Small Analysis of Pacificans in Peace Mode

[DogeWilliam]

I agree though, it is all a bit ridiculous.

I'm not here to judge, but isn't this a bit of the 'ol "taste of your own medicine?" I think a lot of people would call the past treatment of opponents by the NPO ridiculous. Not saying you are complaining about it though.

[Electron Sponge]

Karma hasn't offered any peace terms at all. The peace terms that were discussed before the war were effectively accepted by the NPO, which is when the 'one minute to accept' came in to avoid such a thing. Since then all we have received is 'pre-terms', which work exactly as CRex of Gulo Gulo describes. I agree though, it is all a bit ridiculous.

It doesn't feel so great, does it? At least you've got your collected works on Francoism, though. They can't take those away from you. I'm sure they provide a lot of comfort as you watch years of work be dismantled by former allies.

Perhaps in another six months or so you'll understand what some of us were complaining about. It's not that I support an endless war against NPO at all - far from it. I'd like to see terms offered sooner rather than later, and I'd like to see those terms accepted. You guys knew if you ever took a fall it wouldn't be pleasant though. You can't be surprised at Karma's intransigence.

[flak attack]

The peace terms that were discussed before the war were effectively accepted by the NPO.

And already the lies begin to flow. You're losing your touch, Vlad.

[malazar]

I've been wondering whether or not any of those surrenders and nations abandoning ship were actually doing so in order to escape the war and rebuild their nations outside of peace mode, so that, if the NPO ever does get terms (or more likely, from what has to be the NPO point-of-view, the various Karma alliances simply get bored and give up), they'd be in a strong position to immediately return to the fold and help rebuild.

Honestly, if I was a member of the NPO, I'd have been recommending that as a strategy weeks ago. Since it's a curbstomp anyway, and there's absolutely no way to win, why not make it seem like you're getting hurt worse than you really are, transfer essential resources out of the war so they'll be safe for later rebuilding and recovery, and basically roll over and play possum until your enemy gets bored with poking the corpse?

I have often wondered why that wouldn't be a viable strategy, but surrendering on an individual level has such a negative stigma that for the most part people seem to rather avoid that as a whole even if it would be smart for alliances to advocate their banks or large nations surrendering early. In my alliance we have a zero tolerance surrender policy and I imagine NPO probably has something similar.

Hypothetically, since there is nothing preventing this in the individual surrender terms outside of a possible 30 day POW period without the ability to aid, I wonder what would happen if those top NPO nations all did such a thing. Would then the war come to a close since the peace mode argument would disappear?

[Hiro Nakara]

Keep in peace mode as commented above, it only hurts them. Atleast when they do come out of peace mode, and they will have to knock the old red doctorine on the head They wont be in any fit state to back up there threats

Ohhhh how things change for the better.

o/ NPO

It goes to show you that even 12 mongrel dogs can take a lion down, and this pleases me.

[Essenia]

Guess what that additional penalty is? It's about 50% of your income. For big nations, that means you net virtually no cash. If you have bad trades, you can actually end up paying more in bills then you collect in taxes. Peace mode is very, very damaging for the NPO; their top 40 collectively probably lose at least 300 million each day. The only case in which it makes sense to hide out in peace mode is if their nations don't have sufficient warchests to rebuild after getting knocked around a bit (ZIed). I am willing to bet that is the case.

I've done some quick and dirty calculations and according to them NPO is losing around 450 million every day from every nation on the first page being in peace mode. Not saying that they should come out, that is a very significant number when multipled over a large number of days however.

As for the number taking damage, of the ~160 'WRC Range' nations in NPO before the war has been reduced to about 40, furthermore around 5-6 of those in peace mode are due to failed staggers.

[Roadie]

Especially if you screw up their collections with a well placed DEFCON/Threat change operations.

This doesn't really do much to peace mode nations as they are not going to be on a long sled before collecting due to the PM penalties getting higher as the days go on.

[Virillus]

Your point.

Your point is valid - Having post-war rebuilding nations is very necessary. However, that doesn't change the fact that we want to hurt them, and we can't do that when half their NS is in peace mode. At this point, I'm not overly concerned about how effective their rebuilding efforts will be.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

I'm sorry, where were you when it was GATO or GPA using peace mode again?

At any rate, if you were an economist, you might be familiar with the concept of opportunity cost. Even if they are gaining NS and will continue to do so despite ongoing war, they will gain it much slower than they would in peace.

The logical consequences of this is that if they want peace they are better off getting serious about negotiating peace sooner instead of later. If that's not happening it can only indicate they really expect those fighting them to get tired of it and give them what they want sooner rather than later as well. Face it, if they fight as long as FAN did, and then get white peace, economically speaking they still would have been better off bringing all the PM nations in and paying reps instead.

[Virillus]

I'm sorry, where were you when it was GATO or GPA using peace mode again?

At any rate, if you were an economist, you might be familiar with the concept of opportunity cost. Even if they are gaining NS and will continue to do so despite ongoing war, they will gain it much slower than they would in peace.

The logical consequences of this is that if they want peace they are better off getting serious about negotiating peace sooner instead of later. If that's not happening it can only indicate they really expect those fighting them to get tired of it and give them what they want sooner rather than later as well. Face it, if they fight as long as FAN did, and then get white peace, economically speaking they still would have been better off bringing all the PM nations in and paying reps instead.

This man is wise.

[mhawk]

I think you got that round the wrong way.

And it's rather simple, really. They come out of peace mode, fight the war they started, and accept the surrender terms, and they will be out of this war relatively soon. They get a chance to pay off reparations and begin reconstructing much quicker. On the other hand, they're stuck in a drawn-out conflict that lasts several months, and face surrender terms that will halt their reconstruction for quite some time on top of that.

It's odd you claim an alliance that has lost 71% of it's NS has not fought a war, or to say that having 12% of its original NS in peacemode is somehow hiding from consequences? What are you really saying by fight the war, do you want their sanction gone, or their ability to get nations out of bill lock?

[CRexx]

Your point is valid - Having post-war rebuilding nations is very necessary. However, that doesn't change the fact that we want to hurt them, and we can't do that when half their NS is in peace mode. At this point, I'm not overly concerned about how effective their rebuilding efforts will be.

Your point is equally valid. We've both been around long enough and fought in enough wars to know you want the other guy's banks / nations he'll use to rebuild post wars. You guys would have to be stupid not to target those banks. I just get annoyed when other members of the community fail to understand the basic principles of military command. Protect the guys that will rebuild you, kill theirs.

It will be interesting to see what gives here and who does what to meet their objective.

[Sylar]

economically speaking they still would have been better off bringing all the PM nations in and paying reps instead.

problem with this is that when they do it karma will probably just keep fighting them lol

and any terms they get will be horrendous.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

problem with this is that when they do it karma will probably just keep fighting them lol

and any terms they get will be horrendous.

I can assure you any terms they get will be entirely deserved.

Karma hasn't offered any peace terms at all. The peace terms that were discussed before the war were effectively accepted by the NPO, which is when the 'one minute to accept' came in to avoid such a thing. Since then all we have received is 'pre-terms', which work exactly as CRex of Gulo Gulo describes. I agree though, it is all a bit ridiculous.

As others have said, it's too early for the NPO to start lying about history, this only happened like a month ago Vlad. You'll have to wait until there's a fresh supply of noobs before you try the whole changing history route you're famous for.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Shodemofi

[Shodemofi-NPO]

Woah, didn't realize this was the same thread as before, combining posts. Delete please mods.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Shodemofi

[Nizzle]

It's odd you claim an alliance that has lost 71% of it's NS has not fought a war, or to say that having 12% of its original NS in peacemode is somehow hiding from consequences? What are you really saying by fight the war, do you want their sanction gone, or their ability to get nations out of bill lock?

They're out for more than blood, it seems at times. It's rather unfortunate that the idea of "enforcing justice" has strayed so far from it's original goal.

[jimbacher]

I find this funny that some of you don't think the NPO upper tiers have suffered enough. There are now only 37 NPO nations above 50k NS. That isn't a hell of a lot. Some statistics shown below.

#PM--250-------------PM NS--4578022.932-----------PM Infra--797102.9-----------PM Tech--250409.33

#Total--765-----------Total NS--7,041,917-----------Total Infra--1,047,016---------Total Tech--501,057

%--------------------------%---------------------------------------%--------------------------%

0.326797386-------------0.650110323-------------0.761309187--------------------------0.499762163

515 nations outisde of peace mode account for a total of 2,463,894 NS. That means that the average non PM pacifica nation has a WHOPPING 4784 NS. Fact---you want reps, you need banks to pay them off. I understand some of you want to really hurt pacifica, but as you can see this has already been done. The average non peace-mode pacifican has 485 infra left!!!.

[Newhotness]

I don't think the world will remain politically unified enough to contain the NPO as FAN was for an extended period of time.

I dont think it will need to be. Taking into consideration how small the NPO will be when this is all over, if they finally do get peace, it wont take as big of a coalition to bring them down. Maybe one or 2 sanctioned alliances will do the trick. or one of the smaller blocs with 3 or 4 alliances can do it on their own without involving everyone else

[Audran]

They're out for more than blood, it seems at times. It's rather unfortunate that the idea of "enforcing justice" has strayed so far from it's original goal.

We just want to make sure that everyone takes their lumps.

[Essenia]

So what you're basically saying is the Emperor, IOs, and select top end nations will be the only ones left that really matter.

Basically, previous status quo minus cannon fodder.

Well, yes, the largest and most senior nations in NPO are the most likely to remain in the alliance. Not a very shocking fact.

[Newhotness]

Guess what that additional penalty is? It's about 50% of your income. For big nations, that means you net virtually no cash. If you have bad trades, you can actually end up paying more in bills then you collect in taxes. Peace mode is very, very damaging for the NPO; their top 40 collectively probably lose at least 300 million each day. The only case in which it makes sense to hide out in peace mode is if their nations don't have sufficient warchests to rebuild after getting knocked around a bit (ZIed). I am willing to bet that is the case.

Eventually those nations will have no choice but to come out of peacemode. with the effects of PM on happiness they will have to collect because if they stay in PM too long, their chest will run out and they will be bill locked and deep in the hole and that would be extremely counter productive because when they do finally get peace, they wll have to worry about getting those nations out of bill lock which will take up a lot of money and slots AND worry about the reps they owe

[o ya baby]

It's odd you claim an alliance that has lost 71% of it's NS has not fought a war, or to say that having 12% of its original NS in peacemode is somehow hiding from consequences? What are you really saying by fight the war, do you want their sanction gone, or their ability to get nations out of bill lock?

They deserve it, don't ya think? I'd HATE to see our awesome PIAT partners off of the sanction list...buttttt...

[youwish959]

They deserve it, don't ya think? I'd HATE to see our awesome PIAT partners off of the sanction list...buttttt...

What the hell is the point of that PIAT if you don't treat NPO like allies ? I know if I was NPO, I'd of canceled it long ago.

[Hydro]

I find this funny that some of you don't think the NPO upper tiers have suffered enough. There are now only 37 NPO nations above 50k NS. That isn't a hell of a lot. Some statistics shown below.

#PM--250-------------PM NS--4578022.932-----------PM Infra--797102.9-----------PM Tech--250409.33

#Total--765-----------Total NS--7,041,917-----------Total Infra--1,047,016---------Total Tech--501,057

%--------------------------%---------------------------------------%--------------------------%

0.326797386-------------0.650110323-------------0.761309187--------------------------0.499762163

515 nations outisde of peace mode account for a total of 2,463,894 NS. That means that the average non PM pacifica nation has a WHOPPING 4784 NS. Fact---you want reps, you need banks to pay them off. I understand some of you want to really hurt pacifica, but as you can see this has already been done. The average non peace-mode pacifican has 485 infra left!!!.

Assuming every one of those nations were to have a disaster aid relief wonder, that means they'd have 222 aid slots per cycle, which means per cycle they'd be able to send out 666,000,000$. Surely Karma just want's to make sure that NPO isn't possesed by the devil post-war. (I swear I didn't make those numbers up either)

[youwish959]

Assuming every one of those nations were to have a disaster aid relief wonder, that means they'd have 222 aid slots per cycle, which means per cycle they'd be able to send out 666,000,000$. Surely Karma just want's to make sure that NPO isn't possesed by the devil post-war. (I swear I didn't make those numbers up either)

That's not much rebuilding aid for an alliance of that size. It would take a few cycles for everyone to get $15 mill.