New Pacific Order Reps Race

[magicninja]

Those reps are already to high for this thread to mean anything anymore. Brilliant plan Karma. Damn fine brain trust you have there.

[enderland]

It's quite obvious that you support the NPO and as your a member of government you would be well within your rights to, oh I don't know, assist them militarily? If your going to talk the talk then walk the walk as well.

Yeah this is going to happen, I'm sure Kronos would love to help the NPO out!

Simply partaking in discussion does not make you a supporter of one side or another. I would like to think that in my time here I have been consistent in calling out people - both sides - when I see, in particular faulty argumentation style or things I disagree with. Simply disagreeing with someone does not make them my enemy.

[Jack Diorno]

Those reps are already to high for this thread to mean anything anymore. Brilliant plan Karma. Damn fine brain trust you have there.

What do you mean?

[Sileath]

You haven't read the thread, Revanche, because these comments litter the thread. From MoDs to dozens of members to prominent members back to MoDs. Don't try to insult my intelligence by claiming you have read the thread and found no such statements.

From statements calling these pre-terms, which are prevalent on the first 10 pages, to disagreement over whether or not NPO has to leave peace to get surrender terms. It's all in this thread for your easy review. If you don't wish to admit this, that's fine by me. You certainly aren't under any obligation to do so.

Again, I am not going to pull up every single post in this thread, and others, that proves my statement. Insofar as effectively and decisively winning a war? Well, the two of us apparently disagree on what that means. I don't view it as stomping an enemy into a bloody pulp, but then again I rather enjoy war and competition.

My posts lack the slightest grasp on fact or logic? That's laughable, considering the statements you have made within. I guess making the claim "It only exists if you want it to" works for both sides of an argument, eh? Also, as I am not involved in the NPO front nor in any war effort that would indeed make you and your allies "your side". At least, that makes the most sense to me. There is your side, the other side, and me. Pretty clear.

If clear questions, alternate methods, and trying to sort out conflicting statements is "smearing"...then I guess that is what I'm doing. Until I, persistently, get attacked by enraged individuals such as yourself I don't have any issues.

It has to be a policy, then? I thought high ranking members of other alliances stating such was good enough. Silly me. I guess the argument only works when you are shouting down your enemies...then every member represents their alliance?

I believe in free speech, so I'm unclear as to what you are talking about. It's your folks that paint every member as a representative of their alliance. It was a pretty little rant, though, and one quite supportive of free speech. I do appreciate it.

Had you taken a few deep breaths before raging away at your keyboard, the thought might have crossed your mind. "Hmm...neither of those numbers represent NPO's strength accurately. Yet one happens to be one-fourth of the other. How interesting."

A smear campaign? Yet again, the behavior is unacceptable when it's done TO you and not BY you. I gave you the chance to take your disagreement with me into private venues, yet instead here we sit shouting back and forth at each other.

You've read the thread, and it's hilarious that you are trying to paint me as a beacon of morality. I don't believe I, or anyone else you 'smear' with this, have attempted to impart some divine moral code onto you. Unfortunately, statements such as this and the fact you responded publicly instead of sorting our personal disagreement out in private, only displays the fact that in your moment of glory you cannot take any sort of criticism.

Oh, but wait, there's more. I'm sure you will shortly post about how you can handle criticism so long as it's based in fact and logic. You may then continue to insist I am neither, and therefor I am 'smearing' (Again, only your side can do that) as opposed to offering criticism. I care not. I will continue to voice my disagreement, ask my questions, and gather information into the way the war is being handled. Speaking of that, how can you claim these terms are not required to be met for final peace...yet still claim they must suffer more? It's obvious they cannot suffer much more unless they leave peace. Quite a pickle.

It's been great, Revanche, and I'm sure you feel better for the exchange. I'm certain you are gloating about making me look "quite the fool". Frankly, I'm disappointed though. I would have thought that you of all people would address my issues in private as opposed to continuing to fan the flames. It's only bad when the other people do it, right?

As always, if you would actually read the thread instead of claiming to have done so, good luck with the war. There has never been a disagreement over the war, only over the execution and demeanor. I, personally, think you are exacting more revenge than anything else. I guess that's just me instilling some of that "morale code", though. Damn it all. I'll try again, though. Feel free to take this up with me. I doubt you will, though. Regardless, I won't respond to you. Not again. I will respond to arguments over why it's not overkill, how fast NPO can regrow, why these terms are absurd, etc. I won't partake in your continuing crusade to attack individuals and blame alliances while expecting no blow back. Enjoy enforcing your double standard.

Never in my life have I seen so much fluff attempting to disguise itself as coherent thought.

Revanche, like myself, seeks evidence prior to hastily jumping to conclusions, not meaningless buzz words and political postulation.

You have assumed that because certain members of Karma were saying certain things, that was how reality had availed itself. You claim to support free speech, yet you say people must speak for their alliance, while you yourself are government of your alliance and say that you can say whatever you want without consequence.

You would have been better off just providing the evidence that Revanche had requested.. but it wasn't there, which is why you didn't, which is why you went off on a tirade on a great man which only served to show how little you understand of the reality of the situation.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Sileath

[magicninja]

What do you mean?

This was an ill conceived plan that never had even a small chance of succeeding. She can keep the tally if she likes and we can sit here for months talking about it but those reps will never be part of the final agreement. If there is ever a final agreement that those facing NPO get to deliver. Tensions are already starting across CN. NPO will just wait until they break and take their chance. I honestly don;t see you guys outlasting them now. This was probably a fatal mistake.

[Londo Mollari]

/me coughs

Uhhh... Nizzle? I haven't really said anything over the past several weeks, because I was hoping this issue would work itself out and I am aware that a lot of this animosity had its genesis in the Valhalla thread. But it looks like it isn't going to die on its own. I respectfully request that you take the initiative to take whatever issues you have with any of our allies to private channels, as per Article III of the Athens-Kronos treaty.

Article 3: Respect

In order for our relationship to remain strong and healthy, we must agree to always show respect towards each other in all public domains and agree to refrain from trolling or flaming each other's allies. Any disputes shall be settled in private, in a calm and dignified manner.

Thanks.

[magicninja]

/me coughs

Uhhh... Nizzle? I haven't really said anything over the past several weeks, because I was hoping this issue would work itself out and I am aware that a lot of this animosity had its genesis in the Valhalla thread. But it looks like it isn't going to die on its own. I respectfully request that you take the initiative to take whatever issues you have with any of our allies to private channels, as per Article III of the Athens-Kronos treaty.

Thanks.

Way to silence the opposition Londo.

[Jgoods45]

Way to silence the opposition Londo.

lawl

We put that article in our treaties for a reason. We don't ever want to be put into a position where this back and forth between allies leads to a point where we will be forced to choose sides.

Edit: sentence at the end didn't make sense.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Jgoods45

[Jack Diorno]

This was an ill conceived plan that never had even a small chance of succeeding. She can keep the tally if she likes and we can sit here for months talking about it but those reps will never be part of the final agreement. If there is ever a final agreement that those facing NPO get to deliver. Tensions are already starting across CN. NPO will just wait until they break and take their chance. I honestly don;t see you guys outlasting them now. This was probably a fatal mistake.

Meh, yeah, see what happens, save my warchest mebe.

Way to silence the opposition Londo.

Nizzle is getting kinda disrespectful IMO, especially towards Revanche

[BamaBuc]

This was an ill conceived plan that never had even a small chance of succeeding. She can keep the tally if she likes and we can sit here for months talking about it but those reps will never be part of the final agreement. If there is ever a final agreement that those facing NPO get to deliver. Tensions are already starting across CN. NPO will just wait until they break and take their chance. I honestly don;t see you guys outlasting them now. This was probably a fatal mistake.

Yup. NPO is never gonna accept these terms at this point. I believe it was Revanche (if it wasn't, sorry) who said earlier that NPO was bluffing by not accepting the terms. First of all, you underestimate how stubbornly determined NPO can be. They won't back down on this. Second of all, if NPO is bluffing and is hoping you won't call their bluff, the result will be the same because eventually the reps will get to where it's just not feasible for NPO to back down. These addon reps keep growing, and they don't even know what the base reps are. Not telling them those was another fatal mistake. If people who want me dead ask me to take a leap of faith, no way am I doing it. I bet NPO's thinking along those lines.

It comes down to this. The Pacific Front has locked itself into a staring contest where everything (for the Karma side at least) rests on the enemy backing down. A staring contest with a stubborn enemy who has a limited time window where backing down is sensible, while Karma will always have the option to back down. Karma also has a limited though unknown timeframe before a new world war emerges and is a bigger threat than NPO. NPO has the option of waiting this war out and getting a good deal. Having ruled out the possibilities of NPO accepting this or Karma staying united forever, we can conclude that this can end two ways. Karma can back down and take the credibility hit. Or NPO can wait for the next big war and pull a UJW FAN. Plus, the longer this farce goes on, the closer the next war approaches, and the possibility increases that NPO will just wait it out even if Karma backs down on the addon terms.

-Bama

Edited June 5, 2009 by BamaBuc

[bkphysics]

It seems many believe the Karma front is just weaker in their resolve than the NPO and will not have the moxy to keep the fight going?

I don't know about others, but those who are still engaged on the Karma side seem pretty rigid in their continued warfare and seeing as to how long it took for the world to come to this war, the prospect of the NPO waiting for the next great war would seem a tough pill to swallow if you were an NPO, TPF, or Echelon grunt fighting the so called 'good fight'.

Though I carry no favor for the remaining hegemony sided alliances, I applaud them for their resolve to continue the fight despite having suffered such large losses. However, though i respect their toughness and determination, there comes a point when pride become foolishness and the endeavor is no longer necessary.

I tend to question why the remaining hegemony alliances refuse to surrender? Many, even on their own side consider the war a defeat, but yet they continue to resist surrendering?

[enderland]

It comes down to this. The Pacific Front has locked itself into a staring contest where everything (for the Karma side at least) rests on the enemy backing down. A staring contest with a stubborn enemy who has a limited time window where backing down is sensible, while Karma will always have the option to back down. Karma also has a limited though unknown timeframe before a new world war emerges and is a bigger threat than NPO. NPO has the option of waiting this war out and getting a good deal. Having ruled out the possibilities of NPO accepting this or Karma staying united forever, we can conclude that this can end two ways. Karma can back down and take the credibility hit. Or NPO can wait for the next big war and pull a UJW FAN. Plus, the longer this farce goes on, the closer the next war approaches, and the possibility increases that NPO will just wait it out even if Karma backs down on the addon terms.

-Bama

The thing is though, the alliance that mainly loses because of that is NPO, not those fighting them (sure they lose a bit now and will be hassled in their lower ranks for a long while, but in a month or more NPO's cash in that range will run out and it will become no different than FAN was). You say that everything requires NPO backing down - you are also forgetting that by allowing itself to remain in a war NPO actually furthers the cause of Karma, since by taking its beating now and getting terms in hell, even say a month, NPO ensures that they get to rebuild faster. Currently it appears their government does not desire that NPO ever be allowed to rebuild.

And I am sure that NPO is losing many millions, and probably billions each day its nations are either in peace mode or low infra, so the idea that the reps are really going to hurt more than waiting it out is rather childish.

For the purposes of example, why do we not use 100 nations in peace mode with an average infra of 10k who collect 15M a day. Each of those loses at least 7.5M a day (it is really more, but for the sake of this example, we'll use just 7.5M), which is 750M a day those nations are losing. Now, lets also assume that there are roughly 200 nations that have a lot of wonders and/or improvements from before the war and could greatly benefit with a simple 30M back collect to put them up to 3999 infra or so. Those nations are each losing lets say 5M a day from what they currently get to what they would be able to collect after a back collect, so right there is another 1 billion in losses that NPO is suffering. So from those 300 nations (about 50% of NPOs prewar membership that remains) NPO is losing almost two billion a day in income lost.

This also ignores the (presumably) large number of now small nations with warchests remaining who would have the ability for a large infra jump with their remaining funds, but now sit in either peace mode or are being attacked. Depending on the number of NPO nations in this situation this sum could be quite large and probably easily surpass the above sum. The opportunity cost of lost income from a post-war peace is also staggering and a figure that is easily in the tens of billions.

It's also clear that the NPO is losing a huge opportunity cost with respect to tech as well, not to mention that the tech that reps are going to require will hurt it even more - their tech situation is going in the opposite direction for multiple reasons, not just one. Same for those nations who are normally purchasing wonders and no longer have the cash to do this.

I would say that the current damage to NPO is quite good enough for those attacking to continue this plan. It damages NPO far more than any reparations or war against the remaining nations would and is quite effective at doing so.

But, I guess that NPO high command has not bothered to look at it in any sort of logical analysis under the assumption that it is a trick to get them to leave peace mode. Doesn't concern me in the slightest. It probably should concern some people it has not however.

[Haflinger]

It seems many believe the Karma front is just weaker in their resolve than the NPO and will not have the moxy to keep the fight going?

No, the argument is more that the NPO has more to lose.

At some point, the war will end, either with an NPO surrender or by the alliances attacking NPO going off the offensive.

The alliances attacking NPO appear to be pushing for an unconditional surrender at this point. The NPO's made it clear that they're not interested in that. They want to know what the terms will be before bringing their peace mode nations out, as those peace mode nations are the only leverage they have at the bargaining table.

Giving up all your leverage leads to an unconditional surrender. Karma seems to be putting the cart before the horse here.

I tend to question why the remaining hegemony alliances refuse to surrender? Many, even on their own side consider the war a defeat, but yet they continue to resist surrendering?

The NPO has, in this thread even, made it plainly clear that they are interested in negotiating peace terms right now. We've all seen the logs of the NPO negotiating for peace with Karma from early in the war.

They're not the ones resisting the surrender. It just doesn't get any more clear than that.

[bkphysics]

No, the argument is more that the NPO has more to lose.

At some point, the war will end, either with an NPO surrender or by the alliances attacking NPO going off the offensive.

The alliances attacking NPO appear to be pushing for an unconditional surrender at this point. The NPO's made it clear that they're not interested in that. They want to know what the terms will be before bringing their peace mode nations out, as those peace mode nations are the only leverage they have at the bargaining table.

Giving up all your leverage leads to an unconditional surrender. Karma seems to be putting the cart before the horse here.

When your only leverage is hiding in peace mode your really don't have much left. As well, the hypocrisy is rich in NPO wanting to know specific terms before giving up their PM nations as they did this exact same maneuver to a T with the FAN alliance. Either way, they want to control the surrender in some fashion and their inability to not only admit defeat, but to accept they have lost is just hindering them.

The NPO has, in this thread even, made it plainly clear that they are interested in negotiating peace terms right now. We've all seen the logs of the NPO negotiating for peace with Karma from early in the war.

They're not the ones resisting the surrender. It just doesn't get any more clear than that.

This has been addressed numerous times and not worth reopening. Their inability to accept defeat and understand they cannot control this situation much how they felt they did in GW1 is what is hindering their path to peace. Karma dictates the terms as they are the victor and it is not up to them to allow the defeated any concessions. We can him and haw repeatedly about eternal war, but the culpability of such an outcome is squarely placed at the feet of the NPO leadership.

[Lord Razzia]

ooh god. 143k tech and $4 billion? O____O

LOL wow I think that makes up for all the reps they forced others to pay maybe 2 times over?

they have the tech. Time to put those war chests into good use. haha

Edited June 5, 2009 by Lord Razzia

[BraveNewWorld]

Those reps are already to high for this thread to mean anything anymore. Brilliant plan Karma. Damn fine brain trust you have there.

ooh god. 143k tech and $4 billion? O____O

LOL wow I think that makes up for all the reps they forced others to pay maybe 2 times over?

they have the tech. Time to put those war chests into good use. haha

You can't possibly be serious? While these terms will probably approach a ridiculous amount that NPO will never pay, they are not there yet. NpO paid 100k in tech after the Friends > Infra war, 75% of which was sent out by only 28 nations who had been in peace mode. At the time we had less than 1/2 the members that NPO currently does.

If NPO were given similar terms to NpO it would likely be in the range of 200k tech, or equivalent tech and cash to be paid by their current peace-mode bankers. But I have no idea what Karma's intentions will be with their eventual terms, whether they will take a similar approach with Pacifica as was taken with Polaris or not.

[Matthew Conrad]

This was an ill conceived plan that never had even a small chance of succeeding. She can keep the tally if she likes and we can sit here for months talking about it but those reps will never be part of the final agreement. If there is ever a final agreement that those facing NPO get to deliver. Tensions are already starting across CN. NPO will just wait until they break and take their chance. I honestly don;t see you guys outlasting them now. This was probably a fatal mistake.

You scratch the surface of this. If NPO only took everything at face value and only looked at it from one facet like you have it has a dark future indeed.

[WcaesarD]

Well, they're called surrender terms for a reason, when the time does come when these sides finally hash hout a peace agreement, part of it might include a deal about the terms we're keeping track of here. Suppose they're a sticking point, and NPO offers an alternative that the forces of Karma find more attractive? It's possible, you know.

[Vol Navy]

I can easily see this going the way Bama says.

The next conflict is already heating up and what better time to attack than when a signifigant portion of your enemies are bogged down in a neverending war.

The next war kicks off and NPO's opponents find themselves facing each other on the battlefied, given the number of allinaces attacking NPO, that's very possible.

One side or the other would most likely work out a deal with NPO in the run up to the war to waive reps if they bring their nations out of peace to attack.

You can talk of having more resolve than NPO now. But will you still have more resolve when the next threat is crashing onto your shores? NPO has very little left to lose by doing it this way. It's enemies have much to lose by trying to defend themselves and keep eternal war on the NPO front at the same time. tC isn't around any more to suppress conflict like it was when FAN was kept in that state.

[WcaesarD]

I say we start a side pot on what the final total will actually reach. I'll throw 3 million at it reaching 30 billion. Anyone game?

I'll take the under on 30 bil, as long as we're not adding in tech as cash.

[Petrovich4]

I love the way people keep saying the 'next war is coming up around the corner' and we are all going to die, etc. Those people that are saying that are sympathetic to NPO (which isn't a bad thing! You just like them and/or leech onto them etc) and you can see the AAs tend to just be a select few alliances. You have every right to respectfully question/query us and we have every right to respectfully answer the large majority or ignore you if we personally feel we are talking to brick walls. We wouldn't be ignoring you because we are bad asses, but because it is futile for either of us to change our a priori's.

I strongly suggest everyone read ender's post thoroughly. Once again you are spot on - kudos! In the bluntest of fashions, I view this 'reps race' like this: if we have to take our tech through war by either capturing it or destroying it, then that's how it's gonna be. NPO has lost over half a million of tech and will continue to slide downwards. They are trying to slow/stop their slide by using their bloody hands but it will only get worse. The only thing they have to do is probably just put their hands up and say 'I give up'. But they probably won't. Probably.

Also, I enjoy the word 'fatal' being used as an adjective and it being placed in front of many words and directed at certain members/alliances of Karma, as if we are dead and or our ideas/policies. To assume that is a fatal mistake.

[Essenia]

But, I guess that NPO high command has not bothered to look at it in any sort of logical analysis under the assumption that it is a trick to get them to leave peace mode. Doesn't concern me in the slightest. It probably should concern some people it has not however.

They don't seem to understand the idea of opportunity costs. Their NS losses don't look too bad (60-70k a day and falling), but the opportunity cost is truly immense, in cash and in NS.

[Random]

Simply partaking in discussion does not make you a supporter of one side or another. I would like to think that in my time here I have been consistent in calling out people - both sides - when I see, in particular faulty argumentation style or things I disagree with. Simply disagreeing with someone does not make them my enemy.

That's not it at all. I have no problem with opposition but this guy has been continually insulting Karma alliances or individual members for awhile now. Notice in Tyga's avatar title he has "Blizzaro-Moo" in it? Yup Nizzle was the one that had said it to him as a way of insult. Now he's trying to make our MDP allies in Vanguard look like...actually I'm not really sure what he's trying to prove(honestly he's been "no this! oh wait no that!" there's no point to it) here but the demeanor is insulting. He comes into the thread acts like he's the messiah of morals and then when asked for factual evidence and logic he refuses and continues ranting on about his own morals trying to force it onto everyone. I absolutely despise people like him, simple as that.

[Lord Brendan]

It comes down to this. The Pacific Front has locked itself into a staring contest where everything (for the Karma side at least) rests on the enemy backing down. A staring contest with a stubborn enemy who has a limited time window where backing down is sensible, while Karma will always have the option to back down. Karma also has a limited though unknown timeframe before a new world war emerges and is a bigger threat than NPO. NPO has the option of waiting this war out and getting a good deal. Having ruled out the possibilities of NPO accepting this or Karma staying united forever, we can conclude that this can end two ways. Karma can back down and take the credibility hit. Or NPO can wait for the next big war and pull a UJW FAN. Plus, the longer this farce goes on, the closer the next war approaches, and the possibility increases that NPO will just wait it out even if Karma backs down on the addon terms.

-Bama

If all of NPO escapes to peace mode, and then in four months white peace is declared on the Pacific front due to a new war, who comes out ahead?

Definitely not the alliance that just spent four months in peace mode.

[BamaBuc]

The thing is though, the alliance that mainly loses because of that is NPO, not those fighting them (sure they lose a bit now and will be hassled in their lower ranks for a long while, but in a month or more NPO's cash in that range will run out and it will become no different than FAN was). You say that everything requires NPO backing down - you are also forgetting that by allowing itself to remain in a war NPO actually furthers the cause of Karma, since by taking its beating now and getting terms in hell, even say a month, NPO ensures that they get to rebuild faster. Currently it appears their government does not desire that NPO ever be allowed to rebuild.

And I am sure that NPO is losing many millions, and probably billions each day its nations are either in peace mode or low infra, so the idea that the reps are really going to hurt more than waiting it out is rather childish.

For the purposes of example, why do we not use 100 nations in peace mode with an average infra of 10k who collect 15M a day. Each of those loses at least 7.5M a day (it is really more, but for the sake of this example, we'll use just 7.5M), which is 750M a day those nations are losing. Now, lets also assume that there are roughly 200 nations that have a lot of wonders and/or improvements from before the war and could greatly benefit with a simple 30M back collect to put them up to 3999 infra or so. Those nations are each losing lets say 5M a day from what they currently get to what they would be able to collect after a back collect, so right there is another 1 billion in losses that NPO is suffering. So from those 300 nations (about 50% of NPOs prewar membership that remains) NPO is losing almost two billion a day in income lost.

This also ignores the (presumably) large number of now small nations with warchests remaining who would have the ability for a large infra jump with their remaining funds, but now sit in either peace mode or are being attacked. Depending on the number of NPO nations in this situation this sum could be quite large and probably easily surpass the above sum. The opportunity cost of lost income from a post-war peace is also staggering and a figure that is easily in the tens of billions.

It's also clear that the NPO is losing a huge opportunity cost with respect to tech as well, not to mention that the tech that reps are going to require will hurt it even more - their tech situation is going in the opposite direction for multiple reasons, not just one. Same for those nations who are normally purchasing wonders and no longer have the cash to do this.

I would say that the current damage to NPO is quite good enough for those attacking to continue this plan. It damages NPO far more than any reparations or war against the remaining nations would and is quite effective at doing so.

But, I guess that NPO high command has not bothered to look at it in any sort of logical analysis under the assumption that it is a trick to get them to leave peace mode. Doesn't concern me in the slightest. It probably should concern some people it has not however.

If NPO had been told what will happen when they come out, I'd agree with you. But as I said in my last post, I don't blame NPO for not taking a leap of faith for people who want to kill them. I'm not saying they're bad people or that this is a sham... But if someone who wants my alliance dead comes up to me and says "come out of hippy and we'll give you some kind of terms at some point", I'm not taking the deal. Who would take that leap of faith for people who want them dead?

Let's say NPO comes out, Karma doesn't give NPO peace terms for a month, they spend two weeks haggling, and peace is reached. By this point, a lot of warchests are depleted. The reps will fill their aid slots for several cycles, most likely. Let's say four cycles... I have no idea what the terms will be, but let's say it takes 40 days of full slots for the nations who still have warchests (after 3 months of war, 1 1/2 with no peace mode, there won't be many left with warchests). And we're assuming that NPO doesn't get a no-internal-aid clause. This scenario would mean that it would be nearly 3 months before NPO could begin to rebuild, plus a huge additional pounding from having everyone fighting... They'd be lucky to have a single nation above 1k infra or with the capacity to get there. Staying in hippy for 3-4 months and getting an easy deal would be much better.

This is just one scenario, it could be more or less. That's the point. They don't know what will happen. No one but Karma knows what NPO's terms will be or how promptly they will be offered should NPO come out. Would you take that leap of faith for people who want you dead?

-Bama

Edited June 5, 2009 by BamaBuc