End of Terms: NPO and Beyond

[Tulafaras]

It would be. Fortunately that's not what I said.

I said, a victorious defender ends the war when the security of the target is assured.

so you want to say we have to keep fighting until the NPO is no longer in a position to threaten OV?

If so this is going to be a long war.

The argument wether this war is defensive or offensive is actually pretty easy to solve, it's both.

OV clearly is in a defensive war, and i'd argue that their direct allies are the same since they involved themselve to defend OV.

The alliances which followed oA clauses into this war are fighting an offensive war.

The question wether "karma" is the defender or not cannot be truly answered since there is no diplomatic block called karma.

[Jipps]

I don't get why jipps is so obsessed with turning this to a agressive war by karma though. I guess it sounds better and it's probably easier to argue for white peace for them if they're the defending party. If NPO were the agressors it'd be too obvious that they should at least pay some reps to OV if nothing else so NPO suddenly getting attacked by karma for no obvious reason works alot better in this story.

I am only obsessed with the spreading of truth. I used it to support my arguements, but it was still entirely based on logic and facts. Honestly it doesn't matter much.

so you want to say we have to keep fighting until the NPO is no longer in a position to threaten OV?

If so this is going to be a long war.

The argument wether this war is defensive or offensive is actually pretty easy to solve, it's both.

OV clearly is in a defensive war, and i'd argue that their direct allies are the same since they involved themselve to defend OV.

The alliances which followed oA clauses into this war are fighting an offensive war.

The question wether "karma" is the defender or not cannot be truly answered since there is no diplomatic block called karma.

Very well put my friend.

[Haflinger]

It's also quite clear that OV was not the only "target" here either, heh.

Kindly elaborate, dear sir.

so you want to say we have to keep fighting until the NPO is no longer in a position to threaten OV?

If so this is going to be a long war.

Umm, I think OV's safety from attack by NPO for the foreseeable future has already been demonstrated. You have a strange view of reality.

[Roadie]

From reports, NPO has enough saved money to take those 1k nations back to around 3-4k at least. After that, they can build their own infra and it wouldn't take long to regain full nuclear capability.

I think a point missing here is NPOs lack of allies. I don't see how they can get revenge without a significant amount of allies. Something that isn't likely to happen on a time frame short enough to make what the reps are matter.

Meaning even if Karma does knock a few more mil NS and get at several billions of that money, or get it in reps. The time it takes them to rebuild would be shorter than the time it takes them to get enough allies to accomplish what is trying to be avoided with these terms.

Edit: Another thing I wonder is if enough attention is being payed to the possibility of creating a monster. Yes, I know the claim is that they already are one, which I won't argue. What would concern me if I was in Karma shoes, is what mindset I'm forming in NPOs newest members. Those being from the NPO Applicant AA. This is their first rodeo here in CN and I would think this will leave a very bad taste in their mouth.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Roadie

[Kataklizm the Great]

Kindly elaborate, dear sir.

Umm, I think OV's safety from attack by NPO for the foreseeable future has already been demonstrated. You have a strange view of reality.

Yeah, I think OV is safe...it's everyone else who fought against NPO that's in danger, if the NPO is let off without meaningful punishment. Yes, punishment, who here can look at the NPO's track record and not conclude they haven't merited a swat on the butt? If a school yard bully is punished by a teacher, it doesn't make the teacher "as bad as the bully".

One last observation...Mr. Nizzle, were you the defense attorney at Nueremburg? If you were, I'd be more inclined to forgive you for your choice of clients, knowing you were appointed and all.

[neneko]

I am only obsessed with the spreading of truth. I used it to support my arguements, but it was still entirely based on logic and facts. Honestly it doesn't matter much.

There is no truth or logic in subjective statements, stop claiming that over and over.

The argument wether this war is defensive or offensive is actually pretty easy to solve, it's both.

OV clearly is in a defensive war, and i'd argue that their direct allies are the same since they involved themselve to defend OV.

The alliances which followed oA clauses into this war are fighting an offensive war.

so.. RoK, DICE and Avalche are at offensive war and the rest are in a defensive war? Since we're only discussing NPO here those are the only ones I can think of right now that activated oA clauses to declare on NPO. Even with that definition it's pretty far from the whole karma side.

[enderland]

Kindly elaborate, dear sir.

You don't see it?

...

Ok. So Ordo Verde is one of the PERFECT alliances for an NPO led war to start against to remove opposition. Their ties are directly to Vanguard, GOD, and VE (and as a result Superfriends). Vanguard and GOD are not exactly loved alliances amongst the majority of Karma in my experience.

Any offensive action that is taken against OV therefore brings those alliances in almost for sure, and it also means that any alliance that declares in support of SF/Vanguad/GOD/VE is using a chaining treaty (or two or three if not using an oA/A clause), something that many alliances specifically write into treaties now to prevent from happening. Plus in quite a few cases alliances would be indirectly defending one of the above alliances.

NPO hoped to take out Ordo Verde, VE, Vanguard and SF with this attack. There is not an alliance I am aware of that would be more logical for an attack at the time than OV for NPO to try to remove opposing alliances.

It's not a coincident that OV was picked to be hit first.

[Leigon]

Actually Vanguard is a member of CnG. So they were also brought in. I think NPO miscalculated on Citadel though. They thought they would fight with them or stay neutral. And without Citadel this would have been a much tougher war for karma.

edit: grammar

Edited June 6, 2009 by Leigon

[Roadie]

You don't see it?

...

Ok. So Ordo Verde is one of the PERFECT alliances for an NPO led war to start against to remove opposition. Their ties are directly to Vanguard, GOD, and VE (and as a result Superfriends). Vanguard and GOD are not exactly loved alliances amongst the majority of Karma in my experience.

Any offensive action that is taken against OV therefore brings those alliances in almost for sure, and it also means that any alliance that declares in support of SF/Vanguad/GOD/VE is using a chaining treaty (or two or three if not using an oA/A clause), something that many alliances specifically write into treaties now to prevent from happening. Plus in quite a few cases alliances would be indirectly defending one of the above alliances.

NPO hoped to take out Ordo Verde, VE, Vanguard and SF with this attack. There is not an alliance I am aware of that would be more logical for an attack at the time than OV for NPO to try to remove opposing alliances.

It's not a coincident that OV was picked to be hit first.

Haflinger could tell it wasn't a coincindence way back when OV spied on NPO.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Roadie

[der_ko]

Haflinger could tell it wasn't a coincindence way back when OV spied on NPO.

Was that around the same time Mhawk spied on OV?

[enderland]

Haflinger could tell it wasn't a coincindence way back when OV spied on NPO.

Ah right, NPO's CB factory that conveniently generated CBs for them, also known as Blackstone.

Do you actually think that OV spied on NPO? There are a lot of threads you should read if so, like, the logs that "prove spying" for starters.

[KinKiac]

If an alliance declares war on another alliance without being attacked, it is an offensive war. Almost all of Karma declared war without ever being attacked, they were aggressors. Basic logic would prove my point there I really don't see anything to argue against.

If you say that an attack on alliance is considered to be an attack on their allies as well, then Hegemony would also be the defenders as we were involved in the war based on the attacks on the NPO.

-

No not at all. You and any other alliance who fought with the NPO were and are supporting an aggressive war. Do not try and tell me or anyone else here that you guys were in a defensive war. Nice try. Im dont trying to argue defensive offensive BS. It really doesnt matter nor does it change anything except for maybe PR. Stop trying to win PR for NPO. They are getting their just desserts, end of story.

It would be. Fortunately that's not what I said.

I said, a victorious defender ends the war when the security of the target is assured.

The thing is, many of the Karma alliances are not "assured" that NPO is still not a threat. It doesnt matter if you or anyone else agree or not that NPO is still a threat, Karma apparently believes so and is acting accordingly.

I am only obsessed with the spreading of truth. I used it to support my arguments, but it was still entirely based on logic and facts. Honestly it doesn't matter much.

Truth like that RoK is the one demanding peace mode nations come out? Thats not truth. Again, nice try.

You don't see it?

...

Ok. So Ordo Verde is one of the PERFECT alliances for an NPO led war to start against to remove opposition. Their ties are directly to Vanguard, GOD, and VE (and as a result Superfriends). Vanguard and GOD are not exactly loved alliances amongst the majority of Karma in my experience.

Any offensive action that is taken against OV therefore brings those alliances in almost for sure, and it also means that any alliance that declares in support of SF/Vanguad/GOD/VE is using a chaining treaty (or two or three if not using an oA/A clause), something that many alliances specifically write into treaties now to prevent from happening. Plus in quite a few cases alliances would be indirectly defending one of the above alliances.

NPO hoped to take out Ordo Verde, VE, Vanguard and SF with this attack. There is not an alliance I am aware of that would be more logical for an attack at the time than OV for NPO to try to remove opposing alliances.

It's not a coincident that OV was picked to be hit first.

THIS ^^^^^^^^

This war was never about OV and NPO. It was about NPO wanting to take out OV and all of OV's allies. NPO is not dumb, they knew that this would escalate. Well, they miscalculated, and they are losing.

Haflinger could tell it wasn't a coincindence way back when OV spied on NPO.

You mean back when TPF spied on OV?

Someone else beat me to the punch but Ill say it anyway.

[Jipps]

No not at all. You and any other alliance who fought with the NPO were and are supporting an aggressive war. Do not try and tell me or anyone else here that you guys were in a defensive war. Nice try. Im dont trying to argue defensive offensive BS. It really doesnt matter nor does it change anything except for maybe PR. Stop trying to win PR for NPO. They are getting their just desserts, end of story.

If I was supporting them in an aggrssive war, wouldn't I have attacked OV also? I, and almost every other Hegemony alliance came into this war for defense. That is the truth, fact. It's not about PR, it is about setting the record straight which you obviously can't handle.

Truth like that RoK is the one demanding peace mode nations come out? Thats not truth. Again, nice try.

I made an error there and corrected it in a later post. They are one of the alliances doing it, so it wasn't entirely false just that they aren't the sole alliance. I really don't think anyone expected everything I say to be perfect, thats just absurd.

[KinKiac]

If I was supporting them in an aggrssive war, wouldn't I have attacked OV also? I, and almost every other Hegemony alliance came into this war for defense. That is the truth, fact. It's not about PR, it is about setting the record straight which you obviously can't handle.

I made an error there and corrected it in a later post. They are one of the alliances doing it, so it wasn't entirely false just that they aren't the sole alliance. I really don't think anyone expected everything I say to be perfect, thats just absurd.

You are still supporting an aggressive war. NPO's war is aggressive. If you attack in support of that war, you are now engaged in an aggressive war. Anyone fighting with NPO are aggressors and anyone fighting in defense of OV and its allies are fighting a defensive war. Its all about who started it. There is only one war, many fronts, but still one war. NPO started it, therefore they and anyone supporting them are aggressors right along side of them. You can not say you are defending them when they started it. You are supporting their aggressive war, not defending them.

You did not have to attack OV to be supporting the NPO in the war they started, you just have to fight on their side. Just because you are losing doesnt make it defensive, this has been said time and time again. If NPO was winning would still consider yourself to be fighting a defensive war? Who's winning and who's losing doesnt change whether or not you are part of the aggressors or the defenders, it just doesnt work that way.

[Cataduanes]

The New Pacific Order should be given peace and be allowed to rebuild, to do otherwise would be too cruel and stump to their previous levels. The New Pacific Order is not inherently evil; we were actually seeing progress in the weeks before the war. However if they choose to continue the same policies of old, I am confident the community will see it and act on it. Just as I attempting to do so now with the current philosophies of Karma.

I cannot agree with you on this, i respect the 'Karma' sentiment you and others represent but to allow Pacifica the benefit of the doubt would be folly of the highest order, perhaps that makes me as bad as the very people that i have fought at times since 2006 but thats the way i feel.

[Paint Your Target]

I think a point missing here is NPOs lack of allies. I don't see how they can get revenge without a significant amount of allies. Something that isn't likely to happen on a time frame short enough to make what the reps are matter.

Meaning even if Karma does knock a few more mil NS and get at several billions of that money, or get it in reps. The time it takes them to rebuild would be shorter than the time it takes them to get enough allies to accomplish what is trying to be avoided with these terms.

Edit: Another thing I wonder is if enough attention is being payed to the possibility of creating a monster. Yes, I know the claim is that they already are one, which I won't argue. What would concern me if I was in Karma shoes, is what mindset I'm forming in NPOs newest members. Those being from the NPO Applicant AA. This is their first rodeo here in CN and I would think this will leave a very bad taste in their mouth.

this made me laugh in several ways:

NPOs lack of allies? at the end of GW1 they didnt have a single ally that wasnt Polar, which at that time was arguably mainly NPO ex members anyway. They came back from that to establish the most deadly military bloc CN would see for over a year. NPO had, and still has, the funds to build a mini war machine from scratch, aiding them and securing their support and loyalty.

I also think Karma is willing to risk a 'bad taste' in a few dozen NPO applicants- my experience of fighting little NPOers during this war was that they didnt know what the hell was going on and were grateful to be let out of the fighting.

[Paint Your Target]

I cannot agree with you on this, i respect the 'Karma' sentiment you and others represent but to allow Pacifica the benefit of the doubt would be folly of the highest order, perhaps that makes me as bad as the very people that i have fought at times since 2006 but thats the way i feel.

We were there when they walked before Cata I dont think either of us fancies the idea of 2 years more of hegemony for the 'benefit of the doubt'.

PYT.

[Yggdrazil]

No amount of e-lawyering will change the fact that if you are taking up a defensive slot you are the aggressor.However offensive action is certainly good defense.

[Teriethien]

No amount of e-lawyering will change the fact that if you are taking up a defensive slot you are the aggressor.However offensive action is certainly good defense.

No, all it takes is logic.

[enderland]

No amount of e-lawyering will change the fact that if you are taking up a defensive slot you are the aggressor.However offensive action is certainly good defense.

What do you mean?

[Tulafaras]

No amount of e-lawyering will change the fact that if you are taking up a defensive slot you are the aggressor.However offensive action is certainly good defense.

No amount of completly beside the point facts will change the argument.

We are not talking about individual nations, we are talking about alliances. Even the NPO who has gotten hammered lately have declared a few offensive wars in the last few days.

(ooc) By your argument England was an agressor in WW2, since they sent a force to counterattack the germans to help their french allies, but yet i doubt anyone will try to argue that their actions were on the defensive side of the second world war(/ooc)

[Haflinger]

Haflinger could tell it wasn't a coincindence way back when OV spied on NPO.

I would just take this moment to point out that I haven't commented publicly on whether the original attacks that started this war were based on good decision-making or not.

[Bob Janova]

No amount of e-lawyering will change the fact that if you are taking up a defensive slot you are the aggressor.

Um no. An alliance that is declared on will also fight 'offensive' wars if it is playing the war game right, that doesn't stop it being a defensive operation.

But honestly, offence and defence is irrelevant in a war like this. It's only important for treaty activations, but when everyone decides that this is a war they must fight then it doesn't really make a difference.

[bbrownso]

Um no. An alliance that is declared on will also fight 'offensive' wars if it is playing the war game right, that doesn't stop it being a defensive operation.

But honestly, offence and defence is irrelevant in a war like this. It's only important for treaty activations, but when everyone decides that this is a war they must fight then it doesn't really make a difference.

Come on Bob, that distinction is irrelevant to treaty activations in almost every way. The days of following a treaty to the letter are over. Offensive/Defensive is mostly semantics that are easily ignored depending on the case. Look at how people in the last few years of "dropped" allies found to have done wrong.

I think we've all seen how things work now. You sign some MDPs or higher and if one of your treaty partners isn't worth the trouble; you ignore the treaty and whatever obligations it carries and just don't bother and stay neutral or you jump to using on the other MDPs/higher to do whatever you want.

As for peace, Karma is more likely to drag this war on out of the fear they feel of a NPO resurgence than end it quickly. Over 200 million NS and they can't get over the fact that NPO might come back to make them pay for this war; that's probably more impressive than people are giving them credit for.

[Roadie]

this made me laugh in several ways:

NPOs lack of allies? at the end of GW1 they didnt have a single ally that wasnt Polar, which at that time was arguably mainly NPO ex members anyway. They came back from that to establish the most deadly military bloc CN would see for over a year. NPO had, and still has, the funds to build a mini war machine from scratch, aiding them and securing their support and loyalty.

I also think Karma is willing to risk a 'bad taste' in a few dozen NPO applicants- my experience of fighting little NPOers during this war was that they didnt know what the hell was going on and were grateful to be let out of the fighting.

Actually, it's more like a couple hundred NPOers. And that they didn't know what the fighting was about is part of the potential issue. Most members of any alliance don't visit the forums at all. Especially nubes. Given they don't know anything about the politics behind these things, it would only be human nature to carry some anger towards those that attacked them.

Edit: Evidence of that can be seen in Karma.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Roadie