Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[mykep]

Why was FAN attacked the second time?

Heh.

(Actually, it's also why GATO was attacked.)

Illuminati planned to attack back and spy with members who joined after being SF POWs. Not because there were 8 factories.

Well I assume Superfriends wouldn't care at all because we're evil

You think only of yourselves and you have a terrible attitude. I cannot wait for the rest of the world to do something about it with you and the rest of you. You evil evil people.

[King DrunkWino]

When I was in Athens, people kept dogging me for wanting to go with moderate terms instead of disbandment.

If I had to categorize some terms I've heard, I think DIAF is probably the most lenient.

[R&R-Viking]

Yes your so evil, I mean with a name like Super Friends what else would you be?

Drunks. We're also raging alcoholics.

[Vol Navy]

Because Sponge was closely allied to NPO? NPO condoned the actions regardless of the disbandment of alliances that had been their allies less than a month before.

Examples of Sparta and RoK and terrible terms? Sparta took 1k tech from GR, and part of that was forgiven to us.

You do realize that on that list, NPO started almost all of those wars, right? There are more wars, just those are the examples of ones started by NPO or that NPO was involved in.

Just as much as most everyone else in the past deserved them

Edit for clarity.

Sparta was part of a group that gave GR awful terms. They called for the decomming of 5 wonders, later edited to 4 after realizing that you can't decom the MP.

Those terms alone potentially cost GR billions of dollars. If 1 nation had the wonders they lost the 250 million or so they invested in the wonders and the 250 million to buy them back. Plus the months and months of wonder purchase slots they filled. I'd rather give up 1000 tech than give up 2 wonders, let alone 5. That's how meaningless the 1000 tech part of the terms were compared to the wonder decomming.

As to the NpO point, because NPO was allied to NpO it's their fault he gave those terms and NPO should be punished because of them?

If that's the case almost all of Karma is going to have to take a beating, because I'll guarantee you if they haven't given out harsh terms themselves, they've at the very least been closely allied to someone who did. Many fighting against NPO right now that are asking for these reps fall into that category.

Also, NPO started the wars? Were at least some of them started with just cause? Or are they all unjust because NPO was involved and won them?

Two things come from what is left of Karma these days.

Fear and hate.

Fear and hate is driving the bus now. It's taken over foreign policy for many of the alliances that are still keeping the remains of Karma going in it's loose coalition.

So I say good luck in the future. The standard is now set that if you are even allied to someone at some point that you are just as responsible for their actions as a soverign alliance as you are for your own. That any past wrong is never forgiven. That many past wrongs you had little to do with will be laid at your doorstep and used as justification to destroy you.

That's not quite the lofty Karma goals initially laid out by Archon, but reality and idealism rarely meet up when dealing with human beings who tend by their very nature to be irrational about certain things.

[TypoNinja]

Drunks. We're also raging alcoholics.

That one I believe, I do hang out in your IRC.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

One of the more kinder phrases I've heard is give them 9/10th's of their own medicine.

[R&R-Viking]

Fear and hate is driving the bus now.

We prefer the term "hatewagon".

Terrormobile is acceptable.

[Gamemaster1]

One of the more kinder phrases I've heard is give them 9/10th's of their own medicine.

Considering Karma is giving them terms from all combined wars (minus a few of the ones no one does anymore), I'm curious as to how this will escalate when members of Karma get hit, and will get these monetary reps and 14 day war that they put on NPO. What comes around does go around, after all. Except this will also be escalated because of 'inflation'. Predictions? I say post-war alliance tech x 10, and 15 mil per alliance member for the next alliance to get rolled by a member of Karma.

Maybe only those with over 2k tech are allowed to pay?

Edited June 15, 2009 by Gamemaster1

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

Considering Karma is giving them terms from all combined wars (minus a few of the ones no one does anymore), I'm curious as to how this will escalate when members of Karma get hit, and will get these monetary reps and 14 day war that they put on NPO. What comes around does go around, after all. Except this will also be escalated because of 'inflation'. Predictions? I say post-war alliance tech x 10, and 15 mil per alliance member for the next alliance to get rolled by a member of Karma.

We haven't given them anything close to 9/10ths of what they've given. For that to happen, the terms would have to include most of these:

NPO will decom all wonders.

NPO will have a viceroy installed.

NPO's charter will be rewritten to the satisfaction of at least half of the alliances now fighting them.

NPO's government officials will be expelled and PZI'd.

NPO's will decom all but 30 nukes... well let you know when you can have them back.

NPO will send a monthly tribute for an indeterminate amount of time.

NPO's propaganda people will work for us for a while.

NPO will move to the pink team.

NPO will move to an offsite and IRC channel of our choice so we can take over your communications channels without violating the ToS.

...You've also missed decomming military to the point of self-anarchy and the decomm of all factories.

Also, all NPO peace mode nations must leave PM and face war within four days or face PZI.

If you have more soldiers then the 20% as stipulated by the terms (self-anarchy), the NPO shall be declared upon, no matter how few nations or how small the infractions are.

Also missed the no-first-strike-nuking clause.

And expulsion of non-government members.

And installation of a puppet ruler.

Until then, it is not truly Karma. Also, we missed eternal tech farm.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Tolkien

[Willaim Kreiger]

In that case, this thread will be a gold mine for years to come. I will look forward to referencing your opinion in 2011.

If my general attitude and the way I play the game hasn't really changed, feel free.

[mhawk]

We prefer the term "hatewagon".

Terrormobile is acceptable.

Hatorade.

[KenoDurkster]

O/ NPO one day gents you shall rise again and be the Karma mark II and THEN!!! we shall see who the real Karma is ;D then they will become Karma Mark III and so on so forth until the mighty TAO comes around and takes overall for ever ;P.

Anyways wowzers terms are sexy in a very sad and pathetic way.... Too anyone who says there fair and just i pitty you im sure 3/4 of karma owe there past victories to NPO ;P and NPO prolly didnt ask for anything or at the most much in return for the help . they didnt have to hold up there treaties but they did... they did not cancel them... prior to a war pretty pathetic.

[Bob]

Sparta was part of a group that gave GR awful terms. They called for the decomming of 5 wonders, later edited to 4 after realizing that you can't decom the MP.

I know. I was in GR. I was government during the time that we decommed wonders etc, and I was the leader of the alliance immediately following the end of it.

Those terms alone potentially cost GR billions of dollars. If 1 nation had the wonders they lost the 250 million or so they invested in the wonders and the 250 million to buy them back. Plus the months and months of wonder purchase slots they filled. I'd rather give up 1000 tech than give up 2 wonders, let alone 5. That's how meaningless the 1000 tech part of the terms were compared to the wonder decomming.

Its 575mil iirc around there we lost in wonder decom, and only one person had two of the wonders required to be removed. the 1000 tech was significant to us because organizing reparations while trying to not bleed members following the war was a pain, and them forgiving us that debt helped. Plus, Sparta did little that war, it was mainly TORN and others against us. Finally, the terms were not decided by Sparta, but by GGA and Valhalla. they are the ones who forced the wonder decom onto GR, not Sparta.

As to the NpO point, because NPO was allied to NpO it's their fault he gave those terms and NPO should be punished because of them?

If that's the case almost all of Karma is going to have to take a beating, because I'll guarantee you if they haven't given out harsh terms themselves, they've at the very least been closely allied to someone who did. Many fighting against NPO right now that are asking for these reps fall into that category.

I would go back and read what WarriorConcept said about this. He knows a lot more about it then I can ever claim to.

Also, NPO started the wars? Were at least some of them started with just cause? Or are they all unjust because NPO was involved and won them?

The Devildogs war, which was started because of the moldavi doctrine? I guess you can call that just cause, but its not really because the moldavi doctrine was a terrible policy that hurt the red team and prevented other alliances from forming on red.

Two things come from what is left of Karma these days.

Fear and hate.

Fear and hate is driving the bus now. It's taken over foreign policy for many of the alliances that are still keeping the remains of Karma going in it's loose coalition.

So I say good luck in the future. The standard is now set that if you are even allied to someone at some point that you are just as responsible for their actions as a soverign alliance as you are for your own. That any past wrong is never forgiven. That many past wrongs you had little to do with will be laid at your doorstep and used as justification to destroy you.

its laughable to imply that they had little to do with most of the wrongs that are being attributed to them. Attempting to portray them as innocent in this is ridiculous.

That's not quite the lofty Karma goals initially laid out by Archon, but reality and idealism rarely meet up when dealing with human beings who tend by their very nature to be irrational about certain things.

Aren't we quite the philosopher?

Edited June 16, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[TypoNinja]

Considering Karma is giving them terms from all combined wars (minus a few of the ones no one does anymore), I'm curious as to how this will escalate when members of Karma get hit, and will get these monetary reps and 14 day war that they put on NPO. What comes around does go around, after all. Except this will also be escalated because of 'inflation'. Predictions? I say post-war alliance tech x 10, and 15 mil per alliance member for the next alliance to get rolled by a member of Karma.

Maybe only those with over 2k tech are allowed to pay?

There is no 'next' for karma, after this war is over there will be no Karma, Karma is a label of convenience to categorize those alliances who fought against NPO and their allies.

[KenoDurkster]

The Devildogs war, which was started because of the moldavi doctrine? I guess you can call that just cause, but its not really because the moldavi doctrine was a terrible policy that hurt the red team and prevented other alliances from forming.

you don't HAVE to form on red... so that is an inaccurate statement.

[sethb]

Anyways wowzers terms are sexy in a very sad and pathetic way.... Too anyone who says there fair and just i pitty you im sure 3/4 of karma owe there past victories to NPO ;P and NPO prolly didnt ask for anything or at the most much in return for the help . they didnt have to hold up there treaties but they did... they did not cancel them... prior to a war pretty pathetic.

What? Try making this understandable.

[Haflinger]

You'll have to go back to the old boards and do some searching I think. What's his name... the "NPO Law Dog"/"still a hater" guy used to say it a lot (maybe in those exact words, maybe not). Triyun as well maybe, or one of the other IOs? The one who banned me from Pacifica's boards in any case. It's been around for a very long time. In fact its use is one of the reasons I chose Polar over Pacifica when I moved from South to North back in the day.

Josef Thorne said it a lot.

I actually associate it more with old Valhalla than I do with NPO, apart from Thorne. I'd be surprised to see a guy like Triyun using it.

Thorne is of course long gone, something I'm actually pretty happy about.

[ChairmanHal]

Heh, funny. In which context if i may ask?

Gramlins had been trolling NPO for some time in the OWF and NPO was looking for a good reason to bury them. What NPO didn't know, but probably suspected, was that had Gramlins been hit, more than just some portion of Citadel would have taken exception to it. It should also be noted that Gramlins had been the speculated target in a variety of other scenarios that never materialized. TOP no doubt had in hand in there some place.

wat.

There Were No Plans For Offensive Operations. We're even sure we could win a defensive war, much less an aggressive one. All we were doing was preparing for the NPO curbstomp, and from the way things turned out I'd say it's a damned good thing we did.

Sitting around in #sfdelegation, there was a consensus that we would, at some point, if the right scenario came down the road, act decisively rather than sitting around like ducks in a shooting gallery. Whether it was over Gramlins, or the spy incident involving Sparta that turned out not to be such a spy incident, or whatever the case, we were quite prepared to roll the dice. Under the best circumstances, it had to look like NPO started it. OV provided the jackpot.

You could I suppose say that the whole response to the OV-TORN-NPO episode was a defensive act. However, that would be downright cheesy at best.

One additional beauty of the plan, aside from the fact that not all the alliances in on it always met together to talk as a group, cutting down on the possibility of exposure, was that #sfdelegation was hosted off Coldfront where access could be better controlled.

The thing is Hal, I only saw three lights in all the same places you saw four. One of us needs their vision checked and I'd bet a whole lot more people only saw three as well.

Not Hoo, not Big_Z, not Gen_Lee, not Rishnokof, not KaitlinK, not Gofastleft, not Xiphosis, not reps from RIA or Fark...no, we all saw 4 lights. Eventually reps from VE, Sparta, C&G and the like saw them too.

Be proud of what you and yours accomplished. Be aware however that it was months in the making and those responsible took many risks. Everything that had to go right, did.

[Vilien]

you don't HAVE to form on red... so that is an inaccurate statement.

Just like you don't HAVE to have an alliance with over fifty members. Next.

[Bob]

you don't HAVE to form on red... so that is an inaccurate statement.

oh wow dang my argument is destroyed now D:

[Gamemaster1]

There is no 'next' for karma, after this war is over there will be no Karma, Karma is a label of convenience to categorize those alliances who fought against NPO and their allies.

I'm using Karma as any of the indiviual alliances in Karma, not as the whole. Eventually, you will declare on one another for various reasons. What happens then? White peace? Or these type of terms, except worse. Something makes me think the latter.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

oh wow dang my argument is destroyed now D:

You are Bob, Bob. Only Bob can be so easily crushed by such a weak counterargument.

[Haflinger]

Gramlins had been trolling NPO for some time in the OWF and NPO was looking for a good reason to bury them. What NPO didn't know, but probably suspected, was that had Gramlins been hit, more than just some portion of Citadel would have taken exception to it.

At least some parts of Pacifica government were quite aware of who would have defended Grämlins. But... Hal, you're not quite right here. Wish I could explain more.

[KenoDurkster]

What? Try making this understandable.

then it's just gonna get bashed down but if you cant understand it you can't break it down

[harris2004]

Exactly..."what goes around comes around", that does include Karma members. setting any invalid arguments or precedents will come back to haunt them.

I'm using Karma as any of the indiviual alliances in Karma, not as the whole. Eventually, you will declare on one another for various reasons. What happens then? White peace? Or these type of terms, except worse. Something makes me think the latter.