Proportionality: reps and the new NPO myth that we are "as bad as them."

[Seerow]

Oh really? What myth? It's blatantly obvious.

Karma leaders and alliance members loved to say that NPO was evil and bad and shouldn't have done all of those things but they can do it in return? They should've just said we got the upper hand now and are gonna do everything you did to us to you. That would be fine. I wouldn't even argue the point. However, they made what NPO did out to be sooooo bad that those practices should never be allowed to happen on CN ever again yet here they are making a mockery of themselves.

What better way to make sure they don't happen again than to make sure the originator of the practices tastes the full bitterness of what they wrought?

On an aside, for those who think that the additional reps for peacemode nations is harsh, a brief look through the first two pages (the top 10% of the alliance) shows that there is over 4 million nation strength in peace mode alone. (I counted roughly 4,098,000 but I just added the thousands together so there could be a leeway of tens of thousands higher than that). Of that top 10% of the alliance, 87% is in peace mode. Their 4million nation strength in peace mode represents more than half of their remaining total nation strength. Their peace mode nations alone would take place 21-22 on the alliance rankings. Just think about those numbers for a minute and realize why Karma needs to force a good portion of those nations out before letting NPO get peace. This isn't an issue of fairness or getting back, it's an issue of how can you effectively win a war while leaving the enemy's whole upper rank fully in tact?

[Teriethien]

Oh really? What myth? It's blatantly obvious.

Karma leaders and alliance members loved to say that NPO was evil and bad and shouldn't have done all of those things but they can do it in return? They should've just said we got the upper hand now and are gonna do everything you did to us to you. That would be fine. I wouldn't even argue the point. However, they made what NPO did out to be sooooo bad that those practices should never be allowed to happen on CN ever again yet here they are making a mockery of themselves.

I thought some alliances in Karma were out to get NPO's blood for, you know, revenge.

[Comrade Smith]

It's not hypocrisy, it's just good strategy.

[magicninja]

I thought some alliances in Karma were out to get NPO's blood for, you know, revenge.

Which one of the alliances attacking NPO ever had peace mode restrictions put on them by NPO?

Karma has already won this war. They are out to make sure NPO can't rebuild. It's a sham. Just flat out say it. We don't want you to rebuild so we're gonna do what you did. This has nothing to do with anything that NPO did to anyone else.

[Teriethien]

Which one of the alliances attacking NPO ever had peace mode restrictions put on them by NPO?

Karma has already won this war. They are out to make sure NPO can't rebuild. It's a sham. Just flat out say it. We don't want you to rebuild so we're gonna do what you did. This has nothing to do with anything that NPO did to anyone else.

Who said revenge had to be in kind though? Seems to me like some alliances want NPO to suffer and PM Banks are an prime target. Not that I know what Karma is really thinking and/or their motivation BTW, just randomly commenting.

[magicninja]

Who said revenge had to be in kind though? Seems to me like some alliances want NPO to suffer and PM Banks are an prime target. Not that I know what Karma is really thinking and/or their motivation BTW, just randomly commenting.

He did by saying words like proportionality. I honestly wouldn't care if that was their motive. The Karma Coalition should focus on the wrongs that have been done to them and leave other people's plight out of it then. Athens got high reps taken out of them by NPO they deserve that and maybe more back. So does MK and OV. Tell me where Sparta should get anything from NPO? NPO never harmed Sparta in any way. Why are any of them throwing around GATO's name in all of this? GATO didn't ask Karma to stick it to the PM nations for them. Karma took it upon themselves. Though I'm sure there are some in GATO that don't mind Karma is just using GATO to further their own agenda. Where were they when GATO was under the gun? How many do you think even give a !@#$ about GATO now?

Edited May 26, 2009 by magicninja

[Tromp]

What better way to make sure they don't happen again than to make sure the originator of the practices tastes the full bitterness of what they wrought?

On an aside, for those who think that the additional reps for peacemode nations is harsh, a brief look through the first two pages (the top 10% of the alliance) shows that there is over 4 million nation strength in peace mode alone. (I counted roughly 4,098,000 but I just added the thousands together so there could be a leeway of tens of thousands higher than that). Of that top 10% of the alliance, 87% is in peace mode. Their 4million nation strength in peace mode represents more than half of their remaining total nation strength. Their peace mode nations alone would take place 21-22 on the alliance rankings. Just think about those numbers for a minute and realize why Karma needs to force a good portion of those nations out before letting NPO get peace. This isn't an issue of fairness or getting back, it's an issue of how can you effectively win a war while leaving the enemy's whole upper rank fully in tact?

It is 5,5M NS in peace mode. (last time I counted anyway.) Edited May 26, 2009 by Tromp

[Bob Janova]

I should have learnt about trying to beat sense into Magicninja's skull by now ... but I haven't, so let's try again.

Karma, in general, believes that threatening peace mode nations with PZI is a bad thing.

If Karma were threatening peace mode nations with PZI, then they would be hypocrites.

Not giving an alliance peace before it is no longer a threat is a bad idea, and NPO's PM reserve is so large that that cannot be accomplished without those nations coming out of PM and losing strength.

This is a long, long way from threatening the nations with PZI; after all they can surrender at any time. So no, it does not make Karma hypocrites.

[shahenshah]

Oh really? What myth? It's blatantly obvious.

Karma leaders and alliance members loved to say that NPO was evil and bad and shouldn't have done all of those things but they can do it in return? They should've just said we got the upper hand now and are gonna do everything you did to us to you. That would be fine. I wouldn't even argue the point. However, they made what NPO did out to be sooooo bad that those practices should never be allowed to happen on CN ever again yet here they are making a mockery of themselves.

This. Although I would not say all alliances of Karma are doing this but most are.

[Comrade Smith]

We don't want you to rebuild so we're gonna do what you did. This has nothing to do with anything that NPO did to anyone else.

I think it has everything to do with what the NPO has done in the past. So many people wouldn't be baying for blood had the NPO ever acted with even a semblance of fairness.

[Angrator]

It's good that someone in the very center of things had the wherewithal to post this. Many people are simply not in a position in which they can post that. It was an excellent post and should definitely give the peaceniks no reps pause.

[Azaghul]

I don't recall many in Karma condemning punishing people for being in peace mode in absolute terms. So no, there isn't any hypocrisy.

[neneko]

Right, and NPO actually PZI'd GATO nations...right?

Oh, it was just a threat.

Right, and Karma actually gave extra reps to NPO for having nations in pm..right?

Oh, it was just a threat.

Edited May 26, 2009 by neneko

[Alterego]

Right, and Karma actually gave extra reps to NPO for having nations in pm..right?

Oh, it was just a threat.

So there will be no reps or punishment of any kind for keeping their nations in peace mode?

Edited May 26, 2009 by Alterego

[neneko]

So there will be no reps or punishment of any kind for keeping their nations in peace mode?

This might suprise you but they never asked me of my input on that, in fact I never even got invited to those discussions. Yes I know, I'm just as upset as you are over this.

edit: Since you have a habbit of misinterpretating my posts I'll add a easier version here.

The fact that nizzle seem to think it's okay to threaten with doing things to PM nations (at least when npo does it) but draw the line at actually doing the things you threatened to do would mean that he's complaining about this whole thing a little early since no punishment have been dealt yet.

Edited May 26, 2009 by neneko

[AirMe]

This post is so good that the NPO is fighting it with another blog.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?a...p;showentry=724

[Nizzle]

Some people in Karma complained about P/EZI for nations in PM

Some people in Karma specifically complained about threatening nations in PM because it was a "tactic".

In which case, exactly why were you !@#$%*in about it in the first place?

Epic fail. You missed the point by a wide margin. Staying in peace mode hurts them. If they come out of peace mode, it won't be like they will be overwhelmingly stronger than us.

I don't know about where you live in RL, but in an awful lot of places,

threatening someone's life is punished nearly severely as actually

taking it.

No, ATTEMPTING to take someone's life is punished as severely as actually taking it. Thanks.

Apparently your head trauma has left you unable to remember things in a linear manner.

NPO tried curbstomping a much smaller alliance. The allies of that alliance honored their

treaties, and then the blocs kicked in. Now just because yer buddies over at Pacifica actually

got called out for once, doesn't mean that they weren't the aggressors.

Now that you have blatantly displayed the fact you have NO idea what you are talking about...

Okay mods, hit me up again, but the meter has been reached.....

B U L L S H I T

somehow I find this both intriguing and full of LOL

What are you talking about?

Right, and Karma actually gave extra reps to NPO for having nations in pm..right?

Oh, it was just a threat.

Here is the problem: NPO never carried out the threat...Karma still can. Until such a point arrives where Karma does not carry out this thread, then the two actions cannot be compared.

Also, and I have little issue digging through millions of posts to find it, everyone here should know very well the backlash was against NPO threatening and mocking PM nations at all. The focus on PZI probably came to be when you all realized it was beneficial to penalize nations in PM. Which, of course, I have no idea why you would. NPO is slowly forcing you into a FAN position, where you must demand their PM nations suffer through one round of wars before being "let off". Assigning some penalties to nations in PM won't really do much, in my opinion. Damaging their PM nations probably won't do much either, as the damage has already been done. They are defeated, and they know it I'm sure, but they are playing for time. We have all seen this before.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Nizzle

[Angrator]

This. Although I would not say all alliances of Karma are doing this but most are.

Huh? Are you asking for more reps? IRON got off with moderate reps, so what do you have to complain about? We all know what the situation would be like if the situation were reversed. You would see half the Karma alliances disbanding under crippling reparations and memberships plummeting under viceroys. You should stop complaining and just say thank you. We could have driven you in the dirt like the NPO pile drove so many others. But we didn't. So where are all our thank yous?

I like the fact that the NPO isn't even attempting to gain the moral high ground. They know they lost pure and simple. They realize every single person, or close to it, knows about their naked aggression and hates them for it. The best they can do is throw up some feeble defense trying to say that we are the same. I have news for you NPO. We aren't the same, and we will never be the same. I'll never forget the foot of the NPO on the back of my neck, so give it a rest already. We've heard your lame duck arguments time and time again. Either come back to the forums or give up. Stop sending in your proxies to get beat up on the forums.

[Nizzle]

This post is so good that the NPO is fighting it with another blog.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?a...p;showentry=724

New Pacific Order: Making the best propaganda since poo flavored ice cream.

[Seerow]

New Pacific Order: Making the best propaganda since poo flavored ice cream.

Hey now, that poo flavored ice cream had a great PR campaign going along with it. You'd be suprised how much it sold before people realized it actually WAS poo flavored.

[neneko]

Here is the problem: NPO never carried out the threat...Karma still can. Until such a point arrives where Karma does not carry out this thread, then the two actions cannot be compared.

When such a point arrives where karma does not carry out the threat? I'm gonna go with 5 pm yesterday. They didn't carry it out then.

Seriously though I think your logic is all backwards. What your stance that it's okay to threaten really implies is that you can't attack kama for it until they actually carry out the punishment wich is why I said that you're a bit early here.

[Nizzle]

When such a point arrives where karma does not carry out the threat? I'm gonna go with 5 pm yesterday. They didn't carry it out then.

Seriously though I think your logic is all backwards. What your stance that it's okay to threaten really implies is that you can't attack kama for it until they actually carry out the punishment wich is why I said that you're a bit early here.

Isn't it 5 PM today that the five days is up? Even then, it would be displayed in the final peace terms...not before then. I highly doubt NPO would accept it, to be honest.

I am dismayed Karma even issued the threat, first of all. I stated that you cannot claim Karma only made the "threat" and won't follow through until NPO surrenders and Karma did not follow through. How can this be proven? It may be hard, but I'm sure it will leak.

Regardless of what NPO has/has not done in the past, I am voicing my disagreement that Karma felt the need to threaten PM nations at all.

[neneko]

Isn't it 5 PM today that the five days is up? Even then, it would be displayed in the final peace terms...not before then. I highly doubt NPO would accept it, to be honest.

First of all I think you misunderstood me. I meant that we can pick any time like right now for instance where the threats have not been carried out.

I am dismayed Karma even issued the threat, first of all. I stated that you cannot claim Karma only made the "threat" and won't follow through until NPO surrenders and Karma did not follow through. How can this be proven? It may be hard, but I'm sure it will leak.

Nobody can prove right now that karma won't follow through on their threats but if you're going to take the stance that it's okay to threaten then nothing besides threats have been issued yet so you don't really have much to complain about.

Regardless of what NPO has/has not done in the past, I am voicing my disagreement that Karma felt the need to threaten PM nations at all.

This part I just plain don't understand in the light of your earlier posts. You said in your earlier post that what npo did was okay because they only threatened but when karma threaten to do something alot more lenient as punishment it's not okay?

[magicninja]

I should have learnt about trying to beat sense into Magicninja's skull by now ... but I haven't, so let's try again.

Karma, in general, believes that threatening peace mode nations with PZI is a bad thing.

If Karma were threatening peace mode nations with PZI, then they would be hypocrites.

Not giving an alliance peace before it is no longer a threat is a bad idea, and NPO's PM reserve is so large that that cannot be accomplished without those nations coming out of PM and losing strength.

This is a long, long way from threatening the nations with PZI; after all they can surrender at any time. So no, it does not make Karma hypocrites.

C'mon Mr. Janova. Just because it isn't as wrong as PZI doesn't make it right. Are you guys really so wrapped up in your own !@#$%^&* that you can't see that? You're starting to take a lesser of two evils route. You think NPO set the high bar for evil in CN so you think if you scrape in just under it no one can argue with you. It's !@#$%^&* and you know it.

[Vilien]

C'mon Mr. Janova. Just because it isn't as wrong as PZI doesn't make it right. Are you guys really so wrapped up in your own !@#$%^&* that you can't see that? You're starting to take a lesser of two evils route. You think NPO set the high bar for evil in CN so you think if you scrape in just under it no one can argue with you. It's !@#$%^&* and you know it.

When you can show me a post of you complaining about the ridiculous !@#$%^&* that NPO pulled in its day then maybe I'll give your argument some consideration. You've either completely forgotten what the "Pax Pacifica" was like, or you're simply an opportunist trying to garner sympathy for an alliance that deserves none.