eternal war!" will not be the ones Karma government listens to.

Read back, theres a quote from Sparta about changed terms already addressing this. the broke down the two weeks to nation by nation instead of all at once, so even if it does take 20 days to get it all done (lets face it after twenty days they are either disobeying orders or getting deleted for idleing.) it removes the chance of open ended war on the banks.

[Glen MoP]

Read back, theres a quote from Sparta about changed terms already addressing this. the broke down the two weeks to nation by nation instead of all at once, so even if it does take 20 days to get it all done (lets face it after twenty days they are either disobeying orders or getting deleted for idleing.) it removes the chance of open ended war on the banks.

Are those official Karma terms or just the commentary of Sparta?

Edited June 29, 2009 by Glen MoP

[TypoNinja]

Are those official Karma terms or just the commentary of Sparta?

In light of two facts;

1. Karma said it would negotiate as a coalition

and

2. It was sparta gov posting that.

The answer is fairly obvious.

[Glen MoP]

In light of two facts;

1. Karma said it would negotiate as a coalition

and

2. It was sparta gov posting that.

The answer is fairly obvious.

It may be obvious from the inside, but I think it's been fairly well established that to the people outside the leadership of Karma the whole thing is a murky and impenetrable mess. It's hard to tell when someone is posting an "opinion", a "way things are", a "way things could be", and whether that represents a Karma consensus, an individual opinion, an alliance opinion, or some other nebulous construct.

What makes it especially confusing is when some alliance leaders say "we could do something different" and other people say, "Only Karma, which is not an official entity and has no actual authority over alliances that are not actually members but are represented by Karma, can offer terms and these are the terms, period, and individual alliances are only offering opinions."

In short, no, it's not obvious at all. I would not be surprised if it was not obvious even to Karma alliance government officials.

[TypoNinja]

It may be obvious from the inside, but I think it's been fairly well established that to the people outside the leadership of Karma the whole thing is a murky and impenetrable mess. It's hard to tell when someone is posting an "opinion", a "way things are", a "way things could be", and whether that represents a Karma consensus, an individual opinion, an alliance opinion, or some other nebulous construct.

What makes it especially confusing is when some alliance leaders say "we could do something different" and other people say, "Only Karma, which is not an official entity and has no actual authority over alliances that are not actually members but are represented by Karma, can offer terms and these are the terms, period, and individual alliances are only offering opinions."

In short, no, it's not obvious at all. I would not be surprised if it was not obvious even to Karma alliance government officials.

If you haven't been paying attention perhaps.

[Haflinger]

When your arguments involve things like being nuked three times a day people are, unfortunately, inclined not to change their positions based on them.

When you bring up something that Cortath never once said in replying to Cortath, you give credence to the claim that you're not interested in peace.

If you haven't been paying attention perhaps.

Considering that I've been criticized for taking Revanche's remarks as representing the Karma coalition position, I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to wonder whether statements made by leaders of alliances at war with NPO actually represent the coalition position or not.

[Tromp]

When you bring up something that Cortath never once said in replying to Cortath, you give credence to the claim that you're not interested in peace.

Really?

Do you have access to the logs? I think not.

And yes, it is what Cortath said, so noFish is correct.

[Haflinger]

Really?

Do you have access to the logs? I think not.

And yes, it is what Cortath said, so noFish is correct.

I have access to Cortath's analysis, where he specifically states that he estimates 13 nukes per nation over the 14-day period.

Actually, everyone does. He posted it on these forums, only to be ignored by your people, who continued to repeat the 3-nukes-per-day canard.

[TypoNinja]

I have access to Cortath's analysis, where he specifically states that he estimates 13 nukes per nation over the 14-day period.

Actually, everyone does. He posted it on these forums, only to be ignored by your people, who continued to repeat the 3-nukes-per-day canard.

The first set of numbers from the NPO did include getting three nukes a day, they were quickly correted by someone else, but someone did indeed try to put it forward at one point.

The biggest problem with NPO's numbers is that they assume 6 successful ground attacks a day on each nation. Well lets be honest, only the heir to the Throne of Idiots would expose him self to that. Turtling is a successful tacit for a reason. Also if you were prepared to spend the cash on it you could probably keep three peoples air forces at bay and stop most of the air damage as well. If you have the AADN and/or the FAFB it becomes even easier. CM damage has always been trivial, and become a joke when you add missile defence improvements.

Nukes are the only real damage to be worried about, and one lucky streak with an SDI could end up sparing you a day or so. I've seen people burn though as many as 9 nukes before one finally got through.

[Haflinger]

The first set of numbers from the NPO did include getting three nukes a day, they were quickly correted by someone else, but someone did indeed try to put it forward at one point.

The biggest problem with NPO's numbers is that they assume 6 successful ground attacks a day on each nation. Well lets be honest, only the heir to the Throne of Idiots would expose him self to that. Turtling is a successful tacit for a reason. Also if you were prepared to spend the cash on it you could probably keep three peoples air forces at bay and stop most of the air damage as well. If you have the AADN and/or the FAFB it becomes even easier. CM damage has always been trivial, and become a joke when you add missile defence improvements.

Nukes are the only real damage to be worried about, and one lucky streak with an SDI could end up sparing you a day or so. I've seen people burn though as many as 9 nukes before one finally got through.

It's quite statistically unlikely for a nation engaged in a 3-on-1 or 4-on-1 with nations with 20 or 25 nukes in their stockpiles, who are capable of each buying 1 or 2 nukes a day, to avoid being nuked at any time during the 7 days of war (except the first 25 hours of course).

Assuming no WRCs, and only 3 nuclear nations, that's still a potential firing of 78 nukes over 6 days. It would be quite a feat for an SDI to stop that, even for one day.

Turtling defeats the reason why the NPO might want to come out anyway: They want to fight and do damage. If all they're doing is taking defeat alerts, nuclear attacks, bombing attacks, and CMs, then they might as well just pay reps instead. That's just paying reps in a different way.

[Tromp]

I have access to Cortath's analysis, where he specifically states that he estimates 13 nukes per nation over the 14-day period.

Actually, everyone does. He posted it on these forums, only to be ignored by your people, who continued to repeat the 3-nukes-per-day canard.

I won't go into the details of their calculations, that was done by lots of people as well as our negotiatiors at the time.

But it is funny you say that, because NPO had agreed to take the 14 days of war per nation, so that argument is irrelevant.

The only thing that kept us all from peace was the timetable for the 14 day of war clause (so in what time they were required to have an % of nations from peace to war mode). And we had even made assurances that nations that were nation sat could be given exemptions.

Seriously, it's not that we are unwilling to work with them.

[Delta1212]

People need to learn how to fight and turtle at the same time. Admittedly, it's more complicated with the semi-recent update, but still. It doesn't take that much effort to figure out how to do properly.

[wickedj]

for those that missed the news Ragnarok is now the new head of KARMA and yes we are planning to re-name NPO, OTTO (Old Trashed Techless Order) this will be brought up in a 117+ page thread next week.

Will the national transportation of OTTO be school buses? and where do you plan to find that many Walkmens that still work

[Big Z]

Turtling defeats the reason why the NPO might want to come out anyway: They want to fight and do damage.

Turtling =/= not fighting. Not by far.

[Systemfailure]

Will the national transportation of OTTO be school buses? and where do you plan to find that many Walkmens that still work

we will find a way...we must

o/ Anti-Skip

[Mongrel]

I resent this "New head of Karma" Claim, I'd have always liked to think we were more like a nun slapping the bad kids knuckles with a yard-stick. No Karma here, just plain old morality.