Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Alterego]

The reps are set up so those who deserve them get them. If we were to claim NPO committed some great crime against us personally, then yes we would have little ground to stand on. The fact that we support these reps doesn't mean we support the same for ourselves. When we commit our support, we give it to those getting these reps because they deserve them. However, none of us have denied being part of that regime. We only hope that we can now help change the course we helped set at one point. Basically, magicninja if we tried to justify large reps for ourselves by blaming NPO for past wars we were part of then you would have a legitimate case. As it stands, our pledge of support doesn't affect or reflect our personal situation.

How much of the reps will go to GATO & FAN seeing they are the two people keep bringing up?

[NoFish]

A regular DoW doesn't justify what you are doing, it is just your excuse, like all the historical "crimes" you took part in. If it does justify this then all future DoWs will end this way if they are defeated, you have raised the bar higher than it has ever been.

Thats why you guys are trying to blame NPO for every decision you are making, you know its wrong and need to try and free yourselves from the guilt for your grievous sin. You guys are doing this out of envy, fear, hate and opportunity that is your reason and justification. Its not a secret, denial is the 1st stage.

If a "regular" means one that was trumped up from almost nothing then yes, yes it does. If GOD is ever on the losing end of a war that we started on a near-fabricated CB then I will fully expect to see similar terms delivered to us. Yes, you may quote me on that.

[KeyStroke]

Of course they did it from political pressure and I thought you guys were doing great then but by pushing it too far you guys are putting a stain on those accomplishments. What you guys don't seem to understand is that by saying that NPO deserves it because they did it before that you guys are putting yourself in the same boat for the future. You guys get to set the bar now and I don't think you're doing a very good job of that.

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated. I guess it needs to be repeated, once again:

Punishing a criminal by doing the same thing to the criminal that the criminal did to the innocent is justice. It does not make the one who administers that justice into a criminal.

Main Entry: repent

Function:verb

Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French repentir, from Medieval Latin repoenitēre, from Latin re- + Late Latin poenitēre to feel regret, alteration of Latin paenitēre — more at penitent

Date:14th century

intransitive verb

1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind

transitive verb

1: to cause to feel regret or contrition

2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

Main Entry: punishment

Function: noun

Date: 15th century

1: the act of punishing

2 a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

Main Entry: proportional

Function: noun

Date: 14th century

: a number or quantity in a proportion

Main Entry: retribution

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English retribucioun, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin retribution-, retributio, from Latin retribuere to pay back, from re- + tribuere to pay — more at tribute

Date: 14th century

1: recompense, reward

2: the dispensing or receiving of reward or punishment especially in the hereafter

3: something given or exacted in recompense ; especially : punishment

Edited June 15, 2009 by KeyStroke

[uaciaut]

A regular DoW doesn't justify what you are doing, it is just your excuse, like all the historical "crimes" you took part in. If it does justify this then all future DoWs will end this way if they are defeated, you have raised the bar higher than it has ever been.

You're saying that like it's only natural that NPO would come back and demand harsher terms due to this "set bar". Maybe in your imagination NPO have set enough precedents of !@#$%* terms so it's okay for them to continue doing so or coming back with bigger terms after this because it wouldn't be the first time, but it's not okay for anyone else to do so because it would be a first.

Thats why you guys are trying to blame NPO for every decision you are making, you know its wrong and need to try and free yourselves from the guilt for your grievous sin. You guys are doing this out of envy, fear, hate and opportunity that is your reason and justification. Its not a secret, denial is the 1st stage.

Here's the catch: NPO followed up on a grudge against people who defeated them and only asked for an apology (which they later withdrew) for over 2 years. They hated LUE so badly they jumped on the alliance that had a similar image to them and didn't let go of it even when they were proven wrong about their assumptions, repeatedly. They still hated Legion and GATO after all that time - you can see given the wars that happened.

Now i'm not saying i endorse these terms (though i find it EXTREMELY hard to find any sympathy for NPO here), but how are you expecting the ~18 alliances to trust NPO not to go right after them as soon as they recover to full political force? NPO has created enough precedents of going after the people they hate (and feel would come for them) to make a rule out of it (i believe the mathematical term would be induction) and you really can't deny these alliances the right to ask for such harsh terms because you obviously don't care for their safety, you only care for your own and a supposed moral high ground you continue advocating in this thread.

Seriously, it's laughable.

Edited June 15, 2009 by uaciaut

[Azhrarn]

What you guys don't seem to understand is that by saying that NPO deserves it because they did it before that you guys are putting yourself in the same boat for the future.

169 pages and you still don't get it. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of history. The NPO has committed atrocities against other alliances time and again and again. This thread contains links and references aplenty to those atrocities if you would care to open your eyes, but apparently you do not. Punishing the NPO for their sins in the past is entirely justified, and is not in any way "draconian" or "hypocritical." Karma, on the other hand, has not committed any such atrocities. Karma isn't even a formal organization. It will disappear just as soon as the NPO has received the beat-down it has earned a hundred times over.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Doitzel]

How much of the reps will go to GATO & FAN seeing they are the two people keep bringing up?

This is a good idea.

[Matthew Conrad]

How much of the reps will go to GATO & FAN seeing they are the two people keep bringing up?

I wasn't aware they were part of the surrender negotiations.

I hope you didn't take my post as referring to everyone who NPO owes something to. My post only refers to those who are owed and are part of the negotiations. If people want to give some of their reps to FAN or GATO, that's their prerogative.

Edit: Clarification

Edited June 15, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Azhrarn]

This is a good idea.

Seconded. In particular, I would love to see FAN get a chunk of these reparations for everything that they've been put through.

[shahenshah]

Thread summary for those of you just tuning in:

NPO:

We shall never pay these reps, we don't deserve this, we never did anything!

Karma:

l_b This is our care cup. It is empty.

They offered you more reps than you are demanding from them and just added 'Enable us to pay you the reps'.

Edited June 15, 2009 by shahenshah

[Tulafaras]

They offered you more reps than you are demanding from them and just added 'Enable us to pay you the reps'.

they removed 2 key terms for a raise of 1bill. That wasn't an offer, that was an insult.

[shahenshah]

The reps are set up so those who deserve them get them.

Oh the irony.

[Azhrarn]

To sum up: Essentially, my point is that saying current GATO members cannot speak for the old GATO is ridiculous. HELLO! Das IS the old GATO, then there are QUITE A FEW OF US who were around before Chris_Kaos, Walford, and the like.

I believe it's equally ridiculous to say that former GATO or Legion members cannot speak for the old GATO or the old Legion - particularly those GATOans or Legionnaires who are no longer part of those alliances through no choice of their own.

[Doitzel]

They offered you more reps than you are demanding from them and just added 'Enable us to pay you the reps'.

This is not true.

[Ellis]

This might have been said, but the funny thing is, out of 13 of the IO's, (excluding SDRD and Millionaro), 5 including Mary are below the reps threshold as of 13/5. Not that I agree with that, but it kind of fails the stated purpose 'punish the guilty instead of them forcing others to pay for them', doesn't it?

169 pages and you still don't get it. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of history. The NPO has committed atrocities against other alliances time and again and again. This thread contains links and references aplenty to those atrocities if you would care to open your eyes, but apparently you do not. Punishing the NPO for their sins in the past is entirely justified, and is not in any way "draconian" or "hypocritical." Karma, on the other hand, has not committed any such atrocities. Karma isn't even a formal organization. It will disappear just as soon as the NPO has received the beat-down it has earned a hundred times over.

It IS a matter of opinion, just as most things are. Just as it is your opinion that some things are atrocities, and mine that some are not. It is history that Pacifica has forceably disbanded alliances, PZI'ed and overreacted to events. It is your opinion that these are atrocities, while to others they may be acceptable.

[Azhrarn]

It IS a matter of opinion, just as most things are. Just as it is your opinion that some things are atrocities, and mine that some are not. It is history that Pacifica has forceably disbanded alliances, PZI'ed and overreacted to events. It is your opinion that these are atrocities, while to others they may be acceptable.

If this war should have taught you anything at all by now, it's that a large percentage of the inhabitants of Digiterra would agree with me that they are, in fact, atrocities.

[SpiderJerusalem]

Forever a Kuru POW

Forever indeed

[Machiabelly]

I actually agree Azhrarn, but the fact that you say most people agree with you, shows that it is opinion. You don't agree or disagree on facts. I suppose you could say that "In our opinion it is fact" and then you would both be right.

Solved. Want me to take a crack at this peace thing?

[R&R-Viking]

How much of the reps will go to GATO & FAN seeing they are the two people keep bringing up?

Nothing for GATO, since apparently that little segment of history never happened.

[Zeta Defender]

169 pages and you still don't get it. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of history. The NPO has committed atrocities against other alliances time and again and again. This thread contains links and references aplenty to those atrocities if you would care to open your eyes, but apparently you do not. Punishing the NPO for their sins in the past is entirely justified, and is not in any way "draconian" or "hypocritical." Karma, on the other hand, has not committed any such atrocities. Karma isn't even a formal organization. It will disappear just as soon as the NPO has received the beat-down it has earned a hundred times over.

So your justification is because Karma itself isn't a unified bloc, you can get away with Draconian terms and then pawn it off as well we aren't formal. I can say that you all have committed attrocities and that your hands aren't as clean as you make it. You want to blame the NPO for all the evil you have done, it isn't going to work out like that.

For MK, GR: Where was Sparta, Rok, Fark, God, Fok, ODN, VE a year ago, on the opposite from you. I have heard that many of your members were pissed at the NPO for the attacks when at the same side you are on now is based on the same ideology as what you were opposed to a year ago. You can not say that the NPO could control all the alliances on the other side, back mails, etc. It gets to the point where the faces change but the terms are the same, you honestly think that they will be above what you said NPO was. I will say not.

While I can not say that our hands our clean, I don't come here to say that. I come here to say, you wish to give us terms beyond comparison unless you add up the total terms to all alliances in the noCB (War of the Coalition) war as fair to impose on the NPO. What will happen when things don't go the way you though they would. You claim that the NPO will never change, well you may want to look in a mirror and see that once your roles are played what will happen to yourself.

Edit: Please as this is one point that is killing me, stop claiming that the NPO killed or forced alliances to disband as within this thread and many others in the last two months it has been determined that you can not force an alliance to do anything. It is their choice, and their alone.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Zeta Defender

[magicninja]

Ok look I get OV is owed. I get Athens is owed. If you want to say this is punishment to what happened to those two alliances. Fine. That works. You guys seem to want to punish NPO for everything they've ever done. Nobody asked you to do it. GATO didn't call you up and ask you to use the same techniques on NPO and then make them pay for the time GATO was under a viceroy. Did Mpol call you up and ask you to get vengence for FAN? How about GPA? How about any of those alliances outside your coalition that you guys love to cite? No? Well there's a suprise. Yet, you people keep bringing them up like you are entitled to get reps for what NPO did to other people.......

You make me sick with that attitude.

Go after reps for OV and if Athens wants their tech back from the WoTC fine let them have it and more but don't think you can justify any punishment because of what NPO did to any other alliances. Nothing gives you that right. If GATO wants revenge or FAN or GPA let them do it on their own and collect for it themselves.

[NoFish]

Ok look I get OV is owed. I get Athens is owed. If you want to say this is punishment to what happened to those two alliances. Fine. That works. You guys seem to want to punish NPO for everything they've ever done. Nobody asked you to do it. GATO didn't call you up and ask you to use the same techniques on NPO and then make them pay for the time GATO was under a viceroy. Did Mpol call you up and ask you to get vengence for FAN? How about GPA? How about any of those alliances outside your coalition that you guys love to cite? No? Well there's a suprise. Yet, you people keep bringing them up like you are entitled to get reps for what NPO did to other people.......

You make me sick with that attitude.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. GATO/FAN is not a justification for our actions, it is, however a valid example for calling NPO out when they criticize these terms as overly harsh. GATO's terms, GPA's terms and FAN's lack thereof are all harsher than what is being offered. Numerous times I have suggested that if NPO wanted to take GATO's term's viceroy or GPA's term's indefinite 13 nuke limit I'm reasonably sure we would accept those terms and would be happy to negotiate with other coalition members to make that happen.

Go after reps for OV and if Athens wants their tech back from the WoTC fine let them have it and more but don't think you can justify any punishment because of what NPO did to any other alliances. Nothing gives you that right. If GATO wants revenge or FAN or GPA let them do it on their own and collect for it themselves.

Yes. These are reps for OV and those who fought alongside them against unjustified aggression. They are not reps for GATO or FAN or GPA, they are reps for OV and VE and GOD and Vanguard and everyone else who fought alongside us against Pacifican belligerence.

Edited June 15, 2009 by NoFish

[energizer]

That's my forte. They love me for it. I'm not happy until someone is red in the face and punches their monitor.

So, how many monitors do you go through in a week?

[ShinRa]

Hell, 170 pages and the Pacificans are still claiming to be victims. I don't know whether you're intentionally blind to every piece of evidence pointed against you or simply trying to be difficult, but i'm simply going to state the obvious say you might as well agree to take the reps here and now.

You got off easy the first time and i've seen comments which are bordering upon boasting about how easy the NPO got off, so I get the distinct feeling that Karma's not going to lessen your punishment or the surrender terms any time soon.

But as harsh as those reps are, they're only going to get worse as time goes on.

The longer you hold out and prolong the war, the more damage you're going to take from the fighting and more members your going to lose, making it harder for you to pay off the reps in the end. So as bad as things are for you now, they’ll only get worse.

[Henkie]

But as harsh as those reps are, they're only going to get worse as time goes on.

The longer you hold out and prolong the war, the more damage you're going to take from the fighting and more members your going to lose, making it harder for you to pay off the reps in the end. So as bad as things are for you now, they’ll only get worse.

They can't get any worse. I mean, reps that can't be payed, won't be payed. Whether we're not paying 7 billion, 8 billion, or 800 billion is of no real consequence.

[Haflinger]

Yes. These are reps for OV and those who fought alongside them against unjustified aggression. They are not reps for GATO or FAN or GPA, they are reps for OV and VE and GOD and Vanguard and everyone else who fought alongside us against Pacifican belligerence.

OV needs more than 8 billion and 300K technology in reps?

I guess they were bigger than I thought before the war