Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Choader]

Did an alliance really accept all those terms?

Did an alliance really demand all those terms?

[mykep]

Actually, they'll probably increase from here.

I would hope so.

[erikz]

Stop the OOC excuses. If you're not busy enough to allow nation building, you're also capable of making 10-20 clicks more per day to fight.

edit: spelling :s

Edited June 15, 2009 by erikz

[TypoNinja]

Moo's holier than thou attitude in the OP about terms becomes nothing short of hilarious in light of this quote.

[12:13] <Moo-Cows> the other nations in peace must feel the pain the rest of the alliance suffered

[12:13] <Moo-Cows> I did not shape these terms but I believe in that strongly

[Azhrarn]

@ Sir Sci,

You sir, have me at a disadvantage, because there are many things I’d like to say but cannot. I will say this however. I’m sure you’re aware that some while ago, many of the “Old Guard” as you put it, got together and offered their advice for the reformation of GATO. They were tired of seeing it flounder around as an impotent giant. Their advice was ignored. So before you start invoking the names of the Old Guard, ask yourself what they would think of the GATO of today. You seem to feel that they would approve. I’m not so sure that’s a valid statement/assumption.

@ Ragashingo,

In addition to the remarks above, let me add this. GATO tried very hard to mend relations with the NPO before the GATO-1V, and their reward was to be put under a viceroy for a spurious CB. A CB, I might add, which at its heart involved the OOC persecution of the individual behind the IC persona known as Chris_Kaos, otherwise known as EZI, a policy which Moo denied ever practicing in the OP. That GATO would accept a PIAT after said occupation comes as no great surprise for a number of reasons. That doesn't change the fact that I consider it an unfortunate act.

Also, on the one hand you are downplaying said PIAT, while simultaneously making it sound as if all is now peace and light between the two alliances. So which is it? As I mentioned before, the fact that das girl waited until about 2 weeks ago to return to GATO speaks volumes, as does the fact that someone like BarbulaM1 would pen lines such as these below:

Letum, NPO was at GATO for just a week or so under a year over a very questionable CB. Yet you are whining about 11.2 months for years of what Karma calls oppresion. I just find it personally funny.

If someone as diplomatic as BarbulaM1 is willing to voice these thoughts on the OWF, it makes me wonder what thoughts remain unvoiced in the minds of many other GATOans.

tl;dr

Yes, the generation of the Old Guard was an important part of GATO. But so were the later generations that followed – some of whose legacy, contributions and history now seem to have been expunged. That is the point I was trying to make.

Edit. Of course the same point also applies to the Legion. And here I'll reference a post made by soccerbum879 ITT:

I guess not. It's true, I do beleive Pacifica TRIED to help. The problem is that, in the process, Pacifica did something indescribale to the culture of the Legion. There shouldn't have been a Viceroy to begin with. GATO, I feel, ended up the same way, though I think they are finally starting to realize / enjoy their freedom, so it will be interesting to see where they go from here.

On topic, I do believe the terms are (slightly) harsh, but I do not fault those handing Pacifica these terms: They are, after all, many nations that have had to lose their identify in order to live on Planet Bob, mostly at the hands of Pacifica herself.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Frederico Rodriguez]

Where were most of you guys to defend GATO during the 1V War?

It's all PR and gossiping to you people isn't it.

[Systemfailure]

Yes, eventually.

cool, then accept the terms now and get on with the rebuilding.

[magicninja]

GATO has asked Karma repeatedly not to use what happened to GATO as justifcation for actions they commit upon NPO. They just don't listen. It isn't because GATO wants to side with NPO over this per se. It's because GATO has been through it and wouldn't wish the same treatment upon anybody.

[Matthew Conrad]

GATO has asked Karma repeatedly not to use what happened to GATO as justifcation for actions they commit upon NPO. They just don't listen. It isn't because GATO wants to side with NPO over this per se. It's because GATO has been through it and wouldn't wish the same treatment upon anybody.

No one has to go through it. NPO is being allowed their sovereignty; there are no viceroys being imposed here.

[magicninja]

No one has to go through it. NPO is being allowed their sovereignty; there are no viceroys being imposed here.

Focusing on the wrong part of the terms Jim. Think of which part of these terms always ends up with the word GATO in the sentence and then you may figure it out.

[BarbulaM1]

No one has to go through it. NPO is being allowed their sovereignty; there are no viceroys being imposed here.

Very well, that is understood. Might I also point out that communication lines exist or at least I hope they do. That was one major problem when waring with NPO is that they refused diplomacy and ignored any contact. The first contact was a list of terms well into the conflict, 24 hours to accept or face prolonged war with even more harsh terms or no terms in the end. Disheartening to say the least, so Karma keep lines of communication open for diplomacy at all times. It is an injustice to deny the right of diplomacy.

Viceroys are almost impossible to enforce legally under the ToS, it is my hope that the decision was not based on that fact.

Magic, it is pointless to argue that point. We've made an official statement already regarding it, beating it to death feeds trolls. Needless to say whether we like it or not we are to an extent involved in Cybernations political games, it is meh...

Edited June 15, 2009 by BarbulaM1

[magicninja]

Magic, it is pointless to argue that point. We've made an official statement already regarding it, beating it to death feeds trolls.

That's my forte. They love me for it. I'm not happy until someone is red in the face and punches their monitor.

[George the Great]

Focusing on the wrong part of the terms Jim. Think of which part of these terms always ends up with the word GATO in the sentence and then you may figure it out.

Oh, since GATO asked, which I still don't understand why but w/e, that means it never happened. Touché, good sir, touché.

Didn't they also tell FAN they wouldn't get peace until they fought the war? This of course despite the fact they had all ready fought the war before they were re-attacked for "term violations". Oh wow, I hope FAN hasn't said they don't want us talking about that recently. If they did then that won't have ever happened either. :\ I hate when history simply disappears.

[Matthew Conrad]

Focusing on the wrong part of the terms Jim. Think of which part of these terms always ends up with the word GATO in the sentence and then you may figure it out.

You must mean the terms that don't need GATO's approval seeing as there is a very clear reason why they are being used. People don't use GATO as the main reason for the terms; they mention GATO to show the hypocrisy of the NPO.

EDIT: Clarity

Edited June 15, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[magicninja]

Oh, since GATO asked, which I still don't understand why but w/e, that means it never happened. Touché, good sir, touché.

Didn't they also tell FAN they wouldn't get peace until they fought the war? This of course despite the fact they had all ready fought the war before they were re-attacked for "term violations". Oh wow, I hope FAN hasn't said they don't want us talking about that recently. If they did then that won't have ever happened either. :\ I hate when history simply disappears.

Oh it happened and if GATO wants to use it as a revenge tool it's totally understandable. You guys riding it just makes you guys look like tools man. Especially when the offended alliance formally asks you not to use them as an excuse. I like you GtG. I love Athens as well and seeing you guys use others peoples grievances against NPO makes me sad for you guys.

Edited June 15, 2009 by magicninja

[George the Great]

Very well, that is understood. Might I also point out that communication lines exist or at least I hope they do. That was one major problem when waring with NPO is that they refused diplomacy and ignored any contact. The first contact was a list of terms well into the conflict, 24 hours to accept or face prolonged war with even more harsh terms or no terms in the end. Disheartening to say the least, so Karma keep lines of communication open for diplomacy at all times. It is an injustice to deny the right of diplomacy.

Viceroys are almost impossible to enforce legally under the ToS, it is my hope that the decision was not based on that fact.

Magic, it is pointless to argue that point. We've made an official statement already regarding it, beating it to death feeds trolls. Needless to say whether we like it or not we are to an extent involved in Cybernations political games, it is meh...

The lines are always open. We felt that we should voice our opinion that we had no intention to alter the current terms because we are certain that the NPO is able to, and still will be able to complete the terms as presented.

(19:41:51) (Londo|busy) The assembled coalition of alliances facing you is unwilling to further change the terms which have been offered.

(19:42:03) (Londo|busy) And feels like enough negotiation and concessions have occurred.

(19:42:21) (Londo|busy) And the consensus is that the terms on the table will remain as they are, open and indefinitely.

(19:42:28) (Mary_the_Fantabulous) So sayeth whom?

(19:42:32) (Londo|busy) uhhh

(19:42:33) (Londo|busy) we do

(19:42:35) (Londo|busy) all of us.

(19:42:36) (Londo|busy) yeah.

(19:42:38) (Mary_the_Fantabulous) "we"

(19:42:56) (Smooth[VE]) Oh god umm Ov, VE, GOD, Vanguard, Athens, FOK, Sparta

(19:43:06) (Smooth[VE]) who else is in this.. uhh...

(19:43:10) (Londo|busy) whoever is fighting you

(19:43:23) (Londo|busy) it's one of them consensus decisions.

(19:43:26) (Mary_the_Fantabulous) Quite a large number to decide that.

(19:43:28) (@Moo-Cows) so you are not interested in a counter offer?

(19:43:44) (@Moo-Cows) that involves more reps?

(19:43:47) (Smooth[VE]) We're willing to hear it.

(19:43:52) (Mary_the_Fantabulous) We were going to present you a counter offer of sorts

(19:43:52) (VektorZero) Well.

(19:43:55) (Mary_the_Fantabulous) Damn it, Moo

(19:43:59) (Londo|busy) Yeah

(19:44:00) (Mary_the_Fantabulous) Typing faster than me

(19:44:02) (Londo|busy) go ahead and present it

(19:44:05) (Londo|busy) I'm just saying

(19:44:09) (Londo|busy) that's been the consensus decision.

(19:44:34) (Smooth[VE]) We can still here their offer, Londo.

(19:44:40) (Londo|busy) yes

(19:44:41) (Smooth[VE]) hear

Even after stating our opinion that the terms were not going to be changed any more than they all ready had been the previous day, our representatives still listened to what they had to say. The terms aren't getting any worse, despite their ill-intended publicity stunt. They are still on the table and they will still be on the table, whenever it is they decide to accept them.

I can also assure you that no one had any intention to force a viceroy on the NPO, whether it's hard to do due to the TOS or not.

[greatmagnus]

Thread summary for those of you just tuning in:

NPO:

We shall never pay these reps, we don't deserve this, we never did anything!

Karma:

l_b This is our care cup. It is empty.

[Matthew Conrad]

Very well, that is understood. Might I also point out that communication lines exist or at least I hope they do. That was one major problem when waring with NPO is that they refused diplomacy and ignored any contact. The first contact was a list of terms well into the conflict, 24 hours to accept or face prolonged war with even more harsh terms or no terms in the end. Disheartening to say the least, so Karma keep lines of communication open for diplomacy at all times. It is an injustice to deny the right of diplomacy.

Viceroys are almost impossible to enforce legally under the ToS, it is my hope that the decision was not based on that fact.

Magic, it is pointless to argue that point. We've made an official statement already regarding it, beating it to death feeds trolls. Needless to say whether we like it or not we are to an extent involved in Cybernations political games, it is meh...

I think you'll agree with me when I say this is why NPO is in this predicament. Besides this, NPO was of course offered terms directly after they attacked OV. iirc they were a good bit lighter than these presented to them now. No one can say Karma didn't give NPO a fair, diplomatic solution to this.

To address your last line, I don't use GATO as a reason to call NPO nations out of peace mode. I use you all to point out the hypocrisy of those Pacificans who are whining about us doing it.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

Thread summary for those of you just tuning in:

NPO:

We shall never pay these reps, we don't deserve this, we never did anything!

Karma:

l_b This is our care cup. It is empty.

Then add 168 pages of

NPO: Then you're just as bad as us!

Karma: Not really

NPO: Ya really

Karma: Not really

NPO: Ya really

[George the Great]

Oh it happened and if GATO wants to use it as a revenge tool it's totally understandable. You guys riding it just makes you guys look like tools man. Especially when the offended alliance formally asks you not to use them as an excuse. I like you GtG. I love Athens as well and seeing you guys use others peoples grievances against NPO makes me sad for you guys.

We chose the name Karma for a reason, magicninja. I think it's also fairly safe to say that the NPO wouldn't have released GATO so soon from their viceroyship if it wasn't for the impending war that they were going to instigate, but that's just my opinion. What about the FAN comment, though? They too probably wouldn't have been freed so soon, if ever. The same goes for the recently rescinded Moldavi Doctrine, the rewording of the Revenge Doctrine and the sudden realization by the New Pacific Order that ordering nations out of peace mode under penalty of PZI probably wasn't that nice of a move.

Now, do you think they changed these things because they believed in changing them, or because they believed them to be politically convenient?

[zhihao]

Don't worry, KARMA just want their money

[NoFish]

GATO has asked Karma repeatedly not to use what happened to GATO as justifcation for actions they commit upon NPO. They just don't listen. It isn't because GATO wants to side with NPO over this per se. It's because GATO has been through it and wouldn't wish the same treatment upon anybody.

No one's using GATO as a justification for the actions we're committing upon NPO, only to say that NPO has no ground to stand on when tey whine about it, having done worse themselves. You want to see our justification for these terms? Here it is. All the justification we need for what we're doing.

Don't worry, KARMA just want their money

Yes. We just want our money, that's why we refused to accept more of it in exchange for dropping a couple other terms. You've got some serious doublethink going on there.

[magicninja]

We chose the name Karma for a reason, magicninja. I think it's also fairly safe to say that the NPO wouldn't have released GATO so soon from their viceroyship if it wasn't for the impending war that they were going to instigate, but that's just my opinion. What about the FAN comment, though? They too probably wouldn't have been freed so soon, if ever. The same goes for the recently rescinded Moldavi Doctrine, the rewording of the Revenge Doctrine and the sudden realization by the New Pacific Order that ordering nations out of peace mode under penalty of PZI probably wasn't that nice of a move.

Now, do you think they changed these things because they believed in changing them, or because they believed them to be politically convenient?

Of course they did it from political pressure and I thought you guys were doing great then but by pushing it too far you guys are putting a stain on those accomplishments. What you guys don't seem to understand is that by saying that NPO deserves it because they did it before that you guys are putting yourself in the same boat for the future. You guys get to set the bar now and I don't think you're doing a very good job of that.

I can't speak for how FAN feels about you guys using them as an excuse. You'll have to ask them I guess.

[Alterego]

No one's using GATO as a justification for the actions we're committing upon NPO, only to say that NPO has no ground to stand on when tey whine about it, having done worse themselves. You want to see our justification for these terms? Here it is. All the justification we need for what we're doing.

justification

a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends:

A regular DoW doesn't justify what you are doing, it is just your excuse, like all the historical "crimes" you took part in. If it does justify this then all future DoWs will end this way if they are defeated, you have raised the bar higher than it has ever been.

Justify

To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin.

Thats why you guys are trying to blame NPO for every decision you are making, you know its wrong and need to try and free yourselves from the guilt for your grievous sin. You guys are doing this out of envy, fear, hate and opportunity that is your reason and justification. Its not a secret, denial is the 1st stage.

[Matthew Conrad]

Of course they did it from political pressure and I thought you guys were doing great then but by pushing it too far you guys are putting a stain on those accomplishments. What you guys don't seem to understand is that by saying that NPO deserves it because they did it before that you guys are putting yourself in the same boat for the future. You guys get to set the bar now and I don't think you're doing a very good job of that.

I can't speak for how FAN feels about you guys using them as an excuse. You'll have to ask them I guess.

The reps are set up so those who deserve them get them. If we were to claim NPO committed some great crime against us personally, then yes we would have little ground to stand on. The fact that we support these reps doesn't mean we support the same for ourselves. When we commit our support, we give it to those getting these reps because they deserve them. However, none of us have denied being part of that regime. We only hope that we can now help change the course we helped set at one point. Basically, magicninja if we tried to justify large reps for ourselves by blaming NPO for past wars we were part of then you would have a legitimate case. As it stands, our pledge of support doesn't affect or reflect our personal situation.