End of Terms: NPO and Beyond

[Jipps]

You still haven't addressed my points, unfortunately; the majority has decided to reverse the manner in which certain practices are carried out on Planet Bob, do you particularly feel as though if the war ended today Pacifica and its allies would completely change their methods?

Sorry, must have passed it up.

The crimes are staggering, I know. I would definately support apologies and admittance of the crimes they have done over the years. Even oaths not to repeat would be great.

I know this war has had an effect on me and many others on the side of the Hegemony without reps of any kind. In fact, it was the rather leinient terms that made me change my views drastically. Whether this hold true for NPO I'm not sure, but I'm hopeful.

[Jipps]

-snip-

You have every right to be suspicous of my motives, but finally being on the losing side changes your viewpoint. You can look at my pledge at the bottom at the page as maybe some compensation for the timing, but I hope you hold me to my word.

Yet it hurts the defeated far more to be kept in war than to pay reps. I guess I just don't really understand how you can denounce reparations on the basis of timeline alone. To me its one thing to say that you find reparations unnecessary and morally apprehensive, and another altogether to say that punishment is fine if its done in a way that costs all sides far more.

A better position to take, then, might to be adovate for proportionality, as several Karma-aligned individuals have voiced.

There would already be a war for any terms to take place, I am suggesting that the war be looked at as enough punishment, especially in these beatdown wars.

I am not asking for the prolonging of wars.

[Fort Pitt]

They are also clearly ignoring the mercy they were granted and are instead harping upon their ally's plight and trying to spin PR to make it more likely for their allies to receive lighter terms.

I have not seen this at all, please point it out for me. Just because they believe NPO should get light terms doesn't mean they are just trying to put one in for their allies.

If all of these posts about lighter terms came up over the last 3 years in previous wars, I'd have no issue. If they came up after the war, I'd have no issue. But the timing of NPO and all of its allies suddenly deciding harsh terms are bad is just too convenient. It reeks of opportunistic PR spin, and I refuse to believe any sincerity in any of it at this point in time.

One problem with that first line, the last 3 years, NPO controlled almost all alliances in the world in some way, making the issues people had almost non-existent in public areas. What does timing have to do with it? I'm sure most of NPO's allies had thought that NPO's terms would be something like a few billion, but when they saw IRON get 1,000,000,000 + tech as reps, they knew NPO would get worse, and when the increasing reparations for peace mode nations was added, they were pissed.

Please think before you post.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Fort Pitt

[kotic]

NPO should pay reps plain and simple, and i am not saying this strickly on the basies of being from RoK, im saying this on the basies of everthing that NPO has ever done. one would be nieve to think that if NPO was giving White Peace that they wouldnt exploit that in some way or another. maybe not right after but somewhere down the line they would. what makes you think that NPO deserves such a thing like White Peace exactly? why do you believe that a new era would beginning if they were given white peace? its easy to argue that NPO would be given white peace and then 8 months down the line another war breaks out and NPO is at the for front. come end of the war NPO demains that the loseing side pays huge amounts of reps. they learned nothing. NPO was shown mercy during GW1 and look where we are now.

if memory serves me correctly and i believe it does. there was one incident that i can recall in my old alliance where an NPO nation attacked one of our guys our guy attacked back and NPO claims it was are fault and demains 9 mill in rep or disband the alliance. white peace you say? no i dont think so. if you wanted a new era to infold all of BOB you shoulda been preachin durring GW1. maybe then NPO would be differnt. who knows

[Angrator]

Another inconsequential post. Next time, please take care to read what others have posted before adding to the heap.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1556741

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1558417

When the voice of karma speaks, it is wise to stop talking and listen.

It is not the duty nor the goal of Karma to change the world. It is the goal of Karma to win the war. The disparity of terms with respect to the alliances they were offered to is aimed to help win this war, whether it is on the PR front or the conventional battlefield. The terms offered are to keep the proposed enemy down, so that the victory can be lasting, and any terms proposed or strategies followed between now and the end of the Karma War will be to win the Karma War.

You lost the war, stop pretending to have any sort of influence on how it ends. Your "conversion" to white peace being given out to enemies would be much more convincing if you said it over the last 3 years. But you didn't. You said nothing against it then, so be quiet now. This is just PR spin, plain and simple. Every single person against harsh reps was jumping on the bandwagon then, and now they continue to jump on the bandwagon. I doubt that most of them have an original thought in their brains. They just lap up the propaganda feed to them by you know who. I would prefer if you just said thank you for Karma's mercy and just went on your way. If you want to help them, then start walking the talk and put your nation behind your mouth.

[Fort Pitt]

You lost the war, stop pretending to have any sort of influence on how it ends. Your "conversion" to white peace being given out to enemies would be much more convincing if you said it over the last 3 years. But you didn't. You said nothing against it then, so be quiet now. This is just PR spin, plain and simple. Every single person against harsh reps was jumping on the bandwagon then, and now they continue to jump on the bandwagon. I doubt that most of them have an original thought in their brains. They just lap up the propaganda feed to them by you know who. I would prefer if you just said thank you for Karma's mercy and just went on your way. If you want to help them, then start walking the talk and put your nation behind your mouth.

I will just guess you're Seerow's backup or something of that sort, since you basically just copied what he posted and reworded it.

Note the underlined parts please. That sort of posting is either a sign of inexperience or basically having nothing to support you. Meaning you and your 'buddies' just can't take that most if not all what Jipps has kindly said is true, and therefore resort to 'I'm bigger than you' tactics. These tactics may not be exactly the same as NPO's version, but it is in words rather than force.

So please type something worth reading before you post, just attempting to bully an alliance is not worthy.

[shahenshah]

A very good read Jipps.

[Jipps]

NPO should pay reps plain and simple, and i am not saying this strickly on the basies of being from RoK, im saying this on the basies of everthing that NPO has ever done. one would be nieve to think that if NPO was giving White Peace that they wouldnt exploit that in some way or another. maybe not right after but somewhere down the line they would. what makes you think that NPO deserves such a thing like White Peace exactly? why do you believe that a new era would beginning if they were given white peace? its easy to argue that NPO would be given white peace and then 8 months down the line another war breaks out and NPO is at the for front. come end of the war NPO demains that the loseing side pays huge amounts of reps. they learned nothing. NPO was shown mercy during GW1 and look where we are now.

if memory serves me correctly and i believe it does. there was one incident that i can recall in my old alliance where an NPO nation attacked one of our guys our guy attacked back and NPO claims it was are fault and demains 9 mill in rep or disband the alliance. white peace you say? no i dont think so. if you wanted a new era to infold all of BOB you shoulda been preachin durring GW1. maybe then NPO would be differnt. who knows

So you feel that this hghly destructive war isn't enough of a punishment? That the New Pacific Order needs to pay huge reps to alliances like Ragnarok who took part in some of those same crimes?

If that is seriously what you think is the best way to change the New Pacific Order, then I guess I can't do much to change your mind. But through this essay and my own personal experiences during this war I would hope you realize the power of peaceful gestures as well. If NPO ever betrayed that white peace that was given in good faith, I myself would jump up in arms with you.

A white peace stand here would be the most powerful stance against harsh terms we have ever seen, it just wouldn't be acceptable anymore. I really think we need to take advantage of this opportunity.

Another inconsequential post. Next time, please take care to read what others have posted before adding to the heap.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1556741

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1558417

When the voice of karma speaks, it is wise to stop talking and listen.

If you had actually read the threads you linked, you would see that I was involved in heated, inconclusive debates for pages. This thread is almost a topical response to those threads.

You lost the war, stop pretending to have any sort of influence on how it ends. Your "conversion" to white peace being given out to enemies would be much more convincing if you said it over the last 3 years. But you didn't. You said nothing against it then, so be quiet now. This is just PR spin, plain and simple. Every single person against harsh reps was jumping on the bandwagon then, and now they continue to jump on the bandwagon. I doubt that most of them have an original thought in their brains. They just lap up the propaganda feed to them by you know who. I would prefer if you just said thank you for Karma's mercy and just went on your way. If you want to help them, then start walking the talk and put your nation behind your mouth.

I was quiet about the injustices of the past and I rgret it, but so have most of the people in Karma at some point.

Why would I condemn the actions of the alliance I am supposedly making a PR post for? If you actually read this thread, you might realize otherwise.

I would put my nation behind it, but that is against my surrender terms.

[Angrator]

I will just guess you're Seerow's backup or something of that sort, since you basically just copied what he posted and reworded it.

Note the underlined parts please. That sort of posting is either a sign of inexperience or basically having nothing to support you. Meaning you and your 'buddies' just can't take that most if not all what Jipps has kindly said is true, and therefore resort to 'I'm bigger than you' tactics. These tactics may not be exactly the same as NPO's version, but it is in words rather than force.

So please type something worth reading before you post, just attempting to bully an alliance is not worthy.

The reason that the Karma side is beginning to sound similar is because the arguments against it are identical. They are completely the same, taken from the same playbook with no thought or originality. It is mere sophistry and parroting out the same ideas over and over again. It's still the same lame duck idea no matter who says it or how many times it is said. Well, I have news for you. Those arguments have been disproven time and time again by men much smarter than I. Please take the time to read the posts that I have quoted and you'll realize some of the absurdity of what you said.

I could take the time to refute, point by point, all of the ideas that I have heard, but as I mentioned they have been done many times before by those more talented.

[Jipps]

The reason that the Karma side is beginning to sound similar is because the arguments against it are identical. They are completely the same, taken from the same playbook with no thought or originality. It is mere sophistry and parroting out the same ideas over and over again. It's still the same lame duck idea no matter who says it or how many times it is said. Well, I have news for you. Those arguments have been disproven time and time again by men much smarter than I. Please take the time to read the posts that I have quoted and you'll realize some of the absurdity of what you said.

I could take the time to refute, point by point, all of the ideas that I have heard, but as I mentioned they have been done many times before by those more talented.

Please, where are these magical posts you speak of?

They aren't the ones you posted, those both had many flaws that I pointed out if you read beyond the biased OP. Read up on my posts and maybe you will understand a bit more.

[Yggdrazil]

Those of us on the Hegemony side realized the stiff reparations will be given the NPO. The problem; lack of specificity by the opposing side, only vague subjective suggestions on what NPO needs to attain peace.

[youwish959]

I like what your saying, but disagree that white peace should be the only option.

[Jipps]

I like what your saying, but disagree that white peace should be the only option.

Forced tech deals, apologies, banning of the Moldavi doctrine, and oaths not to repeat the same practices all seem like great alternatives.

[youwish959]

Forced tech deals, apologies, banning of the Moldavi doctrine, and oaths not to repeat the same practices all seem like great alternatives.

You say you want this trend to continue in the future, however you only give one for sure viable option for other alliances to use on against opponents who are not NPO, because the Moldavi doctrine and oaths won't necessarily be relevant in future wars.

Now my question to you Jipps. Where were you complaining loudly on the OWF when GATO and her allies were attacked or when Polaris was being beat down for the unforeseeable future? What happened when your alliance took part in the beat down on STA and they were held their indefinitely wanting several key members expelled? Both of those beat down wars your alliance partook in, no? And both of those wars went on for a very long time, similar to this war, no? Did the GATO war not go on for longer?

Edited June 2, 2009 by youwish959

[GemStone]

o/ Jipps!!!!!

Well said!!! Being on the losing side of a war does open ones eyes considerably, I am thankful we got merciful light terms, that do help us rebuild. I actually never followed the politics of CN much in the past, nor the harsh terms and reps of the past, but the recent war has opened my eyes. I do regret having accepted any of those reps/terms as well. Ignorance is no excuse, so therefore I don't have one. We all know power corrupts and (seeming) absolute power is worse. I don't think NPO should get off scott free, I do hope that mercy will be shown and appropriate reps and terms are given and not a reoccurance of the crimes that have been given to others. NPO has treated us well and are great allies, even though many of you don't know that side of them. I don't know what the future holds, but I hope for a fairer CN. Take this as you will, I speak the truth, from my heart. I will say no more.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Lady Blackrose

[Jipps]

Now my question to you Jipps. Where were you complaining loudly on the OWF when GATO and her allies were attacked or when Polaris was being beat down for the unforeseeable future? What happened when your alliance took part in the beat down on STA and they were held their indefinitely wanting several key members expelled? Both of those beat down wars your alliance partook in, no? And both of those wars went on for a very long time, similar to this war, no? Did the GATO war not go on for longer?

I was not in She Said She Was 18 during the time they atacked USN in the GATO war, I wasn't involved in that war or CN at all at the time period.

As for STA, we were still a protectorate with little choices. I regret it and not that it makes much difference, but we were planning to give white peace to STA with DefCon until TPF said otherwise. However, many alliances that speak out against the past injustices that they were once a part of. I do not pretend to play innocent, but people change. You were once part of TPF for while, I'm sure you are not clean of any ill deeds. I have really had my eyes opened in this war, in part ot the light terms we recieved and the bond that enabled. It was my personal expeciences that partly motivated me to post this, not some PR spin.

I have pledged to follow these principles in the future and I think that is what counts more than any past wrong doings.

[Strykewolf]

Good read, Jipps. After the fight I've gotten to know some of you folks and I think you're good folks. NPO will likely have reps...But, it remains to be seen what they are.

The reason that the Karma side is beginning to sound similar is because the arguments against it are identical. They are completely the same, taken from the same playbook with no thought or originality. It is mere sophistry and parroting out the same ideas over and over again. It's still the same lame duck idea no matter who says it or how many times it is said. Well, I have news for you. Those arguments have been disproven time and time again by men much smarter than I. Please take the time to read the posts that I have quoted and you'll realize some of the absurdity of what you said.

I could take the time to refute, point by point, all of the ideas that I have heard, but as I mentioned they have been done many times before by those more talented.

On the bolded part. Perhaps because whichever side you are on...it's still wrong? And for the meat of the statement... Meh; I'll wait to see what comes out of all of this.

Jipps spoke his mind, and it is well said.

I disagree with a couple points overall...but, well said none-the-less.

[Fighter26]

Making Karma step up is always fun and fair based on their justifications. o/ Jipps and our friends at SSSW18

[Teriethien]

You have every right to be suspicous of my motives, but finally being on the losing side changes your viewpoint. You can look at my pledge at the bottom at the page as maybe some compensation for the timing, but I hope you hold me to my word.

There would already be a war for any terms to take place, I am suggesting that the war be looked at as enough punishment, especially in these beatdown wars.

I am not asking for the prolonging of wars.

This I can agree with. I sincerely hope that more on the hegemony's side (and others) would reflect on their previously held beliefs as you appeared to have.

[neneko]

Read my pledge at the bottom of the OP.

Oh my you promise that you mean it unlike all the other hegemony people that suddenly realised that white peace is the only moral option. That changes everything.

The damage has been fairly one sided in this war.

Go look at the lowest alliance gains list or at the graphs of the karma alliances fighting and then tell me again that they havn't taken substantial damage in this war. I think it was today that I saw someone from tpf brag about how the alliances attacking tpf had lost more score than tpf had.

By continuing those practices I can only assume they agree with those in the past.

I meant to say that Karma would be continuing the practices of the NPO and friends in the past, as i think I made clear int he OP.

I've stated this three times now and it just doesn't seem to get through. Things are not that black and white. If karma alliances want to give reps as punishment for crimes it doesn't mean that they automatically is guilty of every crime that NPO commited. You're making a pretty big leap in your reasoning when you assume that.

So you feel that this hghly destructive war isn't enough of a punishment? That the New Pacific Order needs to pay huge reps to alliances like Ragnarok who took part in some of those same crimes?

If that is seriously what you think is the best way to change the New Pacific Order, then I guess I can't do much to change your mind. But through this essay and my own personal experiences during this war I would hope you realize the power of peaceful gestures as well. If NPO ever betrayed that white peace that was given in good faith, I myself would jump up in arms with you.

I can't belive I need to say this. Karma is not responsible for NPOs future actions. I for one have no doubt they'll stay in their old tracks no matter what happends in this war. Karma is not responsible for changing NPO though. It's hopefully something they'll do themselves otherwise we'll either have this war all over again or they'll be able to retain enough political power again to climb back up to their old throne.

The 'lesson' you people crying for white peace supposedly learned when fighting this war will be gone as quickly as it came when you get a chance to gain the upper hand again. Do you honestly think anyone actually belive that the timing for your moral awakening is coincidental? That your realisation that karma alliances was wrong to accept reps and that everyone in the hegemony deserve white peace is not just a desperate PR move to get your alliances lighter terms?

You people speak with a forked tongues. The actions of alliances after this war will speak volumes, your sudden moral outcry in the midst of war, not so much.

edit:

Making Karma step up is always fun and fair based on their justifications. o/ Jipps and our friends at SSSW18

What justifications? Did we need to justify to defend our allies? No matter what you want to twist this to now this war started as a defensive one from karmas side. You speak as if you've learned something yet betwen every line you only seek to throw dirt at karma. Your true purpose shines through.

Edited June 2, 2009 by neneko

[Sooner]

Harsh Terms are Inherently Bad

Clauses that infringe on an alliances sovergeinity are absolutely no better. These include: changing team colors, cancellations of treaties, military limits, economic limits, leadership change, and other tricky devices similar to these. No one should enforce acts that limit alliances potential and its sovergeinity, such acts only further cause the loss of communities and loss of game play in general.

Disbandment is obvious I hope.

A scary, popular trend among alliances is to fight wars to get to the terms. Many seem to have lost the idea that war is the punishment for an alliance, not the period of peace afterwards.

Jipps: I suggest you read the old CN forums and look back at May25th, 2007 at the announcement from VE. NPO gave us those exact terms and when people cried out, no one did anything except cry and call NPO and GGA both ban-able names, when we rode off into the sunset. Any time NPO gave those terms and people said something, NPO never gave it a second thought. All NPO has ever known is giving out harsh terms. That being said, VE has and never will give terms that inherently infringe on an alliance's sovereignty such as viceroys, changing of color spheres, and my least personal favorite, disbandment.

Now back then, I will say that NPO nations were honorable then on May 24th and May 25th, they only declared on VE nations and never actually launched offensive attacks except on those that had nukes. But that was the only time they actually showed honor and integrity. Granted, they could have prevented the war and said everyone needed to sit down and talk, but they "felt" pressured by their WUT allies in GGA and GOONS to destroy us. We all knew NPO didn't want to declare on us but they did little to stop it.

You won't see me crying over their lost infrastructure or weeping at their nations that left. I won't shed a tear for them. And I doubt anyone else will either. The only ones who should be crying is the membership of NPO for their leader Moo using a very false CB to declare on Ordo Verde. I hope that NPO's leadership will learn from this and work on their interpersonal skills and that they should have better sources than accepting information that was hacked from an alliance's boards.

[Il Impero Romano]

Those of us on the Hegemony side realized the stiff reparations will be given the NPO. The problem; lack of specificity by the opposing side, only vague subjective suggestions on what NPO needs to attain peace.

Please read the entire 55 page thread in Open World RP, then edit your post.

[Roadie]

Please read the entire 55 page thread in Open World RP, then edit your post.

There are no specifics in that thread.

[Teriethien]

There are no specifics in that thread.

I think the point was that (to Karma) the NPO hasn't asked for terms.

[Seerow]

I have not seen this at all, please point it out for me. Just because they believe NPO should get light terms doesn't mean they are just trying to put one in for their allies.

One problem with that first line, the last 3 years, NPO controlled almost all alliances in the world in some way, making the issues people had almost non-existent in public areas. What does timing have to do with it? I'm sure most of NPO's allies had thought that NPO's terms would be something like a few billion, but when they saw IRON get 1,000,000,000 + tech as reps, they knew NPO would get worse, and when the increasing reparations for peace mode nations was added, they were pissed.

Please think before you post.

You seem to be confusing "Harsh Terms" with "Reparations". It's understandable, because it's the association most people make. However in my second post I said I don't care for reparations in general, and feel there are more interesting ways to punish a nation.

The problem I have is that the OP is implying anything other than White Peace is abhorrent and that terms in general should not exist, which is just silly. I do agree that reparations are just a constantly escalating thing and each war makes them bigger and bigger. However there should be some form of terms in the case of a surrender, and the worse the transgressions of the loser (or perceived transgressions, in CN it's often one and the same), the harder the terms. Harder terms isn't just tossing another billion in reps on.

But you want an example of surrender terms that don't include reps but would likely be among the harshest CN has yet seen? Here you go:

1) All members must have 5 Guerilla Camps, 5 Barracks, 5 Missle Defenses, 5 Satelites, 5 Drydocks, 5 Shipyards, 3 Naval Construction Yards, and 2 Naval Academies. In the event a nation does not have the population necessary to maintain all of these improvements, they must be maintained in the order listed.

2) All members must have maximum military, including soldiers, tanks, cruise missiles, planes, and navy vessels.

3) By the end of terms every member of the alliance with 4000 infrastructure or more have both Agriculture Development Program and FSS

4) The following wonders must be decommissioned for all nations: Anti-Air Defense Network, Disaster Relief Agency, Foreign Airforce Base, Hidden Nuclear Missle Silo, Pentagon, Strategic Defense Initiative, Weapon Research Complex

5) No member may possess a nuclear weapon for the duration of terms

6) All nations must be set to defcon1 and Threat Level 1

7) No aid slot in the alliance may be used for the duration of terms for internal aid, external aid, tech dealing, or donation deals

8) All nations in peace mode as of the end of terms will remain in peace mode until 30 days after terms expire.

Of course with these terms a protectorate would not be needed because against anything short of an all out nuclear assault the alliance would be more than able to defend itself.