The GATO Lesson?

[Kevlar]

While undoubtedly GATO will continue to be a minor focal point of the continued debate raging over Karma’s war, I still maintain that the only groups who legitimately can talk about our past are GATO, IAA, and the rare pockets of support we had. Understandably, a man can fight for whatever reason he wishes, and if the treatment of GATO is going to be lumped into that, then so be it. I think you’d be wrong to include us, but to each his own. But it won’t evoke any sympathy from me. If GATO and NPO have a troubled past, then it is something for GATO and NPO to resolve.

Perhaps the most important lesson I have taken from our war with NPO is that it absolutely sucks when you are forced into a corner with no voice to speak with. The policy of perma-ZI for peace mode nations was forced upon us, not because we lacked the will to fight it, but because the community as a whole did little to prevent it. Further, we passed every day wondering IF terms would ever be presented to us, not when. Frankly, the combination of the two was a downright atrocity.

But with that in mind, I would never wish that upon another alliance—even NPO. I don’t believe they deserve an element of reciprocity similar to what we received. I think if Karma wants to really change the landscape of war, they need to do so with clear and evident intentions. Right now, the only intention seems to be destruction. And as a member of an alliance that believed the very same thing, such a war disgusts me.

Further, I think it’s a folly to produce demands that threaten to worsen peace terms that at this time do not exist nor presume to exist at any point. NPO is right to fight against it. Having to abandon your dignity is something no alliance wants to do, nor should have to do. If there was a lesson to learn from the treatment of GATO, which this war presumes to right, then it has been lost somewhere.

Thanks,

-Kev

[Jipps]

Interesting point Kevlar. It is very noble of you to wat to prevent the harsh policies of past surrenders instead of having a vendetta.

[Azaghul]

Those fighting NPO intend to give NPO terms eventually and that is pretty clear, so I don't think the situation is very comparable. They just, as far as I know and justifiably, refuse to give an exact time frame in order to avoid getting manipulated.

Just because peace terms haven't been given doesn't mean they don't exist.

[SpoiL]

I disagree. I think they certainly deserve to be pulled out of peace mode. Losing a war and surrendering is something no alliance wants to do. But they lost. The lesson should not be learned from GATO, but from NPO. That lesson is don't teach the GATO lesson because, oh crap, it could be done to us.

[Cirrus]

Neither reciprocity nor destruction is the point, though destruction is a means.

The end for which we fight is freedom from oppression by the NPO empire. The only means by which that end can be achieved is to cause an adequate level of destruction to the machinery of that empire, including the diplomatic, military and economic supports on which it stands. History shows that where the imperial aspirations of NPO are concerned, partial destruction of those supports is not adequate to ensure freedom, thus a more total destruction is necessary, potentially including nations in peace mode.

This applies only to NPO itself. The other various hangers-on, puppets and imperial subjects are not serious threats on their own, and therefore lesser levels of destruction among them is adequate.

[magicninja]

Kev is saying hash out any problems you have with NPO for yourself. Don't use GATO as an excuse or use what we had as terms as a guide for what punishment NPO is given. We don't need Karma punishing NPO for what they did to us. Especially when 97% of Karma alliances did nothing at the time or we're on the other side fighting GATO and her allies in the first place.

[Mack Truck]

Kev is saying hash out any problems you have with NPO for yourself. Don't use GATO as an excuse or use what we had as terms as a guide for what punishment NPO is given. We don't need Karma punishing NPO for what they did to us. Especially when 97% of Karma alliances did nothing at the time or we're on the other side fighting GATO and her allies in the first place.

Playing the "Where were you when we needed help dude" card is kind of silly. If I disliked GATO I could say "Way to bail on us (NAAC) in GW3, dude". I don't dislike GATO though, and I wouldn't care if someone from GATO ever mentioned something that could warrant the comeback. What the NPO did to GATO doesn't require a personal connection to reference and in any case their terms aren't the same.

[magicninja]

Playing the "Where were you when we needed help dude" card is kind of silly. If I disliked GATO I could say "Way to bail on us (NAAC) in GW3, dude". I don't dislike GATO though, and I wouldn't care if someone from GATO ever mentioned something that could warrant the comeback. What the NPO did to GATO doesn't require a personal connection to reference and in any case their terms aren't the same.

That's not the point. Playing the "You did something to those guys over there but we didn't care enough at the time to do anything about it so we're gonna punish you for it now (even though we still don't care about them) that we have the leverage and suits our wants" card is making you all look really full of yourselves.

[Kindom of Goon]

Its not so muc about GATO as it is the actions that were used against GATO. I don't think anyone is pretending that they're getting justice for you guys or that they care, they're just pointing out some of the 'atrocities' commited by NPO, you just happen to be one of the victims.

[Blacky]

Perhaps the most important lesson I have taken from our war with NPO is that it absolutely sucks when you are forced into a corner with no voice to speak with. The policy of perma-ZI for peace mode nations was forced upon us, not because we lacked the will to fight it, but because the community as a whole did little to prevent it. Further, we passed every day wondering IF terms would ever be presented to us, not when. Frankly, the combination of the two was a downright atrocity.

You see that's the thing, it could have been any one of us. It didn't neccessarily have to happen to GATO alone, any small and defeated party could have been subject to similar terms under the previous hegemony.

The community at a time had no focal point, and would not make an opposition worthy of the name against the unaware meatshields which NPO surrounded itself with, feeding on the propoganda, suckling on Moo-Cows udder to make a metaphor.

And so injustices such as that were allowed to slide, and much less was done than many of us would have liked. And so in order to prevent such atrocities from ever happening again, there needs to be justitce in the most carnal sense. An eye for an eye. The wrongs can never be righted, that much is true. But we can attempt to create a new system whereby no power is left unchecked. The lead up to this war created such a system, and now that system is even more powerful than ever before. Nobody will be a power unto themselves in June 09. And so we should embrace this new system and never forget how things were. GATO made history being the pinnacle of the unchecked power of the hegemony, and I for one will never forget that.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Blacky

[Bob Janova]

While you have a justifiable annoyance with people claiming to be doing things 'for GATO', the actions NPO/One Vision undertook against GATO were an injustice, and highlighting that as one of the sources of righteous anger against the abusive hegemony is fair enough.

[Cirrus]

This revolution is not about GATO.

[magicninja]

While you have a justifiable annoyance with people claiming to be doing things 'for GATO', the actions NPO/One Vision undertook against GATO were an injustice, and highlighting that as one of the sources of self-righteous anger against the abusive hegemony is fair enough.

You don't get to use people when it is convenient for you. Where was all that righteous anger at the time?

Also fixed.

[magicninja]

This revolution is not about GATO.

Then stop bringing us up as a reason for it.

[Londo Mollari]

While undoubtedly GATO will continue to be a minor focal point of the continued debate raging over Karma’s war, I still maintain that the only groups who legitimately can talk about our past are GATO, IAA, and the rare pockets of support we had. Understandably, a man can fight for whatever reason he wishes, and if the treatment of GATO is going to be lumped into that, then so be it. I think you’d be wrong to include us, but to each his own. But it won’t evoke any sympathy from me. If GATO and NPO have a troubled past, then it is something for GATO and NPO to resolve.

Perhaps the most important lesson I have taken from our war with NPO is that it absolutely sucks when you are forced into a corner with no voice to speak with. The policy of perma-ZI for peace mode nations was forced upon us, not because we lacked the will to fight it, but because the community as a whole did little to prevent it. Further, we passed every day wondering IF terms would ever be presented to us, not when. Frankly, the combination of the two was a downright atrocity.

But with that in mind, I would never wish that upon another alliance—even NPO. I don’t believe they deserve an element of reciprocity similar to what we received. I think if Karma wants to really change the landscape of war, they need to do so with clear and evident intentions. Right now, the only intention seems to be destruction. And as a member of an alliance that believed the very same thing, such a war disgusts me.

Further, I think it’s a folly to produce demands that threaten to worsen peace terms that at this time do not exist nor presume to exist at any point. NPO is right to fight against it. Having to abandon your dignity is something no alliance wants to do, nor should have to do. If there was a lesson to learn from the treatment of GATO, which this war presumes to right, then it has been lost somewhere.

Thanks,

-Kev

We certainly do plan to offer NPO terms in due course.

But NPO isn't interested in accepting any terms other than those they would dictate. They are fighting the war with the assumption of eventual victory if they continue to fight long enough. They believe that our resolve will start to crack and they will be able to make separate peaces with some of us. Then they plan to divide and conquer and hunt us down and destroy us one by one. This war will continue until the NPO has given up playing to win it, because it will only be then that they have been truly defeated at all. We are united in our resolve. We will not flinch or falter. NPO may not either, but this will be tantamount to a refusal to surrender. There is a path to peace here for NPO to take, and it is a peace that involves admitting defeat and playing by our rules. There is also the path of war.

The choice is theirs to make.

But this war will not end on their terms. It will end on ours.

[Bob Janova]

You don't get to use people when it is convenient for you. Where was all that righteous anger at the time?

Also fixed.

Hey does this count as righteous anger?

o/ Fair terms – Magicninja

Haha, well whatever consequences come GATO earned them. – you again

Give me a break, you are just playing to the crowd, you don't have any consistent line at all.

Much of Karma was at that time allied to Pacifica so the public criticism is muted. I know I had some serious outrage at the time, but I didn't post it on the public boards. There are some interesting things said in the peace mode thread though ...

Death to peace mode. – Bilrow (now military IO and responsible for alliance-wide peace mode)

Oh, and also do something about it. – Bakunin

If you don't want to fight, surrender when terms are offered; don't sit in hippy mode and pretend you've been riding it out and not backing down. – more Bakunin

Hiding in peace mode instead of fighting is cowardly. – MaskOfBlue

And from now-Karmans:

Smart move. Can't say I agree with it tho. – LJ Scott

Here's Azaghul suggesting an alternative to the NPO's awful policy that is quite close to what is being asked of NPO now.

... and for laughs

I am, however, sure about how I feel about Pacifica. I look to them with nothing less than the highest regard and utmost respect. – pezstar. How times change

[magicninja]

Hey does this count as righteous anger?

o/ Fair terms – Magicninja

Haha, well whatever consequences come GATO earned them. – you again

Give me a break, you are just playing to the crowd, you don't have any consistent line at all.

Much of Karma was at that time allied to Pacifica so the public criticism is muted. I know I had some serious outrage at the time, but I didn't post it on the public boards. There are some interesting things said in the peace mode thread though ...

Death to peace mode. – Bilrow (now military IO and responsible for alliance-wide peace mode)

Oh, and also do something about it. – Bakunin

If you don't want to fight, surrender when terms are offered; don't sit in hippy mode and pretend you've been riding it out and not backing down. – more Bakunin

Hiding in peace mode instead of fighting is cowardly. – MaskOfBlue

And from now-Karmans:

Smart move. Can't say I agree with it tho. – LJ Scott

Here's Azaghul suggesting an alternative to the NPO's awful policy that is quite close to what is being asked of NPO now.

... and for laughs

I am, however, sure about how I feel about Pacifica. I look to them with nothing less than the highest regard and utmost respect. – pezstar. How times change

You left out my first posts where I was disappointed by the announcement. No so much what was contained but the motive I guess. Still I never claimed to be the harbinger of good and that is the difference.

[lebubu]

You left out my first posts where I was disappointed by the announcement. No so much what was contained but the motive I guess. Still I never claimed to be the harbinger of good and that is the difference.

Never, at any point, did Karma declare that her goal was to define the standards of surrender terms or to usher in an era of peace, happiness, and love. It did not do this because it quite simply cannot.

Next.

[Brotherington]

The leaders of the NPO forfeitted their right to dignity through their apaulling treatment of others. Decent people would not have abused their position the way they did, they deserve no sympathy and no mercy.

[neneko]

Wow aren't we all high and mighty. This war is about NPOs past crimes, not about GATO. A wifebeater will get arrested even if the wife says that he only does it because he loves her.

Your stockholms syndrome could not matter less to the ones that's actually fighting. If you want to sit on the sidelines and play morally superior then go ahead but don't think for a second that we're doing this for your alliances sake.

You speak of nobody standing up for you in the past yet here you sit critisizing the actions of a group of people and saying that they're only interested in destruction while you're not lifting a finger to help the ones you're so quick to protect with pretty words.

Secondly I think it's funny how all the alliances that actually do get very lenient or no terms in this war never prove anything. Karma is always all about crushing and burning and is "just as bad as them" no matter how many alliances we give white peace to.

Edited May 27, 2009 by neneko

[Dochartaigh]

frankly, if Polaris deserved to get rolled and harsh terms, then Pacifica sure as hell does. All those people out there whining, pissing, and moaning about Pacifica possibly get harsh terms, were in large part the ones that handed terms to Polaris or fought against Polaris/crew in the SPW.

so since ya'll sure as hell thought Polaris warranted harsh terms (not just GATO, GPA, and the many others) then Pacifica deserves it as well. cuz i coulda sworn the reason Polaris was rolled was for past crimes, same as with Pacifica now.

so if Pacifica gets off with a slap on the wrist, then it is just pathetic. of all alliances, they deserve to be rolled and presented with harsh terms just as Polaris was.

[Haflinger]

I think it's a bit too late to suggest Pacifica is gonna get off with a slap on the wrist. They've lost more NS than TOP has, including roughly half their tech.

Now you can argue about how far to take it, but slap on the wrist - well in order to pull THAT one off they'd have to win the war and then impose some pretty harsh reps of their own on Karma.

[potato]

Next.

He also did NOT express any disappointement in any of the threads referenced (the PZI for Peace Mode nations in GATO and the surrender terms). Magic may have "felt" it but he certainly didn't show it on the boards.

I think it's a bit too late to suggest Pacifica is gonna get off with a slap on the wrist. They've lost more NS than TOP has, including roughly half their tech.

Now you can argue about how far to take it, but slap on the wrist - well in order to pull THAT one off they'd have to win the war and then impose some pretty harsh reps of their own on Karma.

It's been said many many times but this white peace thing was never ever mentionned when it came to the "core of Hegemony". You can try and pull this PR card but we both know it's !@#$%^&*. I don't have a say in the terms for Pacifica but I believe it's been made clear from the start that they wouldn't be receiving just a slap on the wrist.

As for the winning part, I eagerly await Vladimir's essay.

Edited May 27, 2009 by potato

[Azaghul]

You left out my first posts where I was disappointed by the announcement. No so much what was contained but the motive I guess. Still I never claimed to be the harbinger of good and that is the difference.

Note that I actually did protest the policy very loudly in that thread, but because of its application to those legitimately using it as a war tactic and acknowledge that punishing those who tried to ride out the war in peace mode to escape damage deserved some reasonable punishment.

[magicninja]

Note that I actually did protest the policy very loudly in that thread, but because of its application to those legitimately using it as a war tactic and acknowledge that punishing those who tried to ride out the war in peace mode to escape damage deserved some reasonable punishment.

That is to be commended but don't go back on it now. Actually make the punishment reasonable.