New Pacific Order Reps Race

[enderland]

2nd Day in row today I think for the first time since the war that NPO attackers lost more score than NPO itself. This whole pre-terms and peace strategy seams to be leaning a bit towards NPO's side atm, it might swing the other side tomorrow, its war, lets see what happens.

To be fair, most of the NS loss in NPOs attackers is coming from nations that are below 15K NS and therefore easily rebuildable.

But every million lost in NPOs war nations is a million that won't come back anytime soon (well depends on how long this war goes I guess).

[shahenshah]

To be fair, most of the NS loss in NPOs attackers is coming from nations that are below 15K NS and therefore easily rebuildable.

But every million lost in NPOs war nations is a million that won't come back anytime soon (well depends on how long this war goes I guess).

I do not think there are many major NS nations left out of PM for NPO too.

Regarding the millions lost and all, obviously, NPO has taken most damage..more than anyone else in the game...but at the same time their opponents in Karma think that Karma has not achieved the victory that they are aiming for. And so far, it is evident that the pre-terms have failed to achieve what they set out to achieve. Give it a few days and the terms will start reaching ridiculous levels, such is the nature of uncontrolled stacking and if Karma backs down from those terms even one bit, it'll give Cyberverse generally and NPO specifically a good amount of word ammo to burn Karma internally and on OWF for more days and SOME will view it as first times of Karma waivering. Pride will need to swallowed at one point and realistic terms be discussed by both sides instead of both sides unintentionally reaching a situation of semi-ZI state at massive levels.

I personally think now its a battle of pride, resolve, revenge and reparations.

Edited June 9, 2009 by shahenshah

[SpiderJerusalem]

I am waiting for the pre-terms to exceed the total amount of money and tech in the game.

It is pretty obvious that they are not going for it now.

This is interesting...

I advise that we refuse this offer and press for better terms. - Prime minister johns

I guess they didn't follow your advice or else you would still have been in NPO, rite? But what does that mean. Did they accept the terms or didn't they press for better ones?

[shahenshah]

Btw, anyone got the list of all the alliances that are currently at war with NPO?

[Chickenzilla]

I noticed that Yorkshire was deleted. That's one NPOer in peace mode gone.

[Martijn]

Btw, anyone got the list of all the alliances that are currently at war with NPO?

As far as I know, these alliance still have active DoWs on NPO:

VE, Athens, GR, R&R, RoK, MOON, INT, Orion, DiCE, Vanguard, Avalanche, GOD, GUN, FOK, Sparta, UCR, =LOST=, Fly.

[Haflinger]

As far as I know, these alliance still have active DoWs on NPO:

VE, Athens, GR, R&R, RoK, MOON, INT, Orion, DiCE, Vanguard, Avalanche, GOD, GUN, FOK, Sparta, UCR, =LOST=, Fly.

Orion doesn't.

[shahenshah]

17 alliances and still they managed to slip more people into peace mode and post marginal losses mostly in range of less than 1.5k infra? No wonder people inside NPO probably think things are not as bad as Karma claims it to be, top it off with the stats they probably post of damage both sides are taking vis a vis the odds. I think the political loss of NPO is much greater than the NS loss and most people not doing the politics usually dont realise that..and generally with many alliances, few do the politics and run the show.

Edited June 9, 2009 by shahenshah

[enderland]

17 alliances and still they managed to slip more people into peace mode and post marginal losses mostly in range of less than 1.5k infra? No wonder people inside NPO probably think things are not as bad as Karma claims it to be, top it off with the stats they probably post of damage both sides are taking vis a vis the odds.

That's what happens when you have 500+ people below 10k NS (600 below 15k). It's hard to keep people on all of them always.

[shahenshah]

That's what happens when you have 500+ people below 10k NS (600 below 15k). It's hard to keep people on all of them always.

True and that is a good point. Generally the average player on Karma side in that range is less experienced than the ones on NPO side, given that several came down to that range from higher strengths. Another point in this regards is that %wise, Karma is loosing alot less compared to NPO, but if we're going to look at it based on aggregate numbers and given the ratio of odds and the ratio of damage done etc...than numbers swing towards NPO's side. Point being, when looking at all the numbers everywhere, NPO really has no credible and concrete incentive to come out of peace terms. These Pre-terms numbers will really start becoming absurd in few days/weeks...and they will only make things more undesirable for NPO to come out of peace mode with no credible or concrete guarantees, but instead more pre-term reps.

[Azaghul]

I do not think there are many major NS nations left out of PM for NPO too.

Regarding the millions lost and all, obviously, NPO has taken most damage..more than anyone else in the game...but at the same time their opponents in Karma think that Karma has not achieved the victory that they are aiming for. And so far, it is evident that the pre-terms have failed to achieve what they set out to achieve. Give it a few days and the terms will start reaching ridiculous levels, such is the nature of uncontrolled stacking and if Karma backs down from those terms even one bit, it'll give Cyberverse generally and NPO specifically a good amount of word ammo to burn Karma internally and on OWF for more days and SOME will view it as first times of Karma waivering. Pride will need to swallowed at one point and realistic terms be discussed by both sides instead of both sides unintentionally reaching a situation of semi-ZI state at massive levels.

I personally think now its a battle of pride, resolve, revenge and reparations.

These terms won't become unpayable for a long time, and are still far less for their size than what NPO has forced people to pay in the past who did nothing wrong and simply defend allies who were attacked for bankrupt reasons by NPO or its allies.

[Roadie]

These terms won't become unpayable for a long time, and are still far less for their size than what NPO has forced people to pay in the past who did nothing wrong and simply defend allies who were attacked for bankrupt reasons by NPO or its allies.

Moving beyond the 'these terms aren't as bad as what they've done before' argument for a moment, I'd like to ask at what point (amounts) do these terms become unpayable? The tech part of these terms, at least it looks to me, will be unpayable well before the cash part of it.

[Matthew Conrad]

True and that is a good point. Generally the average player on Karma side in that range is less experienced than the ones on NPO side, given that several came down to that range from higher strengths. Another point in this regards is that %wise, Karma is loosing alot less compared to NPO, but if we're going to look at it based on aggregate numbers and given the ratio of odds and the ratio of damage done etc...than numbers swing towards NPO's side.

I'd like to strongly disagree with this. First, I'd say the Karma side has more recent war experience than NPO and it has been said several times that they were better prepared overall for war. Second, the pure damage caused by NPO, coupled with the odds they faced, still doesn't throw the damage ratio in their favor. If you just do damage per average member with the number of wars on each side from the very beginning, you'll see the average Karma nation still does more damage than the average NPO nation.

[Haflinger]

I'd like to strongly disagree with this. First, I'd say the Karma side has more recent war experience than NPO and it has been said several times that they were better prepared overall for war. Second, the pure damage caused by NPO, coupled with the odds they faced, still doesn't throw the damage ratio in their favor. If you just do damage per average member with the number of wars on each side from the very beginning, you'll see the average Karma nation still does more damage than the average NPO nation.

Shah said in that range.

When you get down to the 10-20K nations range, a lot of the NPO nations have experienced nation rulers with what were formerly well-developed nations, and which often still have significant supplies of tech and wonders.

The people they're fighting against are your younger nations. That's just obvious.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Haflinger

[Azaghul]

Moving beyond the 'these terms aren't as bad as what they've done before' argument for a moment, I'd like to ask at what point (amounts) do these terms become unpayable? The tech part of these terms, at least it looks to me, will be unpayable well before the cash part of it.

Technically never, as there's no set time limit. Reasonably I'd say anything that takes over 6 months of most of their slot usage to pay off. 250 nations sending 4 slots of tech each (likely an average, some bigger ones sending all slots and some smaller ones just 3) can produce 50,000 tech every 10 days. Over a 6 month period that's 900,000 tech. In theory it could be a lot higher since 250 nations is only about a third their current member count. It's giving lots of leniency for more nations leaving, leaving room for rebuilding, not every nation being an active one, less than 100% optimal slot efficiency and organization, also having to pay off cash reps, etc.

[Roadie]

Technically never, as there's no set time limit. Reasonably I'd say anything that takes over 6 months of most of their slot usage to pay off. 250 nations sending 4 slots of tech each (likely an average, some bigger ones sending all slots and some smaller ones just 3) can produce 50,000 tech every 10 days. Over a 6 month period that's 900,000 tech. In theory it could be a lot higher since 250 nations is only about a third their current member count. It's giving lots of leniency for more nations leaving, leaving room for rebuilding, not every nation being an active one, less than 100% optimal slot efficiency and organization, also having to pay off cash reps, etc.

That seems ambitious to me. I don't see where one can reasonably expect them to be able to use all those slots as outgoing for terms. Many of those slots are going to be needed to send cash to the buyers of the tech, aren't they?

Edited June 9, 2009 by Roadie

[Heracles the Great]

That seems ambitious to me. I don't see where one can reasonably expect them to be able to use all those slots as outgoing for terms. Many of those slots are going to be needed to send cash to the buyers of the tech, aren't they?

I imagine the terms would require the larger nations to send their own tech

[Roadie]

I imagine the terms would require the larger nations to send their own tech

Ah. I should have been more clear. The tech number Azh used for what he would consider max is twice what NPO currently has. Which means they'd have to buy tech. Which, after they all get to zero tech, is cheap, but being able to buy only 50 or a hundred at a time relies on the people accepting the aid being able to do it in a very timely manner. If they don't, then tech starts to get more expensive and combined with he cash terms, would make would make it more difficult to pay off. There's only so much money.

[Heracles the Great]

Ah. I should have been more clear. The tech number Azh used for what he would consider max is twice what NPO currently has. Which means they'd have to buy tech. Which, after they all get to zero tech, is cheap, but being able to buy only 50 or a hundred at a time relies on the people accepting the aid being able to do it in a very timely manner. If they don't, then tech starts to get more expensive and combined with he cash terms, would make would make it more difficult to pay off. There's only so much money.

Ah I understand your point. But it should also be noticed that he only used 250 nations. If you expand the slots being used to the 750+ members that NPO has, it puts much less stress on each individual nation and allows the NPO banks to pay the smaller nations for the tech. And most larger nations, if they did sell down to 0 tech, would still have the infra to support an economy to easily purchase their own tech.

[Azaghul]

That seems ambitious to me. I don't see where one can reasonably expect them to be able to use all those slots as outgoing for terms. Many of those slots are going to be needed to send cash to the buyers of the tech, aren't they?

It's accounting for that by having only 4 slots per nation instead of 5 and based on 250 members and not their total member count of 738.

MK had about 65 nations out of 160-190 acting as tech producers, averaging about 4 slots each, producing around 9-10000 tech a cycle. We could have had a lot more people sending tech if we had really had too. I know because I organized it.

Ah. I should have been more clear. The tech number Azh used for what he would consider max is twice what NPO currently has. Which means they'd have to buy tech. Which, after they all get to zero tech, is cheap, but being able to buy only 50 or a hundred at a time relies on the people accepting the aid being able to do it in a very timely manner. If they don't, then tech starts to get more expensive and combined with he cash terms, would make would make it more difficult to pay off. There's only so much money.

You send out 4 aid offers or whatever, if one accepts every day, you're buying to 50 tech, one accepts one day , buying to 50 tech again, one accepts the 2nd day, etc. Transactions expire based on when they were offered, not accepted.

[Roadie]

It's accounting for that by having only 4 slots per nation instead of 5 and based on 250 members and not their total member count of 738.

MK had about 65 nations out of 160-190 acting as tech producers, averaging about 4 slots each, producing around 9-10000 tech a cycle. We could have had a lot more people sending tech if we had really had too. I know because I organized it.

You send out 4 aid offers or whatever, if one accepts every day, you're buying to 50 tech, one accepts one day , buying to 50 tech again, one accepts the 2nd day, etc. Transactions expire based on when they were offered, not accepted.

There must have been something left of MK for them to pay that much. What will be left of NPO remains to be seen.

[Azaghul]

There must have been something left of MK for them to pay that much. What will be left of NPO remains to be seen.

Even if their nations are all ZI'd, they'll still have tech, some left over warchests, and most importantly economic wonders and improvements on hand.

[Roadie]

Even if their nations are all ZI'd, they'll still have tech, some left over warchests, and most importantly economic wonders and improvements on hand.

It's numbers of nations I think that would be the biggest problem. These numbers all work out as of today, but a year from now everything these numbers are based on won't be there.

Edit: Also, for nations that go to ZI, there won't be any warchest left. They'll spend it to keep fighting. For the most part, anyway.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Roadie

[MTTezla]

Technically never, as there's no set time limit. Reasonably I'd say anything that takes over 6 months of most of their slot usage to pay off.

MK wants NPO to use the solid majority of their slots only for reps for a period of six months? MK paid off their terms in what, half a week? This is hardly justice.

[Lord Brendan]

MK wants NPO to use the solid majority of their slots only for reps for a period of six months? MK paid off their terms in what, half a week? This is hardly justice.

Man, if they paid those reps in half a week, pass along the cheat codes MK.

Seriously though, is that a joke? Their reps were 80k tech + cash for a 150-some member alliance. Even if they'd paid with max slots from every single nation it would have taken at least a month.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Lord Brendan