New Pacific Order Reps Race

[shahenshah]

They know what part of the terms are. The pre-terms which are being discussed in this thread. Vladimir has suggested that the new Pacific Order will not accept them and so it follows that not accepting terms suggests one of two things.

1) You want different terms.

2) You don't plan on surrendering.

Sorry I meant the norm - The End terms...how much do they know about that? Have you shown them the numbers? Also what is the reason for not showing them the reps adjusted to peace mode and without peace mode nations..?

Edited May 29, 2009 by shahenshah

[SpiderJerusalem]

I don't think they'd surrender to Karma under your approach any faster than with the approach we have taken.

Why not?

The key point here is, surrender.

Exactly. That's why your method is wrong. You must get them to want to surrender. These threats will not accomplish that

It's not the terms, it is the mindset of the NPO, that is keeping them from peace.

That mindset have kept them at the top for three years, and ergo, they are not idiots. They would however be idiots if they didn't simply laugh over the conditions that they have been presented

They think they can dictate their own surrender/non-surrender.

Every alliance can do this. Refusing to give up unless they get some leniency is a choice for them to make

I think a handful of people are condemning hundreds to suffer more than they should have.

Yes. But those people are not the people you think they are. Those people are the leaders of KARMA that refuse to explore other means of accomplishing their goal

Again, dude, they had 5 days where just by lowering their peace count to 50 nations, these reps would not have been so large, but they instead sent more people into peace mode; they are not taking Karma seriously.

Hey, man, I am laughing with them. These pre-terms are hysterical. And as a side note, they follow the exact tactic that I would have followed. I will illustrate that with two of my favourite quotes:

"It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on."

and

"The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him"

the same people who were opposed to these terms will be referring to Karma the same way they have been ridiculing the CoaLUEtion for years.

You could not be more wrong. With monetary terms, you will gain very little. With terms that limit their freedom, you will truly have defeated them. I am amazed that so few have realized this

[mattski133]

I don't have time for the rest, so I'll just address this. You never made us an offer to take, instead opting for these absurd pre-terms that mean absolutely nothing. Show us your proposed secret terms allowing us to make an informed choice and we can consider them, but until then you have given us nothing to consider.

Initial (pre-, secret, meaningless) terms: leave peace mode and fight, and avoid or minimize stacking reperations for delaying.

Secondary terms: the terms Karma have ready for your final surrender once the initial terms have been met (see: a real war for two to three cycles).

Karma has decided that for the NPO to receive peace, they would have to fight, as they so often preached and boasted before. Ideally, for you, that time would probably have been back when your allies came to your rescue and you had a fighting chance. Instead you buckled down to retain your sanction while they lost theirs and were summarily crushed.

Karma.

[magicninja]

They may take it if you are ready to release all the information necessary for them to make a good decision about it. Tell them how much war to expect, tell them how much reps to expect, remind them the PM money is adding up but still manageable, and then see if they take it. If not then you are no worse off than you are now. Where is the harm in that?

Whenever you are ready Karma. I have time.

[mattski133]

Why not?

Because they are not looking to surrender. Apparently they've never lost.

Exactly. That's why your method is wrong. You must get them to want to surrender. These threats will not accomplish that

That mindset have kept them at the top for three years, and ergo, they are not idiots. They would however be idiots if they didn't simply laugh over the conditions that they have been presented

I don't think Karma really cares if they want to surrender or not. At least it is on the table, and the fastest way back to the top, would have been to accept them.

Every alliance can do this. Refusing to give up unless they get some leniency is a choice for them to make

I don't think there can be any more leniency for them than what we have already offered. We opened the door for them. Everyone else fought in this war (and still are fighting) but these guys have decided to ride it out. Not a chance.

Yes. But those people are not the people you think they are. Those people are the leaders of KARMA that refuse to explore other means of accomplishing their goal

We explored lots of ideas. How to get NPO out of peace mode...how to get an alliance that claims it never lost a war to surrender...tough cookie. But seriously, we ran through some scenarios. I think it was we that gave their intelligence too much credit.

Hey, man, I am laughing with them. These pre-terms are hysterical. And as a side note, they follow the exact tactic that I would have followed. I will illustrate that with two of my favourite quotes:

"It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on."

and

"The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him"

No one is going to profit from this war, but I do know that Karma will rebuild around the NPO while they remain stagnant.

You could not be more wrong. With monetary terms, you will gain very little. With terms that limit their freedom, you will truly have defeated them. I am amazed that so few have realized this.

These initial monetary terms are punitive for not leaving peace mode and add on to the final terms. The final terms are what you are talking about. If Karma was smart enough to outmaneuver One Vision, we might, just might be smart enough to finish it also.

Italic stuff up above...

[mattski133]

They may take it if you are ready to release all the information necessary for them to make a good decision about it. Tell them how much war to expect, tell them how much reps to expect, remind them the PM money is adding up but still manageable, and then see if they take it. If not then you are no worse off than you are now. Where is the harm in that?

Whenever you are ready Karma. I have time.

Sounds good to me. Let me go check and see if Moo has changed his mind on sending his banks out for a few rounds of combat. Brb.

[SpiderJerusalem]

Because they are not looking to surrender. Apparently they've never lost.

They will always be looking for ways to preserve their alliance in the best possible way

I don't think Karma really cares if they want to surrender or not.

Wait, what?

I don't think there can be any more leniency for them than what we have already offered. We opened the door for them. Everyone else fought in this war (and still are fighting) but these guys have decided to ride it out. Not a chance.

You didn't open a door at all. You replaced the wooden door with a steel door and locked it.

We explored lots of ideas. How to get NPO out of peace mode...how to get an alliance that claims it never lost a war to surrender...tough cookie. But seriously, we ran through some scenarios. I think it was we that gave their intelligence too much credit.

I have to make a list on this one...

• What ideas did you discard?
  
• Why do you mock their intelligence? They did the the only logical thing in the given situation
  
• Why didn't you try out some of the other ideas first? Or well, after, now that you've seen how much you failed with this one?
  

No one is going to profit from this war, but I do know that Karma will rebuild around the NPO while they remain stagnant.

Profit is not always a matter of money. When KARMA give out idiotic ultimatums like this, you will lose some of the PR you've managed to build up

These initial monetary terms are punitive for not leaving peace mode and add on to the final terms. The final terms are what you are talking about.

Why haven't you shown a rough draft of these final terms to NPO? If they get some kind of certainty of what's coming, it's much easier for them to make a decision

[magicninja]

Sounds good to me. Let me go check and see if Moo has changed his mind on sending his banks out for a few rounds of combat. Brb.

You would have to give them all the terms set in stone and I bet they take it. If you guys don't wanna be stubborn. Tell them exactly how long those nations will be in war. Tell them exactly what the final surrender terms and reps are and I bet they just might give in. The way you guys are handling the process is mediocre at best and gives NPO no choice but to decline. Unless of course that was your intention then well I don;t think you'll like the end result.

[Pablo Monkey]

The terms can not be taken back now. If KARMA rescinds these pre conditions then it will be seen as an NPO victory, and Vladimir will be writing next year how this is when NPO won the KARMA war.

I am sure that KARMA thought that these terms were some kind of poetic justice, but NPO is trying to win the war so they wll not take them.

NPO thinks that if they wait long enouh that KARMA will continue to fall apart. The best thing KARMA could do right now is form a temporary war time bloc to show NPO that until they surrender that there is a cohesive force to oppose them.

[mattski133]

Wait, what?

We don't care if they WANT to surrender. Of course we would like them to.

I have to make a list on this one...

• What ideas did you discard?
  
• Why do you mock their intelligence? They did the the only logical thing in the given situation
  
• Why didn't you try out some of the other ideas first? Or well, after, now that you've seen how much you failed with this one?
  

The logical thing would have been to fight a few rounds and get peace. I'm not sure we've failed yet, either.

Profit is not always a matter of money. When KARMA give out idiotic ultimatums like this, you will lose some of the PR you've managed to build up

I don't speak for Karma in this, but I don't really see what business PR has in dictating our war, especially when it is formed by NPO and NPO supporters. When we start caring about PR more than the ultimate goal, well, we sort of lose sight of it, in my eyes. Besides, I feel NPO is pretty lucky to have voices of reason amongst Karma that give them these opportunities, when they never bothered to give them to their enemies. By being indignant, those voices are slowly fading.

Why haven't you shown a rough draft of these final terms to NPO? If they get some kind of certainty of what's coming, it's much easier for them to make a decision

Are you in these conversations with them or something? I know I'm not and I'm in the war...but i seriously don't know if that has happened or not.

You would have to give them all the terms set in stone and I bet they take it. If you guys don't wanna be stubborn. Tell them exactly how long those nations will be in war. Tell them exactly what the final surrender terms and reps are and I bet they just might give in. The way you guys are handling the process is mediocre at best and gives NPO no choice but to decline. Unless of course that was your intention then well I don;t think you'll like the end result.

I'm not sure of what talks have been had so I can't comment on that. Seems plausible, but I don't get that impression from the logs I have seen thus far.

[magicninja]

I'm not sure of what talks have been had so I can't comment on that. Seems plausible, but I don't get that impression from the logs I have seen thus far.

It seems to me the only problem NPO has with it is that there are no guarantees on the length of time the war will continue once they come out of peace and what the final reps will be. I think if you gave them that they would seriously consider it. There is no harm in it. They are either going to accept and you accomplish what you wanted to or they decline and you're still sitting here in the same place. If your true intention is to end the war and cripple NPO in the process you would do better giving them the info up front and letting them make an informed decision instead of playing head games where nobody wins.

What is fairly obvious is that Karma has a NS goal that they want NPO to get under and they don't know how long it would take to get NPO under it so they don't want to put a timeline on it. That's absurd. Once those nations come out of peace the NS will peel off quickly and even if you don't get to your goal you will still be causing a great amount of damage. Do the right thing and end the war on your terms even if the final tally isn't what you expected. NPO is beaten. Don't give them the opportunity to try to wait you out. I think that is too much of a risk as it is.

Edited May 29, 2009 by magicninja

[SpiderJerusalem]

We don't care if they WANT to surrender. Of course we would like them to.

See, you're contradicting yourself. If you would like them to surrender, you do care if they do.

The logical thing would have been to fight a few rounds and get peace. I'm not sure we've failed yet, either.

The reason that you have failed is because these "pre-terms" have given the NPO only one choice. And it's not the choice you feel is the "logical" one.

I don't speak for Karma in this, but I don't really see what business PR has in dictating our war, especially when it is formed by NPO and NPO supporters. When we start caring about PR more than the ultimate goal, well, we sort of lose sight of it, in my eyes.

PR created this war

Besides, I feel NPO is pretty lucky to have voices of reason amongst Karma that give them these opportunities, when they never bothered to give them to their enemies. By being indignant, those voices are slowly fading.

That may be. However, your failure to think ahead have made the same voices ten times louder. I myself have been fairly open about my distaste with the former hegemony. But now, when I see the lack of foresight and the amount of idiocy on our side, I must speak up against you.

Are you in these conversations with them or something? I know I'm not and I'm in the war...but i seriously don't know if that has happened or not.

No, I am not in any conversations with the NPO. But it's fairly obvious that you have yet to show them a rough draft on the final peace terms along with a few promises regarding the length of this war if they come out of peace mode. That might have been a good thing to give them before or along with these conditions

[cowen70]

did NPO offer adequate proof enough to persuade FAN to come out of peace mode and fight?

No they merely said they'd discuss peace after a proper bit of war. That they wouldn't discuss it until a proper fight had been had.

So its the old switcheroo, delicious.

[agnews]

did NPO offer adequate proof enough to persuade FAN to come out of peace mode and fight?

No they merely said they'd discuss peace after a proper bit of war. That they wouldn't discuss it until a proper fight had been had.

So its the old switcheroo, delicious.

couldn't have said it better myself

[Haflinger]

did NPO offer adequate proof enough to persuade FAN to come out of peace mode and fight?

No they merely said they'd discuss peace after a proper bit of war. That they wouldn't discuss it until a proper fight had been had.

So its the old switcheroo, delicious.

You're making the counterargument.

How did the FAN-NPO war end?

[D34th]

You may not have forced them to disband, but your actions left them in a position where you crippled them to a state where they could no longer function properly and if an alliance can not function properly it can not protect its members and it will eventually disband.

Do you know FAN? GATO? GPA? NpO? MK? All those alliances received harsh terms some lost their soverignty and still are alive. Alliances who disbaned because were being curbstomped deserve what they got. Blame others for their failure just show how they fail.

[SpoiL]

GOD- Nothing paod to NPO

FOK- Nothing Paid to NPO, took their share in wars alongside NPO

R&R- Nothing to NPO

The International- Nothing to NPO

MOON- Nothing to NPO

Dice- Nothing to NPO

Vanguard- Nothing to NPO

RAD- Nothing to NPO

Sparta- Nothing to NPO but claimed some money as NPO's partners

RoK- Nothing to NPO but claimed mopney as NPO partners

GR- Can't find where this GR paid anything to NPO

OV- OV was the actual victim of this war we'll hook them up 1 bil and 20k Tech

VE- Nothing to NPO but claimed money as NPO partners

Athens- 8000k tech- We'll give them all of that back with interest so 500 mil 18k tech to Athens

Avalanche- Can't find anything that says they've paid anything to NPO either

Two of these alliances have legitimate claims to reps by past or current wrongdoings by NPO. So 12 alliances we give them 500 mil and 10k tech for their troubles in defending OV.

7.5 billion 158k tech if you want to be fair to the alliances actually fighting NPO. I wouldn't argue OV getting more but no one else. If any of these alliances plan on asking for reps for what NPO has done to other alliances outside of this front then I would hope they make sure those reps get to the people who deserve it and don't pocket it themselves. That would be disgusting beyond words.

I think you forgot what reps means. Reparations. War reparations.

[James Wilson]

Do you know FAN? GATO? GPA? NpO? MK? All those alliances received harsh terms some lost their soverignty and still are alive. Alliances who disbaned because were being curbstomped deserve what they got. Blame others for their failure just show how they fail.

Yes I do know them all. I am ex-GATO. And so in your opinion, LUE, NAAC, GOLD, Golden Sabers, and the First IAA deserved to die? I didn't realize you were a fan of curbstomps...

[D34th]

Yes I do know them all. I am ex-GATO. And so in your opinion, LUE, NAAC, GOLD, Golden Sabers, and the First IAA deserved to die? I didn't realize you were a fan of curbstomps...

Yeah, no outside force has the power to disband an alliance and if they chose disband is their decision and consequently their fault, so I think they deserve what they got. And I' never said that I'm fan of curbstomps or support them so your presumptions is wrong.

[James Wilson]

Yeah, no outside force has the power to disband an alliance and if they chose disband is their decision and consequently their fault, so I think they deserve what they got. And I' never said that I'm fan of curbstomps or support them so your presumptions is wrong.

Certainly...especially IAA who honored a treaty and disbanded rather then see a fellow member EZI'd. Yea they totally got what they deserved./sarcasm But of course...your opinion is yours and mine is mine.

[D34th]

Certainly...especially IAA who honored a treaty and disbanded rather then see a fellow member EZI'd. Yea they totally got what they deserved./sarcasm But of course...your opinion is yours and mine is mine.

So a member nation infra has more value than the hole alliance? Yeah they deserved it.

All vox members were setenced to ZI/PZI/EZI and I don't reember them disbanding.

Edited May 29, 2009 by D34th

[James Wilson]

So a member nation infra has more value than the hole alliance? Yeah they deserved it.

All vox members were setenced to ZI/PZI/EZI and I don't reember them disbanding.

Wow...way to miss the point. Oh...and everyone in Vox KNEW that would happen when they joined up because they didn't care. Your argument sucks, just to tell you.

[greatmagnus]

*Flies through wall*

Please leave NAAC out of forced disbandment talks of any kind. It has been covered MANY times and if you have not bothered to read even one of those then please gtfo.

*Slides out of topic on forehead*

[D34th]

Wow...way to miss the point. Oh...and everyone in Vox KNEW that would happen when they joined up[1] because they didn't care[2]. Your argument sucks, just to tell you.

1- Everyone would know that when you join an alliance you should defend it at all costs, including your infra.

2- Care for what? Their infra? So are you telling me that people disband an alliance because they care about they infra? Thanks for prove my point.

Yeah my argument sucks.

Edited May 29, 2009 by D34th

[mrPringlesLIVES]

this has nothing to do with polaris, it would be wise to not get so involved here.