Small Analysis of Pacificans in Peace Mode

[jimbacher]

If you wonder why the entire first page is peace mode, it is probably because you sufficiently destroyed their non-peace mode first page such that they dropped from the first page.

[flak attack]

Absolutely not. If I sign peace terms with the NPO I will honor those terms. I will not become what I am fighting in order to win.

Agreed. I would take no part in such action. When we make an agreement, we follow up on it.

[BamaBuc]

Within Karma, perhaps. But not amongst those alliances on the Pacific front. Our resolve has never been stronger.

You're right, but what happens if we have another world war? Are you going to want to fight two fronts when you don't have to? NPO will probably do what FAN did in UJW... Launch a massive midwar strike on whoever hasn't given them peace. Are you going to want that if you're fighting a world war? Just saying.

-Bama

[SmashBrother299]

Within Karma, perhaps. But not amongst those alliances on the Pacific front. Our resolve has never been stronger.

This just seems quotable. I respect resolve.

[Otherworld]

Look at the sanction race, they have been steadily losing score...and that hasn't really changed at all. So I think they can still be hurt for quite some time as members leave and those in war are curbed.

[Denial]

You're right, but what happens if we have another world war? Are you going to want to fight two fronts when you don't have to? NPO will probably do what FAN did in UJW... Launch a massive midwar strike on whoever hasn't given them peace. Are you going to want that if you're fighting a world war? Just saying.

-Bama

It is true, continuing this war for months is not in our interests, but nor is it in Pacifica's interests.

Karma is interested in returning the world to peace as soon as possible. That is the difference between the current war against the New Pacific Order, and the previous VietFAN conflict. If the New Pacific Order desires peace, all they must do is fight the war they started, and accept the terms offered. We will accept a surrender, consisting of reasonable and just terms, once the New Pacific Order has been appropriately reprimanded for initiating a global conflict in the midst of peace negotiations. If you examine Karma's Pacific front, you will find the alliances engaged are either members or allies of signatories of all major blocs - Super Friends, Citadel, Complaints & Grievances, Frostbite, LEO, and so on. The likelihood of another global war whilst the Pacific War continues is unlikely (who would be fighting it, and why?). Prematurely concluding the war against the New Pacific Order because of something that only has a slim chance of occurring would be imprudent.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Revanche

[shahenshah]

Now all you gotta do is convince them why fighting is more harmful than staying put in peace mode.

[Denial]

Now all you gotta do is convince them why fighting is more harmful than staying put in peace mode.

I think you got that round the wrong way.

And it's rather simple, really. They come out of peace mode, fight the war they started, and accept the surrender terms, and they will be out of this war relatively soon. They get a chance to pay off reparations and begin reconstructing much quicker. On the other hand, they're stuck in a drawn-out conflict that lasts several months, and face surrender terms that will halt their reconstruction for quite some time on top of that.

[BamaBuc]

It is true, continuing this war for months is not in our interests, but nor is it in Pacifica's interests.

Karma is interested in returning the world to peace as soon as possible. That is the difference between the current war against the New Pacific Order, and the previous VietFAN conflict. If the New Pacific Order desires peace, all they must do is fight the war they started, and accept the terms offered. We will accept a surrender, consisting of reasonable and just terms, once the New Pacific Order has been appropriately reprimanded for initiating a global conflict in the midst of peace negotiations. If you examine Karma's Pacific front, you will find the alliances engaged are either members or allies of signatories of all major blocs - Super Friends, Citadel, Complaints & Grievances, Frostbite, LEO, and so on. The likelihood of another global war whilst the Pacific War continues is unlikely (who would be fighting it, and why?). Prematurely concluding the war against the New Pacific Order because of something that only has a slim chance of occurring would be imprudent.

They're not coming out of hippy and you're not giving them peace until they come out. Something's gotta give. From your perspective, NPO has everything to gain by coming out of hippy and ending this now. But it doesn't matter who has more to gain and lose, what matters is who thinks they have more to gain and lose. For whatever reason, NPO has decided that coming out of hippy is not in their interests. Somehow I don't think that a few more weeks of reps accumulating will change their minds. It'll only make them more determined to wait out the storm. In a couple months, people are gonna realize there's a war on the horizon, and that war will be a greater threat than Pacifica. All NPO has to do is wait until the time is right.

As for who would be fighting... Take a look around the forum. In my two-day absence, Citadel and SF apparently began hating each other passionately. I'm still a little confused and haven't figured out WHY they started hating each other. But these kinds of mass tensions never end with everyone hugging and being friends again. Why will they fight? For the same reason every world war is fought. Two sides hate each other and want to see the other burn. What the actual CB will be, I don't know, but it's irrelevant. World wars never start because of the given CB. They start because two sides want a good reason to kill each other.

-Bama

[Electron Sponge]

If you wonder why the entire first page is peace mode, it is probably because you sufficiently destroyed their non-peace mode first page such that they dropped from the first page.

You know, jimbacher is probably on to something here.

Also if you don't like NPO nations dropping into peace mode, stop screwing up your staggers. You can't complain if you're letting people get away.

[Azaghul]

You're right, but what happens if we have another world war? Are you going to want to fight two fronts when you don't have to? NPO will probably do what FAN did in UJW... Launch a massive midwar strike on whoever hasn't given them peace. Are you going to want that if you're fighting a world war? Just saying.

-Bama

How long is it gonna take for that to happen? It's been taking about a year on average. All their nations in the long term getting to rebuild rather than a third floundering in peace mode and the rest getting attacked indefinitely means more than those peace mode nations losing their infra in the short term.

They're not coming out of hippy and you're not giving them peace until they come out. Something's gotta give. From your perspective, NPO has everything to gain by coming out of hippy and ending this now. But it doesn't matter who has more to gain and lose, what matters is who thinks they have more to gain and lose. For whatever reason, NPO has decided that coming out of hippy is not in their interests. Somehow I don't think that a few more weeks of reps accumulating will change their minds. It'll only make them more determined to wait out the storm. In a couple months, people are gonna realize there's a war on the horizon, and that war will be a greater threat than Pacifica. All NPO has to do is wait until the time is right.

What NPO says and what NPO believes don't necessarily match. They most likely are just bluffing.

As for who would be fighting... Take a look around the forum. In my two-day absence, Citadel and SF apparently began hating each other passionately. I'm still a little confused and haven't figured out WHY they started hating each other. But these kinds of mass tensions never end with everyone hugging and being friends again. Why will they fight? For the same reason every world war is fought. Two sides hate each other and want to see the other burn. What the actual CB will be, I don't know, but it's irrelevant. World wars never start because of the given CB. They start because two sides want a good reason to kill each other.

-Bama

They've been arguing, it doesn't mean they want to fight each other or that it will result in conflict. Neither party is particularly likely to want to start a war over it and I don't either really wants to continue with the arguing either.

[CRexx]

The Karma Peace line is basically like this:

Hey NPO, switch all your banks/ high infra nations into war mode. Then we'll attack them and maul them. After an undetermined period of time and after doing an undetermined amount of damage we'll agree to peace terms containing an undetermined* amount of reps for you to repay. Don't worry though, our objective is not to repeat the mistakes of GWI. So we'll be sure to give you harsh terms after mauling your banks. Hey we're only at war with you, you can trust us!

If you're remotely suprised the NPO isn't taking Karma up on this offer you're (removed as I'd likely get warned. Let's just say I pray you never make into alliance government**).

*While undetermined odds are they will be extremely high

*Unless it happens to be an alliance I dislike, then go for it baby!

Edited June 1, 2009 by CRex of Gulo Gulo

[mattski133]

Within Karma, perhaps. But not amongst those alliances on the Pacific front. Our resolve has never been stronger.

Yeah I don't see LEO falling apart anytime soon and that would be enough to keep them down. Let alone the rest of the alliances that had zero questions about coming to help OV. If the goal is to wait for the NPO-front to dissolve it could be a very long wait.

[Virillus]

The Karma Peace line is basically like this:

If you're remotely suprised the NPO isn't taking Karma up on this offer you're (removed as I'd likely get warned. Let's just say I pray you never make into alliance government**).

*While undetermined odds are they will be extremely high

*Unless it happens to be an alliance I dislike, then go for it baby!

You're trying to tell me that roughly 1/4 of the NPO are banks? Ignoring the fact that "bank nations" are practically useless anyway. Considering the amount of aid a theoretical "bank nation" can send won't make any difference whatsoever to a fight. - If you don't have a warchest, you're hooped.

[CRexx]

You're trying to tell me that roughly 1/4 of the NPO are banks? Ignoring the fact that "bank nations" are practically useless anyway. Considering the amount of aid a theoretical "bank nation" can send won't make any difference whatsoever to a fight. - If you don't have a warchest, you're hooped.

Banks are worthless in war these days, agreed. With the costs of war the ability to move 3 million a slot is pretty much moot at higher levels. However post war high infra nations are key to rebuilding. With the inflationt hat has gone on in the game nations below 3,999 infra aren't useful for much beyond selling tech. Militarily they have little use. The nations that matter now are the nations that have major military wonders, massive warchests so they can fight for long periods of time, etc. Wars keep getting longer, so you need months of bills in reserve these days.

Post war to rebuild you need to pump money into the lower ranks en masse so that the lower ranks can labor camp swap and rebuild up to combat useful levels or at least the level they can afford to start buying wonders.

It takes anywhere from 45 days to 90 days to go from 0 to 5k infra with the proper bill camp support, the GRL and trades vary it of course. So let us consider the following:

1/4 of the alliance is in peace mode. The other 3/4 is below the 3k jump and needs to be rebuilt. Your 1/4 can adopt another 1/4 of the alliance and over the next 45 days rebuild it. Then 45 days later they do the next batch (the first rebuilt group won't have the support to send out money and rebuild internally yet). 45 days later they grab the last batch. So that is a rebuilding period of 4.5 months. Plus you have to figure the reps will take at least a month to pay off, so you're up to 5.5 to 6 months of internal rebuilding with 1/4 of your nations as banks.

That is of course ignoring the fact not everyone in that one quarter is over say the 8k infra jump and capable of pumping out 15 million every 10 days, while maintaining their own domestic wonder buying, etc. So the time line becomes longer.

So if I'm in the NPO government I'm going to avoid exposing high infra nations to hostile fire. Every nation I send out that gets hammered increases my rearmament program. 6 months is a long time to have to rearm for. Better to chill in hippy mode and accept reduced income than let your foundation get hammered.

[He Who Has No Name]

...and they will be a (relatively) high NS alliance with small numbers.

So what you're basically saying is the Emperor, IOs, and select top end nations will be the only ones left that really matter.

Basically, previous status quo minus cannon fodder.

Gotcha.

[Prince Yvl]

The Karma Peace line is basically like this:

Hey NPO, switch all your banks/ high infra nations into war mode. Then we'll attack them and maul them. After an undetermined period of time and after doing an undetermined amount of damage we'll agree to peace terms containing an undetermined* amount of reps for you to repay. Don't worry though, our objective is not to repeat the mistakes of GWI. So we'll be sure to give you harsh terms after mauling your banks. Hey we're only at war with you, you can trust us!

Uh, where did you get that ridiculous summary? From what I know, Karma hasn't sent NPO any peace terms since a couple weeks ago, which they declined - and they weren't anything like that. We do plan on giving them harsh terms (Moving them to gray seems like a good one,) but we're not going to beat up on them after they've agreed to peace.

[merlin]

From these statistics, I begin to wonder if the NPO is really suffering that much anymore.

4 days = -3 population happiness

6 days = -5 population happiness

8 days = -6 population happiness

10 days = -7 population happiness

12 days = -8 population happiness

14 days = -9 population happiness

There is also an additional economic penalty on top of the population happiness penalty if your nation is in peace mode for more than 5 days.

Guess what that additional penalty is? It's about 50% of your income. For big nations, that means you net virtually no cash. If you have bad trades, you can actually end up paying more in bills then you collect in taxes. Peace mode is very, very damaging for the NPO; their top 40 collectively probably lose at least 300 million each day. The only case in which it makes sense to hide out in peace mode is if their nations don't have sufficient warchests to rebuild after getting knocked around a bit (ZIed). I am willing to bet that is the case.

[Geiseric]

Guess what that additional penalty is? It's about 50% of your income. For big nations, that means you net virtually no cash. If you have bad trades, you can actually end up paying more in bills then you collect in taxes. Peace mode is very, very damaging for the NPO; their top 40 collectively probably lose at least 300 million each day. The only case in which it makes sense to hide out in peace mode is if their nations don't have sufficient warchests to rebuild after getting knocked around a bit (ZIed). I am willing to bet that is the case.

Especially if you screw up their collections with a well placed DEFCON/Threat change operations.

[Vladimir]

Uh, where did you get that ridiculous summary? From what I know, Karma hasn't sent NPO any peace terms since a couple weeks ago, which they declined - and they weren't anything like that. We do plan on giving them harsh terms (Moving them to gray seems like a good one,) but we're not going to beat up on them after they've agreed to peace.

Karma hasn't offered any peace terms at all. The peace terms that were discussed before the war were effectively accepted by the NPO, which is when the 'one minute to accept' came in to avoid such a thing. Since then all we have received is 'pre-terms', which work exactly as CRex of Gulo Gulo describes. I agree though, it is all a bit ridiculous.

[Master Hakai]

The OP didn't really have a good point.

Good job though, I mean, I read the post. I'm not gonna criticize!

[Näktergal]

NPO is losing about 5 nations a day. If this keeps up indefinitely those 264 nations are going to be all that remains of the NPO, and they will be a (relatively) high NS alliance with small numbers.

I do not think for a minute that this will actually happen, but there must be some satisfaction for Karma in making the NPO bleed members.

I've been wondering whether or not any of those surrenders and nations abandoning ship were actually doing so in order to escape the war and rebuild their nations outside of peace mode, so that, if the NPO ever does get terms (or more likely, from what has to be the NPO point-of-view, the various Karma alliances simply get bored and give up), they'd be in a strong position to immediately return to the fold and help rebuild.

Honestly, if I was a member of the NPO, I'd have been recommending that as a strategy weeks ago. Since it's a curbstomp anyway, and there's absolutely no way to win, why not make it seem like you're getting hurt worse than you really are, transfer essential resources out of the war so they'll be safe for later rebuilding and recovery, and basically roll over and play possum until your enemy gets bored with poking the corpse?

If that IS the strategy the NPO is currently using, it might be interesting to see how much their membership numbers surge after the war ends.

[der_ko]

Karma hasn't offered any peace terms at all. The peace terms that were discussed before the war were effectively accepted by the NPO, which is when the 'one minute to accept' came in to avoid such a thing. Since then all we have received is 'pre-terms', which work exactly as CRex of Gulo Gulo describes. I agree though, it is all a bit ridiculous.

The 1 min deadline was necessary to keep the dove population in the NPO in check.

[bkphysics]

Karma hasn't offered any peace terms at all. The peace terms that were discussed before the war were effectively accepted by the NPO, which is when the 'one minute to accept' came in to avoid such a thing. Since then all we have received is 'pre-terms', which work exactly as CRex of Gulo Gulo describes. I agree though, it is all a bit ridiculous.

Please try and keep your spin in one thread at a time, it gets confusing

[CRexx]

Uh, where did you get that ridiculous summary? From what I know, Karma hasn't sent NPO any peace terms since a couple weeks ago, which they declined - and they weren't anything like that. We do plan on giving them harsh terms (Moving them to gray seems like a good one,) but we're not going to beat up on them after they've agreed to peace.

Post by Revanche:

And it's rather simple, really. They come out of peace mode, fight the war they started, and accept the surrender terms, and they will be out of this war relatively soon...

That was actually posted in this thread. Notice the lack of things like numbers on how long they fight, numbers on the size of terms, how much damage is done to the larger nations, etc.

If the New Pacific Order desires peace, all they must do is fight the war they started, and accept the terms offered. We will accept a surrender, consisting of reasonable and just terms, once the New Pacific Order has been appropriately reprimanded for initiating a global conflict in the midst of peace negotiations.

More from this thread! Golden! Lets see 'come out, fight', along with various qualified around the terms. Revanche here uses subjective terms. The NPO gets what he feels are approriate. Not some hard number you can actually work with. It comes down to "Come out, fight and trust we won't crush you horrible peace terms after we have staggers on all your big nations." Plus Karma made those demands about how reps increase every day based on peace mode. Clearly Karma wants the nations out, yet Karma is offering only subjective assurances on how those nations will be treated. So you'd have be a chump to switch into war mode.

Now if you can more Revanche just follow the link above and read his recent posts. You can also play that game for a number of leaders on the Karma Pacific Front. Just check their profiles for posts. It all comes down to "the NPO needs to let us grind down its big nations." The NPO on the other hand is not willing to send out a large portion of its nuclear reserve / post war rebuilding nations on promises that it will get them 'appriorate peace terms' at a date yet to be named.

Both sides are valid. If you want to defeat the NPO to need to crush those high infrastructure nations. If the NPO wants to rebuild it needs high infrastructure nations to aid up the warn torn ranks.

But for the love of Justy, stop pretending to be surprised when the NPO opts to cruise in hippy!