Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Tygaland]

Fixed, my reading of the history from the time period was a bit off.

Heh, they joined the CoaLUEtion after I was Viceroy too, do I get the credit for that?

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

Well, Fark was a puppet alliance of LUE led by theblitz. Trust me on this. I'm pretty sure that played a part. Also, Fark wasn't treatied to LUE in any way so the "help" was somewhat extraordinary. LUE jumped in to protect its puppet and paid the price. (This is not to imply that Fark is not an upstanding alliance nowadays).

And what about TF! ? Just curious about what you're talking about.

We aren't in the Mirror Universe, you can drop the act.

[Sarai]

It's sad isn't it, the NPO demanding different treatment from us just because we aren't real

I did not say that. Some people here would like to read in between my words which as a non-English speaker are always not the most well crafted. I have said that as a large alliance we have a strong community, I have not said smaller alliances do not. I have said that we have advantages in that large community, I then in the next sentence said your alliance also has its own advantage.

With regards to "real people", I mean that 500 REAL people <OOC>Behind a screen</OOC> are members of the NPO and as such that matters to me as it would matter your xxx number to your own alliance. These 500 people should have a chance to continue in the alliance they have chosen and not be forced by your actions to disband.

These selective quotes used in order to make NPO, "look bad" are the kinds of tricks that I thought were meant to be banished in the past in order to have a fairer game future. With particular regard to your viceroy comment, I take offence at you leaving out my very next sentence which said that "However I would understand that in the current environment losing control is akin to disbanding for a preset period of time and I would generally be against them"

Using my words that are meant only to talk in a fair way about a few things I feel strongly about is counter-productive and goes against the spirit of trying to achieve some understanding. With my very first post stating "two wrongs don't make a right" I am clearly stating my moral position.

I think the main issue is you write off the communities in other alliances that your alliance has trashed as insignificant while trumpeting the glorious and invaluable community of the NPO. It does reek of arrogance and an utter disregard for any alliance other than your own.

I believe I have integrity in my position and am not denigrating other alliances here. If you find me uncourteous then I apologise, but you would probably find it not the case if you didn't quote selected words and looked at the meaning and depths of feelings behind a whole post. I never said, nor intoned that the Community in other alliances is bad, but I don't speak for them I speak as a Body Republic member of the NPO and I think our community is important to protect, even though our <ooc>pixels</ooc> are lost.

I believe strongly in our community as you likely do in yours. The difference is while I accept that we have lost a war, lost a number of tags and spots and prestige that will have a long term effect on us and in addition we have to pay reparations on a scale, that even with inflation is huge, I do not accept that further additional terms designed to keep the NPO down for years is right as their primary purpose appears to be, or at least will have the effect of killing a community. A thing that to me, is precious.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Sarai

[Ellis]

OOC: I'll remember to link this thread to the IRS when I don't pay taxes.

You also have conclusive proof for the future that we at Pacifica are insane.

We lost a war to people that don't exist

Note: In no way am I suggesting that Sarai said smaller communities don't exist, not everyone here has English as a first language.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Ellis

[Rush Sykes]

Ellis,

Lets try and keep the off-relevance messages down a bit. I'm sure we can leave that to some of our friends on the other side of the fence.

Krack,

I don't think you know the general feeling of the Body Republic, so I doubt you have anything to add by saying what the NPO believes or doesn't believe. The terms do not allow the alliance to continue to function as an alliance of people and friends having a fun time. I note that some arguments exist that we stopped others from being alliances, two wrongs doesn't make a right and indeed sadly Pacifica is larger and has a bigger community and function than these smaller alliances. You can try and apply abusive terms as KARMA and we can reject them because they are a danger to what makes Pacifica deep down great, it's people.

As long as your terms don't hurt the people I am sure they will be accepted.

I believe the bolded part is one of the instances Tyga is referring to. I believe this, because when I read it, I felt much the same way he did. It appears in the bolded part, that you are saying that Pacifica is a more important part of CN than any of the alliances that she has destroyed in the past. As you say English is not your primary language, I will concede that most likely that is not what you meant to convey. But, in the moment, I felt the same as Tyga, so I fully appreciate where his ire came from.

[Tygaland]

I believe I have integrity in my position and am not denigrating other alliances here. If you find me uncourteous then I apologise, but you would probably find it not the case if you didn't quote selected words and looked at the meaning and depths of feelings behind a whole post. I never said, nor intoned that the Community in other alliances is bad, but I don't speak for them I speak as a Body Republic member of the NPO and I think our community is important to protect, even though our <ooc>pixels</ooc> are lost.

I didn't find you discourteous at all. I found your words to be rather flippant when comparing other alliances to the NPO. I'm well aware you value the community of the NPO or else you'd have joined another alliance. But I think your words were chosen poorly and indicated you felt the alliances that had their community turned upside-down by the NPO and her allies were less serious because they were not as large as the NPO. Now, seeing as you are telling me you value the NPO's community very highly, oyu can probably see why saying such things would bring about the response it has.

I believe strongly in our community as you likely do in yours. The difference is while I accept that we have lost a war, lost a number of tags and spots and prestige that will have a long term effect on us and in addition we have to pay reparations on a scale, that even with inflation is huge, I do not accept that further additional terms designed to keep the NPO down for years is right as their primary purpose appears to be, or at least will have the effect of killing a community. A thing that to me, is precious.

A shame you or people of your ilk have not been leading the NPO then as over the past few years they have delighted in tearing communities apart. Something you can't really ignore when taking these terms into account. However, these terms will do no such thing. Sure, you'll suffer a little more pain before you begin to rebuild, but so have a lot of other alliances that the NPO has trampled in the past. We all took our bruises and moved on (well those that could go on), the NPO should do the same.

[AlmightyGrub]

You also have conclusive proof for the future that we at Pacifica are insane.

We lost a war to people that don't exist

Note: In no way am I suggesting that Sarai said smaller communities don't exist, not everyone here has English as a first language.

Comrade, after reading some of your posts over the last few pages, I am becoming increasingly dismayed. I am starting to actually believe the NPO has lost the war. There is no other explanation for the absolute dribble being presented as propaganda.

It is time to accept the fact you have crappy terms AND do something about them besides whining. Your tears are refilling wells all over Karma at a time when you should be your coolest, calmest and devising an actual escape plan. 200+ pages of Karma sux and OMGZ WE R SPECIAL NPOZ is amusing these vultures even more than your blood in the streets of francograd.

Stop posting crap and get together a real plan, one that actually holds water or give up. The hole simply gets deeper as people with no concept of what has actually happened over the last few years display their incredible naivety and blunder into further deep waters. Seriously, I know this was a plan but 200+ pages has proven nothing but the spamming ability of people new to the forums. The Order surely has better to offer than than.

It is fine to be proud of your alliance, it is fine to be proud of your achievements and your community, but there is a time when some concerted attempt at humility and admission of guilt are appropriate. That time is now. I know it is hard, it wasn't your fault directly, just as it wasn't all mine when Polaris drifted into the wind, but taking some responsibility and ceasing to defend the indefensible would not only be appropriate but also rather intelligent.

[enderland]

These selective quotes used in order to make NPO, "look bad" are the kinds of tricks that I thought were meant to be banished in the past in order to have a fairer game future. With particular regard to your viceroy comment, I take offence at you leaving out my very next sentence which said that "However I would understand that in the current environment losing control is akin to disbanding for a preset period of time and I would generally be against them"

Name a few reasons I should like the NPO please.

I believe I have integrity in my position and am not denigrating other alliances here. If you find me uncourteous then I apologise, but you would probably find it not the case if you didn't quote selected words and looked at the meaning and depths of feelings behind a whole post. I never said, nor intoned that the Community in other alliances is bad, but I don't speak for them I speak as a Body Republic member of the NPO and I think our community is important to protect, even though our <ooc>pixels</ooc> are lost.

I am sorry but I have a lot of trouble with this. It is perfectly ok for your alliance to be the kiss of death for other communities, but the second your alliance is presented with even the POSSIBILITY of it happening to you, suddenly it is the end of the world?

I have news for you mate. The reason that people hate NPO is the fact that your alliance has been responsible, indirectly or directly, for the destruction of far more communities than I could even name of the top of my head. I do not care if the community is 10 or 700, your alliance was involved in the anhilation of plenty of them yourselves.

Your community is so precious? Perhaps your government should have thought about that before undertaking actions that might put it at risk, because I have news for you.

So were the ones you destroyed.

[Sarai]

It is time to accept the fact you have crappy terms AND do something about them besides whining. Your tears are refilling wells all over Karma at a time when you should be your coolest, calmest and devising an actual escape plan. 200+ pages of Karma sux and OMGZ WE R SPECIAL NPOZ is amusing these vultures even more than your blood in the streets of francograd.

Stop posting crap and get together a real plan, one that actually holds water or give up.

It is not our place as Body Republic members to devise plans on a public forum. Rather we can post feelings, that's what is left to us generally.

If I was looking at these terms and trying to fix them I'd perhaps try and work out the main sticking point which appears to me to be the war on all our other nations for a somewhat vague period of time.

Throwing stuff into the wind what about if another alliance, say IRON put aside in an "escrow account" $1bn or whatever as rebuilding AID for Pacifica lower level nations. The overall REPS and terms would stay more or less unmodified and yes, our higher level nations would generally get attacked for two weeks. After those two weeks we begin to repay reps, but at the sametime IRON (or some KARMA alliance or whatever) sends rebuilding aid to our small nations (say all those under 3k N/S). That way our junior members can keep developing, we still pay the $xbn + tech asked for and you get your wars you so demand on the 'senior' nations.

However these plans are not up to me and I don't see anything but a small part of the picture. Nor do I want to see a larger part, because I didn't join a Democracy, I joined like most Alliances one where the leader does what is right for the alliance.

Anyway, smarter heads than mine should work out a way to allow us to keep our community while giving KARMA what they want.

[Teriethien]

I did not say that. Some people here would like to read in between my words which as a non-English speaker are always not the most well crafted. I have said that as a large alliance we have a strong community, I have not said smaller alliances do not. I have said that we have advantages in that large community, I then in the next sentence said your alliance also has its own advantage <snip> Using my words that are meant only to talk in a fair way about a few things I feel strongly about is counter-productive and goes against the spirit of trying to achieve some understanding. With my very first post stating "two wrongs don't make a right" I am clearly stating my moral position.

The way you phrased it initially felt to me as though you believe NPO is somehow different (read: superior) to other, smaller alliances and prompted that response to James. If it is nothing more than a poor choice of words than I apologise, I did not mean to take your word out of context. Rather, you appear to be a nice enough person and I don't disagree with your principles. My post was only meant to point out why specific things you wrote could be offensive.

These 500 people should have a chance to continue in the alliance they have chosen and not be forced by your actions to disband.

It is not the intention of Karma to disband the NPO either directly or indirectly. The terms are designed to be harsh, not as a means of forcing the NPO to disband.

[AlmightyGrub]

It is not our place as Body Republic members to devise plans on a public forum. Rather we can post feelings, that's what is left to us generally.

If I was looking at these terms and trying to fix them I'd perhaps try and work out the main sticking point which appears to me to be the war on all our other nations for a somewhat vague period of time.

Throwing stuff into the wind what about if another alliance, say IRON put aside in an "escrow account" $1bn or whatever as rebuilding AID for Pacifica lower level nations. The overall REPS and terms would stay more or less unmodified and yes, our higher level nations would generally get attacked for two weeks. After those two weeks we begin to repay reps, but at the sametime IRON (or some KARMA alliance or whatever) sends rebuilding aid to our small nations (say all those under 3k N/S). That way our junior members can keep developing, we still pay the $xbn + tech asked for and you get your wars you so demand on the 'senior' nations.

However these plans are not up to me and I don't see anything but a small part of the picture. Nor do I want to see a larger part, because I didn't join a Democracy, I joined like most Alliances one where the leader does what is right for the alliance.

Anyway, smarter heads than mine should work out a way to allow us to keep our community while giving KARMA what they want.

I was simply suggesting you stop posting and start working on a solution because this is not helping. Posting your feelings, when your feelings are inherently distorted by your point of view is no longer useful and it is hurting you rather than helping.

[Teriethien]

If I was looking at these terms and trying to fix them I'd perhaps try and work out the main sticking point which appears to me to be the war on all our other nations for a somewhat vague period of time.

All it would take to fix this sticking point would be for the NPO to extract an official promise from Karma to do something like:

Each nation will only be warred on for 14 days. No more, no less. Peace will be offered after the 14 days. We would also maintain a list of who has warred the requisite 14 days and who hasn't. Once there has reached 90 percent compliance, then the other portions of the terms begins.

Or some clarifications regarding what to do to if the NPO is just shy of 90% out of peacemode. From my vintage the NPO doesn't seem to be trying very hard at negotiating, unless Karma have rebuffed such attempts which doesn't seem to be the case (note I'm not saying change the terms).

Edited June 16, 2009 by Teriethien

[enderland]

Anyway, smarter heads than mine should work out a way to allow us to keep our community while giving KARMA what they want.

The point of surrender terms is not so that both sides get precisely what they want. Your government of all people should be well aware of that.

[Bob Janova]

Sarai, your whining about community (apart from digging you into more holes by claiming that yours is more important than those you destroyed or seriously damaged) is simply irrelevant, because the terms are not designed to destroy your alliance, or even keep you down for 'years'. As Azaghul has clearly shown in this and other threads, they are easily completable within 6 months. If some of your members can't stomach the idea of actually losing a war and facing the consquences, and leave, then they were only fair-weather members anyway – and after 60 days of war, most of those will have gone by now.

And yes, you certainly should have thought of the 'precious' nature of alliance communities in the past when you, as a Pacifican, gave direct military and political support to your leaders' attempts (some successful) to destroy others' communities. You are not going to get the sympathy vote because of your history.

[Sarai]

The point of surrender terms is not so that both sides get precisely what they want. Your government of all people should be well aware of that.

So you're sadly saying that even if what we want is our Community, that is too much for us to have left? Seems a bit of a steep price and why in essence this thread has gone on for 208+ pages. I would hardly call losing everything that has been mentioned countless times "precisely what NPO wants", heh.

Sarai, your whining about community (apart from digging you into more holes by claiming that yours is more important than those you destroyed or seriously damaged) is simply irrelevant, because the terms are not designed to destroy your alliance, or even keep you down for 'years'. As Azaghul has clearly shown in this and other threads, they are easily completable within 6 months. If some of your members can't stomach the idea of actually losing a war and facing the consquences, and leave, then they were only fair-weather members anyway – and after 60 days of war, most of those will have gone by now.

And yes, you certainly should have thought of the 'precious' nature of alliance communities in the past when you, as a Pacifican, gave direct military and political support to your leaders' attempts (some successful) to destroy others' communities. You are not going to get the sympathy vote because of your history.

I would not say in any of my posts I come across as "Whining" and nor have I said we are more important as I have clarified a couple of times already to others.

As others have clearly shown elsewhere the 6 months is not 'doable' with your present set of terms. I'm afraid we will have to each disagree with each others' maths.

Finally... I can't judge you on how long you have been around in this world, I can only comment on a year that I have been around. Sorry that I am not more than what I am, a normal member of an alliance la.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Sarai

[Teriethien]

So you're sadly saying that even if what we want is our Community, that is too much for us to have left? Seems a bit of a steep price and why in essence this thread has gone on for 208+ pages. I would hardly call losing everything that has been mentioned countless times "precisely what NPO wants", heh.

The surrender terms won't destroy your community. They are harsh, yes, but still doable. If your community is all you want then the NPO would have accepted these terms already; the reason I can see that you haven't is because you want to keep your pride.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Teriethien

[enderland]

So you're sadly saying that even if what we want is our Community, that is too much for us to have left? Seems a bit of a steep price and why in essence this thread has gone on for 208+ pages. I would hardly call losing everything that has been mentioned countless times "precisely what NPO wants", heh.

Your community won't be destroyed by these terms, nor would it be destroyed by terms 2x or 3x as bad. It has been very mathematically proven that your alliance is more than capable of paying the reps under their terms.

I would not say in any of my posts I come across as "Whining" and nor have I said we are more important as I have clarified a couple of times already to others.

Unfortunately for you, when your alliance partakes in events far worse than those you receive and then you defend them it will be seen as whining.

As others have clearly shown elsewhere the 6 months is not 'doable' with your present set of terms. I'm afraid we will have to each disagree with each others' maths.

I hate to break it to you but the economic gurus of this game do NOT reside in NPO. Hell your alliance still believes in the concept of banks, which was outdated by the time UJP happened let alone now.

[enderland]

The surrender terms won't destroy your community. They are harsh, yes, but still doable. If your community is all you want then the NPO would have accepted these terms already; the reason I can see that you haven't is because you want to keep your pride.

Bingo.

Pride (and arrogance) is the only reason keeping NPO from accepting these terms.

[Kristospherein]

Oh God....it's painfully obvious that so many of you guys have racked up most of your post numbers in this thread.

Read the OP. Seriously. Read it again.

Now, read the above.

According to you guys, you didn't accept the terms as offered. You offered more.

Lord, you guys are just painfully dumb. Do yourselves a favor and stop arguing with people who have been here since damn-near the beginning.

Or don't....I don't know. All I do know is that you're making it worse for yourselves, and it's painful to watch.

How about you read the OP. Yes we increased a certain part of the overall terms. However, we asked certain parts (the worst parts) to be removed in doing so. Therefore, the ultimate goal was to decrease the terms in one section but increase them in another. The resulting set of reps would have been lesser than the current ones offered.

Also, just because you have been posting on the CN forums, as you state it, "forever," doesn't mean it has been intelligent posting.

[enderland]

How about you read the OP. Yes we increased a certain part of the overall terms. However, we asked certain parts (the worst parts) to be removed in doing so. Therefore, the ultimate goal was to decrease the terms in one section but increase them in another. The resulting set of reps would have been lesser than the current ones offered.

Your alliance is in no position to make demands on those that are attacking it. You would have to offer something that would actually be comparable in terms of value to those attacking, and seriously, 1,000,000,000 is a trivial CN figure.

[Doitzel]

How about you read the OP. Yes we increased a certain part of the overall terms. However, we asked certain parts (the worst parts) to be removed in doing so.

Do you know what those "worst parts" are?

[Denial]

How about you read the OP. Yes we increased a certain part of the overall terms. However, we asked certain parts (the worst parts) to be removed in doing so. Therefore, the ultimate goal was to decrease the terms in one section but increase them in another. The resulting set of reps would have been lesser than the current ones offered.

So, you demanded lighter surrender terms and you're wondering why that idea wasn't well-received by Karma?

[Chaoshawk]

OCC: 210. Whoa shut up everybody.

All this debate about the terms will solve nothing, the arguements in this thread won't solve anything except failing. Do something productive about ending this instead of argueing who is right and who is wrong.

[Grumpdogg]

So you'd rather an entire alliance of 700 people (minus whatever ghosts are still left, obviously) [OOC]no longer be able to play the game that you and everyone else in this thread seems to enjoy playing? How selfish of you. All of you.[/OOC]

No, when I said there are "No Think of the Children" clauses in war I meant that anytime you go to war, particularly an offensive war, there are no guarantees that it is going to end well and be a fun experience for your alliance.

I would rather you accept the consequences and forge a new, stronger alliance. As I said, other alliances have found the period while they are under terms galvanizes the true members of their alliance into an unbreakable core of friends. Losing a war isn't fun, being under terms isn't fun, but coming out the other side is a great experience.

[Eigrim]

So you're sadly saying that even if what we want is our Community, that is too much for us to have left? Seems a bit of a steep price and why in essence this thread has gone on for 208+ pages. I would hardly call losing everything that has been mentioned countless times "precisely what NPO wants", heh.

Large parts of the world, outside of The NPO, obviously see the leaders of your community as a gang of war criminals. You as an ordinary member are placing your time and resources at their disposal. They would never have been able to commit all those crimes without the willing participation of all the ordinary members.

I fail to see why your community should receive any trust and sympathy as long as you persist in being willing tools for a gang of war criminals. Should you however choose to make a wiser choice of leadership, I bet you would find the situation very different.