New Pacific Order Reps Race

[Nizzle]

WHEEEE we get 8 million tech.

I'd estimate that your reps guess is within 30% of the actual figure that will be asked, before this add on stuff. Note that I couldn't give an exact amount even if I wanted to, since not all alliances fighting NPO have weighed in on the question of reps. 10 days of remaining in peace mode will double the overall amount of tech in your estimate and increase the money by 60% or so, and 15-20 days from today will cause the total amount of tech reparations asked to be equal/close to the entire technology stockpile of NPO. So, either:

1) NPO comes out of peacemode and fights now, and we wrap up the war with heavy but manageable reps.

This is NOT going to happen, from what we have seen of NPO's response to our ultimatum. In my opinion, this option would be best for both Karma and NPO, but of course NPO doesn't know this because they haven't seen our terms.

2) The amount of reps to be paid (and duration of timed peace terms) increases to an extremely harsh level, and NPO is offered terms.

I'd look for this to happen eventually. NPO might or might not take the terms, rejection of the terms would lead to situation #3.

3) NPO chooses not to come out of peacemode for months and/or rejects any terms the NPO front gives it in hopes that we somehow fall apart.

This is essentially a FAN-style situation. Both parties have extremely high resolve, and the NPO's getting peace would be dependent on Karma falling apart/being attacked by a substantial outside force. I don't see this happening for many many months or even years, and I see this as only pulling the people on the NPO front together more in the postwar the longer it goes on. NPO membership levels would continue to fall over time, probably settling out somewhere around 200 members within the next 6 months but always slowly declining. This is the worst option for NPO.

While I disagree about the resolve of those attacking NPO lasting in a long war...your post is extremely accurate and well thought good sir.

[AirMe]

But we're supposed to be different!

Pacifica also didn't fight Polar. :divideby0:

[bbrownso]

But we're supposed to be different!

I thought Karma was supposed to be different? Oh well, this is just more proof that Planet Bob is cyclical.

Further Vilien: can you send me a list of how the Hegemony was responsible for all those alliances being destroyed in your sig? I've kept asking and I'd like to get a definitive viewpoint from a Karma alliance member. I'll take it in PM form. Thanks if you actually do it.

[Nizzle]

I feel that I really want to say a few things here. And therefore, I will.

First I want to address the OP and the whole issue of "peace mode reps". They are ridiculous. The fact that people I respect greatly have come forward with such a threat / term is just plain wrong. I agree that we need to get NPO out of peace mode. I certainly think that you are in a position that you've dreamed of being in for a long time, and I genuinely believe that you think this is the way to go.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

A better way to get what you want might have been that you first negotiate peace terms and then set up one of, some of or all of the following clauses:

• The war ends when no NPO nations are above a certain NS
  
• The war ends when all NPO nations have been out of peace mode for one week straight
  
• The war ends when NPO have reached a certain score or total NS
  
• The war ends when all NPO IOs / officials have reached ZI
  

etc, etc, etc.

This way, we won't get stacking terms that just end up being a joke, NPO will have an incentive to get out of peace mode, and a binding agreement will ensure that they won't be trampled forever, giving them an extra safety.

The second point I want to voice my opinion on is the way people are baaawwwing when terms are brought up at all.

No, it is not hypocritical to give NPO harsh terms because of this war. This is something they brought on themselves and they most certainly deserve it. It is hypocritical however to be as greedy as some of you seem to be. Monetary reps are not the only way to penalize them. Yes, of course OV deserves a massive amount of monetary aid. Yes of course you should get minor compensations for entering this war. The issue here however is not to gain from this, but to make it hard for such a hegemony to arise once more. Here are some ideas I've seen tossed around and some I've come to think of myself:

• No NPO nation get to use his / her aidslots for a given time (except for paying reps)
  
• All factories and / or labour camps must be destroyed for a given time
  
• No NPO nation can have more than a set amount of infra in a given time period(e.g, no NPO nation can be more than 6000 infra in the next 6 months)
  
• NPO must give up the moldavi and / or the revenge doctrines
  
• No NPO nation can buy a national wonder for the next 6 months
  

etc, etc, etc.

These will certainly accomplish the long term goal in a much better way, and it wouldn't make you sink to their level

The third point I want to take a look at is magicninja.

Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim

Seriously, put a sock in it

Another excellent post, with some things in there I would like to see in peace terms.

I thought Karma was supposed to be different? Oh well, this is just more proof that Planet Bob is cyclical.

Further Vilien: can you send me a list of how the Hegemony was responsible for all those alliances being destroyed in your sig? I've kept asking and I'd like to get a definitive viewpoint from a Karma alliance member. I'll take it in PM form. Thanks if you actually do it.

There is a thread on this topic by Electron Sponge.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Nizzle

[Haflinger]

Where were you makeing this point for your entire CN carrear before now? (not on topic, but still would like to know the answer)

In Invicta

We've always believed in practical considerations coming first.

To be clear, your saying that to consider NPO's past actions, as well as any sort of comparative monetary reparations, when giving them terms is "wrong"? If your answer to this question is yes, then please provide an answer to why you think that, and with a bit more detail and reasoning then the vague lofty sentiment you expressed above.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far.

However you need to start first with an analysis of what it is possible to accomplish in any given situation. Then you figure out what you want to do, and figure out a practical means of getting there. The problem with lazy thinkers is you tend to start first with what you want to ideally accomplish, and then try to come up with a plan that lets you get there. This can work if it so happens that what you want is actually possible, but it tends to backfire when it's not.

Warchests during that war were smaller than they are now. On my nation during that war I spent on average around 15 million a day against 6 opponents, or 120 mill per round. Fighting 3 opponents when near ZI it was just 7 mill a day, which would have been about 60 mill per round. I didn't have a WRC or maintain a navy (which hurt on losing more aircraft which I attacked with every day) but the point it still stands. It can take months for a nation with a billion dollars+ to run out of money. They only need a fraction of it (100 mill or so to instantly rebuild into the mid ranks.

Do they really have hundreds of billion-dollar warchests?

And ... no. Based on conversations I've had with people actually fighting in this war, a billion dollars is about enough for a month of war for a large nation. If they come out of peace, they have to assume that the war's gonna be over in 2 weeks, or even their best-prepared nations are going to be hammered past the point of no return.

They're not TOP or Grämlins.

[Il Impero Romano]

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far.

So if you agree that there is nothing wrong with any reparations or terms that NPO receives reflecting their past actions, what exactly have you been arguing this entire thread?

Also, I did not quote the rest of your response because I'm not quite sure how that applies.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[Haflinger]

So if you agree that there is nothing wrong with any reparations or terms that NPO receives reflecting their past actions, what exactly have you been arguing this entire thread?

Practical concerns.

If you want the war to end, you need to persuade NPO to accept surrender terms. My argument has been directed at helping you understand their POV.

[Azaghul]

If we are talking about what NPO deserves for this war, then I see only a few alliances that deserve reps at all: OV, VE, GOD, Vanguard and GUN. That is it. They are only the alliances that can claim to have entered the war in defensive fashion. NPO has not declared on anyone except OV and only the named alliances have defense pacts with OV and declared in its defense. The others are all aggressive declarations and I personally do not believe that alliances that declare aggressively should be entitled to reps. So, as far I am concerned, Sparta, FOK, RoK, Athens, et al. are entitled to nothing.

Needless to say, this is just my personal view based on my own code of ethics and obviously I do not speak for NPO as a whole.

Carry on.

Since you're NPO I think this is a valid question: do you think NPO deserved 54,000 tech from MK (NPO's share of those reps) when both were several steps removed from the original conflict? How about Athens paying 8,000 tech to NPO (out of 14,000 that it had) when it didn't even do much damage?

[Vladimir]

You were given an option. You rejected the terns. How is this Karmas fault again ?

Given the size of NPO and supposed skill of NPOs banking team these reps aren't that harsh. I taught NPO could move BILLIONS each aid cycle ?

To all who object to giving NPO harsh terms I present to you GW1

You should read on, for the flaw in your position is well noted [1]. The NPO could move TRILLIONS or ZILLIONS or XUTABITALILLIONS and still not pay off the reps for all we know, because these 'pre-terms' are in addition to secret terms that no one will tell us, and in fact, that seem to either concretely exist, be in progress, exist but be subject to change on a whim (the only real reason for them to be secret), or be impossible to create until the war is over, depending on who you ask [see: this thread].

And as I already noted, even if they do exist in a concrete form (which seems incredibly unlikely given what has been said here), the fact that they are a secret means that for the purposes of our decision making they do not. And, of course, the entire point of these pre-terms is to destroy all large nations capable of moving large amounts of cash in any case -- we may be skilled, but we can't break the laws of physics, contrary to the views of some of the more paranoid.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Vladimir

[Echoic]

As others have said previously. We were supposed to be better than this. Just give them and number, however high and lets be done with this before we look in the mirror and see that we've become worse than them.

[Roadie]

Since you're NPO I think this is a valid question: do you think NPO deserved 54,000 tech from MK (NPO's share of those reps) when both were several steps removed from the original conflict? How about Athens paying 8,000 tech to NPO (out of 14,000 that it had) when it didn't even do much damage?

He answered your question in the post you quoted.

[Il Impero Romano]

Practical concerns.

If you want the war to end, you need to persuade NPO to accept surrender terms. My argument has been directed at helping you understand their POV.

I'm glad to hear you agree idologically at least that there is nothing wrong with takeing NPO's past actions into account.

But, as for practical concerns, it is important to note that nowhere in the decision that was handed to NPO is there mention of their compliance with said decision effecting the issuance of peace terms, and no formal peace terms have been issued to them or rejected by them since the beginning of this conflict (which the logs of everyone has seen).

Therefore, the comment made here by Vladimir...

For the record, the Order has already rejected these terms outright, so all this discussion is academic. At this point it is no more than an excuse to continue attacks into eternity (which, in my opinion, given the manner in which these 'pre-terms' are presented, is their purpose).

...appears to be a product of a misunderstanding. In all actuality, there was nothing for Pacifica to reject, as it was only a simple notification of the penalty for remaining in peace mode. No where does it state that they will be kept in perpetual warfare if they did not make things easy on themselves and remove their nations from peace. There is no reason then to persuade them to accept surrender terms, as none have been given in any way, shape, or form.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[KingSuck]

seriously?

[Vilien]

You should read on, for the flaw in your position is well noted [1]. The NPO could move TRILLIONS or ZILLIONS or XUTABITALILLIONS and still not pay off the reps for all we know, because these 'pre-terms' are in addition to secret terms that no one will tell us, and in fact, that seem to either concretely exist, be in progress, exist but be subject to change on a whim (the only real reason for them to be secret), or be impossible to create until the war is over, depending on who you ask [see: this thread].

And as I already noted, even if they do exist in a concrete form (which seems incredibly unlikely given what has been said here), the fact that they are a secret means that for the purposes of our decision making they do not. And, of course, the entire point of these pre-terms is to destroy all large nations capable of moving large amounts of cash in any case -- we may be skilled, but we can't break the laws of physics, contrary to the views of some of the more paranoid.

I posit that the NPO can move 'Skillions of dollars in a day. Prove me wrong!

[Haflinger]

I'm glad to hear you agree idologically at least that there is nothing wrong with takeing NPO's past actions into account.

Ideologically?

My man, I was criticizing using ideology as the basis of actions in war entirely. What I said was you first have to see what your options are.

The problem with ideologues is that you wind up picking an option which isn't there.

[Marty McFly]

Has the NPO ever made the secret terms they made Polar accept public?

Aren't they obvious? I wasn't around back then and I can even see what they were.

[AirMe]

Aren't they obvious? I wasn't around back then and I can even see what they were.

That wasn't the question. As obvious as they might be they never made them public.

EDIT: 1 too little as.

Edited May 28, 2009 by AirMe

[Azaghul]

You should read on, for the flaw in your position is well noted [1]. The NPO could move TRILLIONS or ZILLIONS or XUTABITALILLIONS and still not pay off the reps for all we know, because these 'pre-terms' are in addition to secret terms that no one will tell us, and in fact, that seem to either concretely exist, be in progress, exist but be subject to change on a whim (the only real reason for them to be secret), or be impossible to create until the war is over, depending on who you ask [see: this thread].

And as I already noted, even if they do exist in a concrete form (which seems incredibly unlikely given what has been said here), the fact that they are a secret means that for the purposes of our decision making they do not. And, of course, the entire point of these pre-terms is to destroy all large nations capable of moving large amounts of cash in any case -- we may be skilled, but we can't break the laws of physics, contrary to the views of some of the more paranoid.

Three things

1) Has NPO ever released the terms it was going to give to an alliance before it was ready to negotiate and give peace? If not why not?

2) You are either not reading the thread or are intentionally obtuse, I've already pointed out numerous times that those nations will still be able to start paying reps within a short period of time because of the improvements, wonders, and left over warchests they will still have on hand.

3) Your contention that they don't exist because those fighting you won't give them to you yet is silly. You still know that you'll be getting higher reps for sticking it out in peace mode.

[Heft]

Three things

1) Has NPO ever released the terms it was going to give to an alliance before it was ready to negotiate and give peace? If not why not?

This is an impossible comparison for you to try and justify, because the NPO never would have given these sorts of "pre-terms" for largely the same reasons they wouldn't release (or usually decide on) terms until it was time for peace. So you can't use that reasoning (locks you into a commitment, need to see how things unfold/how they behave, inflexible, etc) since you've already broken it.

3) Your contention that they don't exist because those fighting you won't give them to you yet is silly. You still know that you'll be getting higher reps for sticking it out in peace mode.

You're missing the point. For all anyone outside of Karma command knows, those reps may be 3 million or 3 trillion. There's no way they can incorporate such a variable into their decision making, because it is impossible for them to have any accurate estimate of what it may be. Therefore, as far as they're concerned, it may as well not exist at all.

[King Srqt]

This is an impossible comparison for you to try and justify, because the NPO never would have given these sorts of "pre-terms" for largely the same reasons they wouldn't release (or usually decide on) terms until it was time for peace. So you can't use that reasoning (locks you into a commitment, need to see how things unfold/how they behave, inflexible, etc) since you've already broken it.

Sure they have, they did it to GATO, they told GATO that their nations had to come out of PM or they would be PZId that is a term not only to the individual nations but to the alliance as a whole (unless you want to sit here and argue that NPO would have allowed GATO to keep and defend those members with no consequence after the war)

[Azaghul]

This is an impossible comparison for you to try and justify, because the NPO never would have given these sorts of "pre-terms" for largely the same reasons they wouldn't release (or usually decide on) terms until it was time for peace. So you can't use that reasoning (locks you into a commitment, need to see how things unfold/how they behave, inflexible, etc) since you've already broken it.

These aren't pre-terms, just a declaration about what the terms will be based on NPO's actions. The only part that are "pre-terms" is telling NPO they won't get peace while they have all those nations in peace mode, which is something NPO has done in the past.

You're missing the point. For all anyone outside of Karma command knows, those reps may be 3 million or 3 trillion. There's no way they can incorporate such a variable into their decision making, because it is impossible for them to have any accurate estimate of what it may be. Therefore, as far as they're concerned, it may as well not exist at all.

Vladimir if I'm reading it right is trying to assert that the added numbers are meaningless because they are on top of a variable number. Problem is that number isn't really variable, it just hasn't been released yet.

[Haflinger]

Vladimir if I'm reading it right is trying to assert that the added numbers are meaningless because they are on top of a variable number. Problem is that number isn't really variable, it just hasn't been released yet.

Any unknown number is by definition variable. Tell me what number I'm thinking of.

[Vladimir]

I cannot argue with you, Vilien. I heard that Cortath has a secret formula that turns kittens into solid kitten-shaped gold.

...appears to be a product of a misunderstanding. In all actuality, there was nothing for Pacifica to reject, as it was only a simple notification of the penalty for remaining in peace mode. No where does it state that they will be kept in perpetual warfare if they did not make things easy on themselves and remove their nations from peace. There is no reason then to persuade them to accept surrender terms, as none have been given in any way, shape, or form.

The semantics were already discussed and dismissed as irrelevant earlier in the thread.

Look around this thread and you will see every Karma official promoting the idea of eternal war. They just choose to blame us for it -- because obviously they don't want to be at war with us, they tried to get out but we just keep sucking them back in with our peace mode. The reason for this is that eternal war is built into the terms themselves, since they add 2 days onto the war for every 1 day that a single 5k+ nation is in peace mode, meaning that so long as said single nation is in peace mode the war continues and increases into unto perpetuity -- so much confidence is there in this that I even saw Bob Janova proudly boasting the other day that your actions would make NPO nations quit the game (obviously to set them free and... liberty and... feed the children?).

1) Has NPO ever released the terms it was going to give to an alliance before it was ready to negotiate and give peace? If not why not?

2) You are either not reading the thread or are intentionally obtuse, I've already pointed out numerous times that those nations will still be able to start paying reps within a short period of time because of the improvements, wonders, and left over warchests they will still have on hand.

3) Your contention that they don't exist because those fighting you won't give them to you yet is silly. You still know that you'll be getting higher reps for sticking it out in peace mode.

1) We have never given ridiculous 'pre-terms' like this, so there has been no need.

2) Your aim is to cripple us economically. I posit that as a result of this our economy would suffer. And you completely missed the point. Our banks may be good, but until Corath shares his secret formula they cannot pay infinite dollars a day.

3) You are definitely not reading the thread. I am not saying that they do not exist because we cannot see them (though in all probability they do not), I am saying that they do not exist for the purposes of our decision making because you will not show them to us, and as such could be anything and could be changed to anything at a whim -- which in turn makes the entire idea of these pre-term penalties completely meaningless.

[Marty McFly]

That wasn't the question. As obvious as they might be they never made them public.

EDIT: 1 too little as.

Ah, misread your post

[Azaghul]

Look around this thread and you will see every Karma official promoting the idea of eternal war. They just choose to blame us for it -- because obviously they don't want to be at war with us, they tried to get out but we just keep sucking them back in with our peace mode. The reason for this is that eternal war is built into the terms themselves, since they add 2 days onto the war for every 1 day that a single 5k+ nation is in peace mode, meaning that so long as said single nation is in peace mode the war continues and increases into unto perpetuity -- so much confidence is there in this that I even saw Bob Janova proudly boasting the other day that your actions would make NPO nations quit the game (obviously to set them free and... liberty and... feed the children?).

No wonder, you apparently haven't even read it. Peace terms, not the war itself, will be extended every two days for every day after that date that an NPO nation above 5K NS is in peace mode.

1) We have never given ridiculous 'pre-terms' like this, so there has been no need.

Except for GATO, right?

2) Your aim is to cripple us economically. I posit that as a result of this our economy would suffer. And you completely missed the point. Our banks may be good, but until Corath shares his secret formula they cannot pay infinite dollars a day.

Aid slots limit that to 18 mill every 10 days anyway. That only requires a mid sized nation, as I've pointed out numerous times.

3) You are definitely not reading the thread. I am not saying that they do not exist because we cannot see them (though in all probability they do not), I am saying that they do not exist for the purposes of our decision making because you will not show them to us, and as such could be anything and could be changed to anything at a whim -- which in turn makes the entire idea of these pre-term penalties completely meaningless.

What logical connection do you have to say that it makes these "pre-terms" (they aren't pre-terms) meaningless?

The point is, numbers have generally been decided upon and won't be changed based on the peace mode penalties. The peace-mode penalties are meaningful and will be on top of what else you have to pay. You know that you will be having to pay that extra amount (if you aren't opting for indefinite war) and there's no reason that can't be added into your calculations. You don't need to know the exact figures it will be added onto (which Londo already hinted at to give a ballpark figure) for it to be meaningful.