New Pacific Order Reps Race

[Kahnite]

If the alternate was getting murdered, sure.

Are you implying EZI?

[jimbacher]

Seeing how there are several hundred members of the NPO and only a few posted, I'd say that most of them listen to their leaders quite well.

[Roadie]

You're still trying to prove to nobody who's listening that these preterm reps are reasonable and can be paid off in a reasonable amount of time.

My question is, who are you trying to convince?

[shahenshah]

If the alternate was getting murdered, sure.

Interesting.

[Azaghul]

It may be possible for the NPO to pay off large amounts of penalties incurred by these terms. If these terms were final terms then that might be enough of an argument. But there's a pretty reasonable chance that the final terms will only be marginally effected by these penalties. Compared to how much they would lose, strategically and economically, by blindly complying with these terms, it seems like a reasonable bet that the opportunity cost of ignoring these terms until they have some real incentive to do otherwise will be better than their other options currently.

The penalties aren't that high yet. Their only other option is months of war with little chance of ending for a very long time. It's very highly unlikely, even from there perspective, that the combination of a couple weeks of war and then the final terms would be worse than war with no foreseeable end.

The threat of punishment only works if they believe that the threatened punishment will actually occur, and that it will be worse than the alternative.

The punishment will occur at least to some extent. I really don't see how permanent war is a better alternative.

They've made it clear that vague assertions that the base terms are light are utterly meaningless to them.

They try to give that impression for propaganda purposes. If you really believe that they aren't willing to lie about their real thoughts, I've got some ocean-side property in the panhandle I'd like to sell to you.

And even if the terms aren't light, is it better than perpetual war?

They stand to lose the most by allowing all of their opponents to freely beat on them for an indefinite amount of time and ceding any power they may have left to try and steer eventual peace. That is what these pre-terms are asking them to do.

What power do they have to steer an eventual peace with their guys in peace mode? It's not enough to put up a major fight so it's meaningless. They stand to lose the most by a war that lasts for many, many months.

I have a personal theory that as Y grows, X will decrease, and that if Y had been neglible, X would have been greater (or the period of war would have been extended before X was ever released). It's a very reasonable theory, and from the perspective of someone who cannot reliably estimate what X is or how X is being treated or have any influence, at present, over X, it makes much more sense to treat it as a fluctuating variable than as a constant.

Unless people who actually know something are saying otherwise.

What it comes down to, regardless of whether it would be feasible to possibly pay off these reparations or not, or regardless of what the unknown, hidden X is, is what I posted last night.

If the goal was to legitimately try to lure NPO nations out of peace mode, this policy is and will be a failure, and how anyone can not grasp that is beyond me.

If the goal was simply to provide an excuse to prolong the war or force harsher reparations, then it was entirely unnecessary and a pointless waste of time.

Either way, it's useless and meaningless.

Or the purpose was to get one or the other and let NPO decide which one they want. Which is what they are getting.

I know many of the people fighting NPO, and all are content to keep fighting NPO indefinitely if they have too and see them continue to burn.

[Azaghul]

Are you implying EZI?

lol, no

Individual nations can surrender at any time, and NPO will still have the chance to have their nations come out and fight and then get peace.

[Sir Paul]

You could have made medium-sized, fixed-cost peace-mode "pre-terms" and NPO would still have refused them. Instead, these pre-terms will rise as NPO's ability to pay them falls. Had you given them fixed pre-terms like "all nations need to fight for at least two war cycles before peace terms will be negotiated", I imagine NPO would still have refused.

If the propaganda is to be believed, the NPO is an alliance with no morals or values but only cold, ruthless pragmatism. If that premise is accepted, then if reasonable terms were offered, the Order would accept them. I mean, I have no moral high ground or love of my alliance: I only crave pixels and power, so I am clearly looking for an easy way out.

That said, I believe that both sides have a lot of fear and trust issues. First, the Order was the very first alliance to have a treaty broken against it (Non-Aggression Pacts with various CoaLUEtion members and Legion). Karma says "come out of peace mode or we'll charge you more reparations." The Order has chosen more reparations. Now, it is being hinted that if the Order comes out of peace mode, after a few cycles of war, the war will be declared over. With my "trust" issues, I can't accept that implied offer because the voice of Karma didn't offer it and they don't mention how many cycles. If the 18 alliances decide to go several months after we exit peace mode because karma really didn't offer peace, I don't have a signed document I can take to MHA and MK which would allow me to prove a violated treaty and unwarranted aggression against the Order which would activate my Mutual Defense and Aid pacts. You can drag me to the guillotine but I'll not willingly place my neck there on the "promise" that it will be just a close shave.

Second, the Karma Coalition believes that the NPO is an all-powerful entity that, despite having nearly every ally attempt to cancel on them, and having their major bloc dissolved, and losing over 2/3rds of their strength, we have the ability to raise a coalition to murder every last one them and extract a stone of flesh for every pound they take. They have some "fear" issues with regards to us and now that they have us at a disadvantage, want to keep us there until they get a guarantee that we'll never come back again.

From my perspective, Karma wants the NPO dead and has no intension of offering us peace. If they were serious about peace, we'd be talking and working out our fear and trust issues. As this has not happened, the Order will simply have to plan on an extended conflict until the 18 indicate otherwise.

[Owney OSullivan]

This isn't making karma look very good. It's just oppressive. I know many people think NPO is evil and harbor hatred towards them, but doesn't this make you just as bad as them?

[TypoNinja]

Honestly, if you walked into a dealership to buy a car and the salesman said, "I'll sell it to you for $30,000 plus fees." And you ask "How much are the fees?" To which the reply is, "Something reasonable, less than infinity."

Would you buy?

You and the NPO crowd seem to be missing a very vital point.

There is no 'good' option for the NPO. They get to choose between bad and worse. Thats what happens when you lose a war, doubly so if its one you foolishly started.

Terms are bad, because well they are terms, any terms are bad, its just a degree of bad. Worse would be arrogantly ignoring terms and opting to continue a losing fight and then still get stuck with terms anyway.

I'll say it again since so many people seem to miss it. Karma doesn't have to give NPO an incentive to do anything, as the victors we have the luxury of dictating terms to the NPO, the NPO doesn't like this role reversal but thats not our problem its theirs.

[Sir Paul]

lol, no

Individual nations can surrender at any time, and NPO will still have the chance to have their nations come out and fight and then get peace.

My dear treaty partner: The Voice of Karma has not said this. Actually, no official Karma representative, speaking for the 18 alliances engaged to the Order, has indicated that the Order would be offered peace terms provided that we bring our nations out of peace mode. All that has been said is that the amount of reperations due will be increased if we do not remove our nations from peace mode. Ergo, the OP is being updated everyday as we wait for the 18 to offer final terms.

[Penguin]

From my perspective, Karma wants the NPO dead and has no intension of offering us peace. If they were serious about peace, we'd be talking and working out our fear and trust issues. As this has not happened, the Order will simply have to plan on an extended conflict until the 18 indicate otherwise.

I think if they wanted you dead, their strong stance against eternal warfare would hinder their longterm ability to accomplish that goal. It seems more likely that they realize they cannot kill you and are looking for the way to do the most damage before mounting sympathy in the community and boredom in the coalition cause the pendulum to swing back in your favor.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Penguin

[Seerow]

If the propaganda is to be believed, the NPO is an alliance with no morals or values but only cold, ruthless pragmatism. If that premise is accepted, then if reasonable terms were offered, the Order would accept them. I mean, I have no moral high ground or love of my alliance: I only crave pixels and power, so I am clearly looking for an easy way out.

That said, I believe that both sides have a lot of fear and trust issues. First, the Order was the very first alliance to have a treaty broken against it (Non-Aggression Pacts with various CoaLUEtion members and Legion). Karma says "come out of peace mode or we'll charge you more reparations." The Order has chosen more reparations. Now, it is being hinted that if the Order comes out of peace mode, after a few cycles of war, the war will be declared over. With my "trust" issues, I can't accept that implied offer because the voice of Karma didn't offer it and they don't mention how many cycles. If the 18 alliances decide to go several months after we exit peace mode because karma really didn't offer peace, I don't have a signed document I can take to MHA and MK which would allow me to prove a violated treaty and unwarranted aggression against the Order which would activate my Mutual Defense and Aid pacts. You can drag me to the guillotine but I'll not willingly place my neck there on the "promise" that it will be just a close shave.

Second, the Karma Coalition believes that the NPO is an all-powerful entity that, despite having nearly every ally attempt to cancel on them, and having their major bloc dissolved, and losing over 2/3rds of their strength, we have the ability to raise a coalition to murder every last one them and extract a stone of flesh for every pound they take. They have some "fear" issues with regards to us and now that they have us at a disadvantage, want to keep us there until they get a guarantee that we'll never come back again.

From my perspective, Karma wants the NPO dead and has no intension of offering us peace. If they were serious about peace, we'd be talking and working out our fear and trust issues. As this has not happened, the Order will simply have to plan on an extended conflict until the 18 indicate otherwise.

Since you made this post seriously, as opposed to the last one that just made me laugh, let me ask you a serious question in turn.

If Karma came out today and said they had a list of every nation currently in peace, they wanted to fight 3 cycles of war against each of these nations, at that time they would give you terms. Or even if they said they wanted to take each of these nations below 500 infra at least once.

Assuming these were standard terms, including the reps already incurred by the pre-terms, and a flat moderate amount of reps (say about what IRON got, maybe 50% higher, then add in the extra reps from the peace mode fines on top of it), military decom, treaties suspended, etc. Would the NPO accept?

Basically if you got what you claim you want, an assurance from Karma that the war would not last forever, but would be a relatively quick beating followed by peace. Would you then accept it and come out of peace?

If it's not your position to say, talk to Moo or the other IOs and get back with an actual answer. Because if that's the case I'm willing to place a strong bet that some sort of actual agreement can be worked out.

But then again who am I to say. Both sides have been very stubborn in this conflict. Either one of you giving just an inch of ground could end the war in short order at this point.

[Azaghul]

From my perspective, Karma wants the NPO dead and has no intension of offering us peace. If they were serious about peace, we'd be talking and working out our fear and trust issues. As this has not happened, the Order will simply have to plan on an extended conflict until the 18 indicate otherwise.

I think most probably wouldn't trust you regardless of what you might say to each other.

My dear treaty partner: The Voice of Karma has not said this. Actually, no official Karma representative, speaking for the 18 alliances engaged to the Order, has indicated that the Order would be offered peace terms provided that we bring our nations out of peace mode. All that has been said is that the amount of reperations due will be increased if we do not remove our nations from peace mode. Ergo, the OP is being updated everyday as we wait for the 18 to offer final terms.

It's been said plenty and since I know many of those 18 and their intentions, consider this passing along intelligence relevant to your security.

If you want absolute certainty and signed documents, all I have to say is: Welcome to being on the losing side of a war.

[Alterego]

I think if they wanted you dead, their strong stance against eternal warfare would hinder their longterm ability to accomplish that goal. It seems more likely that they realize they cannot kill you and are looking for the way to do the most damage before mounting sympathy in the community and boredom in the coalition cause the pendulum to swing back in your favor.

They can just rephrase eternal warfare to something else. Lots of rephrasing and word play about these days.

[Roadie]

If you want absolute certainty and signed documents, all I have to say is: Welcome to being on the losing side of a war.

Hello VieTPF! I look forward to our continued engagement.

[Penguin]

They can just rephrase eternal warfare to something else. Lots of rephrasing and word play about these days.

I suppose they could try, but it would have made a lot more sense to steer discussion away from eternal wars from the beginning if that was their original intent.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Penguin

[WarriorConcept]

If the propaganda is to be believed, the NPO is an alliance with no morals or values but only cold, ruthless pragmatism. If that premise is accepted, then if reasonable terms were offered, the Order would accept them. I mean, I have no moral high ground or love of my alliance: I only crave pixels and power, so I am clearly looking for an easy way out.

That said, I believe that both sides have a lot of fear and trust issues. First, the Order was the very first alliance to have a treaty broken against it (Non-Aggression Pacts with various CoaLUEtion members and Legion). Karma says "come out of peace mode or we'll charge you more reparations." The Order has chosen more reparations. Now, it is being hinted that if the Order comes out of peace mode, after a few cycles of war, the war will be declared over. With my "trust" issues, I can't accept that implied offer because the voice of Karma didn't offer it and they don't mention how many cycles. If the 18 alliances decide to go several months after we exit peace mode because karma really didn't offer peace, I don't have a signed document I can take to MHA and MK which would allow me to prove a violated treaty and unwarranted aggression against the Order which would activate my Mutual Defense and Aid pacts. You can drag me to the guillotine but I'll not willingly place my neck there on the "promise" that it will be just a close shave.

Second, the Karma Coalition believes that the NPO is an all-powerful entity that, despite having nearly every ally attempt to cancel on them, and having their major bloc dissolved, and losing over 2/3rds of their strength, we have the ability to raise a coalition to murder every last one them and extract a stone of flesh for every pound they take. They have some "fear" issues with regards to us and now that they have us at a disadvantage, want to keep us there until they get a guarantee that we'll never come back again.

From my perspective, Karma wants the NPO dead and has no intension of offering us peace. If they were serious about peace, we'd be talking and working out our fear and trust issues. As this has not happened, the Order will simply have to plan on an extended conflict until the 18 indicate otherwise.

I'd defer most of your propaganda to This post.

Beside that as to your second point, NPO has shown its ability and willingness to chase down alliances over years with a grudge, or need we remind you of Legion?

[magicninja]

If you want absolute certainty and signed documents, all I have to say is: Welcome to being on the losing side of a war.

Well if you want to act like them and adopt might makes right, all I have to say is: Welcome to becoming what you hate.

[Alterego]

I suppose they could try, but it would have made a lot more sense to steer discussion away from eternal wars from the beginning if that was their original intent.

The blame has already been assigned to NPO for having nations in peace mode thus extending their own punishment. This eternal war prolonged struggle against NPO is their own fault.

[Vilien]

Well if you want to act like them and adopt might makes right, all I have to say is: Welcome to becoming what you hate.

Hey, we may be becoming what we hate, but at least we haven't been what we hated for the past three years.

[BattleBorn]

Why should there be any type of reasonable terms for the New Pacific Order..

I watched you guys single handedly make sure alliances wouldn't be able to get back on their feet by making them pay ridiculous amounts of terms such as GATO numerous times, Legion even, Mushroom Kingdom, and sure you can argue you weren't the only ones who made sure you got paid.

But eh, everyone knows you called the shots in every single great war and everyone wants their piece of the pie back. You think that after beating all those alliances "Karma" wouldn't come back to you? Well it does and people want to see NPO suffer for what they have done to so many great alliances, and all the bullying they have pulled over the years.

There is no reason the New Pacific Order should get any kind of Reasonable terms because you have not done such a thing in over a year or two. Now your in say GATO's shoes and you can't handle it, you just want to whine about how these terms are so unreasonable. Just get over it, you know Karma will not be giving you any kind of terms that would let you back on your feet for a month or two. It'd be a slap in the face to all of those alliances you have beat up on in the past.

So either take the terms we give to you or don't, because right now I don't think many of the people in Karma would care if you did take the reps or if you turned into the next VietFAN because honestly.. I'd like to see NPO in shambles, or maybe even become Karma's new parking lot for all of those tanks we had to buy to take you out.

Well New Pacific Order, the choice is yours now, not Karma's. Karma is forced to be kind to you because we are stressing a new way of playing this wonderful game and don't want to stoop to your level. However don't mistake it for weakness that's the worst thing you could do.

Edited May 30, 2009 by BattleBorn

[Penguin]

The blame has already been assigned to NPO for having nations in peace mode thus extending their own punishment. This eternal war prolonged struggle against NPO is their own fault.

I didn't say they couldn't or wouldn't try. I just said that it will be difficult to convince the public and the coalition of that in 6 months when the reps are not reasonable. That is pretty much the same line used with FAN and as we all know, eventually people stopped buying it.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Penguin

[magicninja]

Hey, we may be becoming what we hate, but at least we haven't been what we hated for the past three years.

Everyone starts somewhere. Give it some time.

[Azaghul]

Hello VieTPF! I look forward to our continued engagement.

Me too.

Unfortunately my wars expired and nuclear anarchy prevents me from declaring new ones momentarily, and there aren't many targets around. If you could get some of your friends to declare, there's some milestones I'd like to hit before the war is over for me. I'm 3/4ths of the way to ZI.

[Alterego]

Hey, we may be becoming what we hate, but at least we haven't been what we hated for the past three years.

You're supposed to deny this.