Why what went around is not coming around

[Matthew Conrad]

Never mind, don't want to feed this thread anymore

Edited May 9, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Angrator]

I don't really have anything to add to the above discussion. I think the charges were trumped up, like they normally are. However, let's not forget about some of the good that the NPO has done for the CN. At least we don't have the blue whale week anymore (you know what I'm talking about). They made lots of enemies, but any alliance on top will make enemies. For that reason, I don't think the NPO deserves harsh terms.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Angrator

[joecanada]

NPO may have been cutthroat at times but it is a war based game so to be cutthroat at some times is normal... to call them evil and be serious about it is ridiculous...

however in the way the game is played, KARMA is not very different at all... many alliances entered this conflict with opposing pacts/treaties and had to choose. I have no loyalty to NPO but i fight to honor such a treaty....

And I saw HUNDREDS of posts from karma alliances trying to shame any 1V alliance into fighting for NPO in an obvious attempt to displace numerous upper tier alliances... If you look at IRON for example and our MDP web, we could have had several reasons for not fighting at all or even fighting on another side.

This was an obvious "excuse" for a power shift or grab for higher rankings... anyone can say otherwise but until i see the proof (which is in the peace talks) no one is going to prove otherwise......... I've seen numerous posts saying "we can't let NPO keep power"...... so they can become a new FAN? so then KARMA again is the same as NPO......

NPO is made up of hundreds of people. People who chose the alliance... Hundreds more can choose to join them again after the war or at any time so no you cannot keep them down, alliances destroy themselves by bad policy.

To reiterate though about the game itself, it is a war-based game... so whatever war tactics or alliance politics lead to various fights, its all ok with me, part of a bigger fun factor....

[Drostan]

NPO may have been cutthroat at times but it is a war based game so to be cutthroat at some times is normal... to call them evil and be serious about it is ridiculous...

And I saw HUNDREDS of posts from karma alliances trying to shame any 1V alliance into fighting for NPO in an obvious attempt to displace numerous upper tier alliances... If you look at IRON for example and our MDP web, we could have had several reasons for not fighting at all or even fighting on another side.

This was an obvious "excuse" for a power shift or grab for higher rankings... anyone can say otherwise but until i see the proof (which is in the peace talks) no one is going to prove otherwise......... I've seen numerous posts saying "we can't let NPO keep power"...... so they can become a new FAN? so then KARMA again is the same as NPO......

To reiterate though about the game itself, it is a war-based game... so whatever war tactics or alliance politics lead to various fights, its all ok with me, part of a bigger fun factor....

It seems to me that you start with the sentiment "by any means necessary" because "that's the game." And then you move to the sentiment "KARMA alliances are just using this as a power grab" and imply that this is a dishonest or bad thing to do. Then you end again with the sentiment that "it's all in the game."

I guess what I am saying is that you analysis of KARMA in this war is defeated by your very own opening remarks.

But since this KARMA is the same as NPO mentality is gaining some credence I will attempt to address it directly. KARMA cannot ever be like the NPO. Why? Because NPO is an alliance whereas KARMA is not. KARMA is a band of loosely affiliated alliances that are more or less only united by their wish to overthrow the NPO. I do not expect much residual coherency following the conclusion of this war on the KARMA side. That alone makes KARMA different because the nature of how the entity (KARMA) relates to its members. Unlike the NPO that has its own forums and its own propaganda etc, KARMA exists solely as a temporary force generated from the perceived notion of common goals. It is a relationship of convenience to be sure.

For a long time now the NPO has come to symbolize the stagnation and domesticated stand-ins for war (curb-stomps) that have become familiar in recent times. Thus it is not even necessarily the picture of how they want the world to be that unites those fighting for KARMA but rather the picture of how they are sick of the world being as it is. Many in KARMA probably wish to avoid the overly brash and unapologetic attitudes of NPO that have so often led them into war against a far inferior force for suspect reasons. For them they fight simply to end the reign of cruel and illogical dominance they feel characterized the world under NPO. Others in KARMA are simply sick of the concentration and consolidation of power in mega BLOCs like Q and the daily paybills style of play that has by and large typified existence in this world. As you say yourself the game is about war and diplomacy and thus NPO's strangehold on both of those things led to the game being far less interesting.

Either way the interests of the KARMA alliances are sure to diverge after this war is over. And that will make for a far more interesting dynamic as there will no longer be one or two clearly dominant alliances and the ties between these dominant alliances have certainly been strained and even severed in many cases.

[Leet Guy]

I don't really have anything to add to the above discussion. I think the charges were trumped up, like they normally are. However, let's not forget about some of the good that the NPO has done for the CN. At least we don't have the blue whale week anymore (you know what I'm talking about). They made lots of enemies, but any alliance on top will make enemies. For that reason, I don't think the NPO deserves harsh terms.

But...but...Shark Week was so much fun!

[Haflinger]

From what I've seen NPO did not inform anyone but TORN they were attacking that night, everyone who was in the negotiations was not aware of the planned assault, well until it was on the war screen.

I don't know who was in the negotiations, but it's not true that nobody but NPO and TORN knew about the attacks in advance.

[Elderago]

I think the real @#%% slap for the NPO is that after this war all those nations who got ravaged during this war are going to want reps from those who are in peace mode, and since a lot are high ranking officer if aid is not sent out quickly and efficently ,475 nations in anarchy mind you and 233 in peace mode (minus those who were at war and then went into peace mode), there could bee a large scale rebellion...

[HeinousOne]

NPO may have been cutthroat at times but it is a war based game so to be cutthroat at some times is normal... to call them evil and be serious about it is ridiculous...

however in the way the game is played, KARMA is not very different at all... many alliances entered this conflict with opposing pacts/treaties and had to choose. I have no loyalty to NPO but i fight to honor such a treaty....

And I saw HUNDREDS of posts from karma alliances trying to shame any 1V alliance into fighting for NPO in an obvious attempt to displace numerous upper tier alliances... If you look at IRON for example and our MDP web, we could have had several reasons for not fighting at all or even fighting on another side.

This was an obvious "excuse" for a power shift or grab for higher rankings... anyone can say otherwise but until i see the proof (which is in the peace talks) no one is going to prove otherwise......... I've seen numerous posts saying "we can't let NPO keep power"...... so they can become a new FAN? so then KARMA again is the same as NPO......

NPO is made up of hundreds of people. People who chose the alliance... Hundreds more can choose to join them again after the war or at any time so no you cannot keep them down, alliances destroy themselves by bad policy.

To reiterate though about the game itself, it is a war-based game... so whatever war tactics or alliance politics lead to various fights, its all ok with me, part of a bigger fun factor....

Look, Karma is a mob. There is a large difference of opinion within that mob. Yes, there is a group of leaders whom are trying to steer the boat in a general direction but even they do not all agree on an exact course. To say that members posting being an obvious attempt to displace numberous upper tier alliances from being at the side of NPO, is to disregard the fact that this war gave some folks a chance to actually speak their mind. They were speaking their own mind and what they wanted to do was lash out. That is it, you are either misinterpreting that or you are trying to paint it as something other then what it really is for your own purposes.

As far as not letting NPO keep power, that doesnt mean an eternal war such as with FAN. NPO is Still the top alliance NS wise and they havnt yet seemed to lose alot of nations as they still have over 900 nations thus their ability to rebuild quickly will still be available to them. Karma alliances and members realize this is not a permanent set up against NPO, it could possibly be reformed again if necessary but who knows what will happen after this war is over. Thus those saying that NPO cannot be allowed to keep power are simply saying that NPO cannot be allowed to quickly rebuild and come back twice as vicious like they did after a previous Great War.

Finally, when you speak of alliances destroying themselves with bad policy are you talking about NPO because it is their policies that have brought this entire war upon us all.

[joecanada]

It seems to me that you start with the sentiment "by any means necessary" because "that's the game." And then you move to the sentiment "KARMA alliances are just using this as a power grab" and imply that this is a dishonest or bad thing to do. Then you end again with the sentiment that "it's all in the game."

I guess what I am saying is that you analysis of KARMA in this war is defeated by your very own opening remarks.

But since this KARMA is the same as NPO mentality is gaining some credence I will attempt to address it directly. KARMA cannot ever be like the NPO. Why? Because NPO is an alliance whereas KARMA is not. KARMA is a band of loosely affiliated alliances that are more or less only united by their wish to overthrow the NPO. I do not expect much residual coherency following the conclusion of this war on the KARMA side. That alone makes KARMA different because the nature of how the entity (KARMA) relates to its members. Unlike the NPO that has its own forums and its own propaganda etc, KARMA exists solely as a temporary force generated from the perceived notion of common goals. It is a relationship of convenience to be sure.

For a long time now the NPO has come to symbolize the stagnation and domesticated stand-ins for war (curb-stomps) that have become familiar in recent times. Thus it is not even necessarily the picture of how they want the world to be that unites those fighting for KARMA but rather the picture of how they are sick of the world being as it is. Many in KARMA probably wish to avoid the overly brash and unapologetic attitudes of NPO that have so often led them into war against a far inferior force for suspect reasons. For them they fight simply to end the reign of cruel and illogical dominance they feel characterized the world under NPO. Others in KARMA are simply sick of the concentration and consolidation of power in mega BLOCs like Q and the daily paybills style of play that has by and large typified existence in this world. As you say yourself the game is about war and diplomacy and thus NPO's strangehold on both of those things led to the game being far less interesting.

Either way the interests of the KARMA alliances are sure to diverge after this war is over. And that will make for a far more interesting dynamic as there will no longer be one or two clearly dominant alliances and the ties between these dominant alliances have certainly been strained and even severed in many cases.

ya, i pretty much agree with what you said here... My post kind of had two themes... what will happen to NPO or what is happening to them...... and what will/is happening to the other alliances with them.....

so ya i see how KARMA is different than NPO as a reactive group tired of being stomped on and all that... but to stomp on NPO back is still a cutthroat way of dealing with a cutthroat organization..... for instance KARMA could have used propoganda to coax people out of the alliance or the threat of war to coerce people into quitting. But the thing about the game is that you can't make people quit an alliance.... so you can't kill that alliance.

Mostly my post about the KARMA hyporcritical attitude was directed at those who goaded the 1V alliances into staying just to be stomped... but I know that again may not be a representation of all KARMA attitudes because as you say it is a collective group without a singular purpose...

but again i will say i am not bitter and i do believe that war is always a huge part of CN... that's all. I didn't want to make it sound like I was bitter thats why i added that part in.

[HeinousOne]

ya, i pretty much agree with what you said here... My post kind of had two themes... what will happen to NPO or what is happening to them...... and what will/is happening to the other alliances with them.....

so ya i see how KARMA is different than NPO as a reactive group tired of being stomped on and all that... but to stomp on NPO back is still a cutthroat way of dealing with a cutthroat organization..... for instance KARMA could have used propoganda to coax people out of the alliance or the threat of war to coerce people into quitting. But the thing about the game is that you can't make people quit an alliance.... so you can't kill that alliance.

Mostly my post about the KARMA hyporcritical attitude was directed at those who goaded the 1V alliances into staying just to be stomped... but I know that again may not be a representation of all KARMA attitudes because as you say it is a collective group without a singular purpose...

but again i will say i am not bitter and i do believe that war is always a huge part of CN... that's all. I didn't want to make it sound like I was bitter thats why i added that part in.

You really think that such propaganda as you speak of in the boldened section has not been used? Vox used such all the time. I know first hand of this from trying to confront them on these boards when I was flying the black and blue. There were plenty of others who were obviously sympathetic to their words and I even attempted to call some of them out, hence why I ended up having to leave NPO, for speaking up so vehemently against those they hold treaties with. The point is, there was plenty of propaganda as well as an obvious growing tide of public resentment towards the NPO. I asked on multiple occasions myself about why such was happening, to NPO leadership, and was given such responses as "dont be a headache" and "trust your leaders". Not sure how leaders that are turning the world against them are supposed to be trusted but I suppose that is why in the end I did not make a good pacifican.

To be honest though I dont blame many of the nations of the Hegemony for being bitter. How many truly saw the coming storm? How many were cuddled safely away within the warmth of the Continuum bosom? The wakeup call has arrived and your leaders may be able to tell you wonderful things but when war comes calling there isnt a way to sugarcoat the truth. When all else failed to open the eyes of the nations that empowered certain leaders then war is the last option. Should those nations then not rise up and demand change within the governments they choose to give their allegiance to then the responsibility does fully land upon those nations' shoulders. To summarize, your bitterness is warranted but it really shouldn't be directed at Karma.

[West of Eden]

further points of interest are the absurd notion that npo ever gave a damn about being the number one alliance in terms of score

This has probably long since blown over but.. There were a number of discussion at the time (shortly before the GPA war) that there was recruitment trouble because we were not number one and that's why we were stagnating in terms of membership. But don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

[Master Hakai]

Too much philosophy for my mind I am so sleepy. *yawn*

[Midkn1ght]

NPO is Still the top alliance NS wise and they havnt yet seemed to lose alot of nations as they still have over 900 nations thus their ability to rebuild quickly will still be available to them

Don't let them fool you. On 4-18 they had 930 members. As of this posting, they have 922. Big deal right? They lost 8 people, or so their propaganda would have you believe. Everyone's a loyal Pacifican, there are no surrenders! They've lost some pretty big WRC nations, and they've got 160 members who've joined them since the start of this war, and they're still down 8 people net.

[shahenshah]

It seems to me that you start with the sentiment "by any means necessary" because "that's the game." And then you move to the sentiment "KARMA alliances are just using this as a power grab" and imply that this is a dishonest or bad thing to do. Then you end again with the sentiment that "it's all in the game."

I guess what I am saying is that you analysis of KARMA in this war is defeated by your very own opening remarks.

But since this KARMA is the same as NPO mentality is gaining some credence I will attempt to address it directly. KARMA cannot ever be like the NPO. Why? Because NPO is an alliance whereas KARMA is not. KARMA is a band of loosely affiliated alliances that are more or less only united by their wish to overthrow the NPO. I do not expect much residual coherency following the conclusion of this war on the KARMA side. That alone makes KARMA different because the nature of how the entity (KARMA) relates to its members. Unlike the NPO that has its own forums and its own propaganda etc, KARMA exists solely as a temporary force generated from the perceived notion of common goals. It is a relationship of convenience to be sure.

He was kinda referring to ideology. EZIs and Viceroyalties were in all pragmatism gone before Karma war came in and Hegemony had lost the political capacity internally and externally to enforce such. There have been white peace/lenient terms before even by alliances that are core of 'Hegemony'.

What else is new? NPO and co get harsh terms and the change will amount to zero or +/- a couple or so white peace terms.

NSO has brought more solid change than Karma with 1 week wars alone.

Edited May 10, 2009 by shahenshah

[KinKiac]

my apologies for that, i get a bit excited during full blown propaganda wars

carry on

lol, I love this post. You basically admit to lying. Good one.

[Thierra]

-snip-

I will say this - Karma is fighting the mentality they wish to destroy.

If you want the perpetual cycle of violence, shadiness, and vengeance to continue, then beating NPO and co to a pulp and humiliating them is definitely the way to go. For an alliance, however, that purports to be on the side of right, they take considerable pleasure in imitating the powers they have pledged themselves toward destroying.

Also, it's just funny that when Karma alliances were bandwaggoned, they protested loudly. When they are on the offensive, however, it doesn't seem to bother them...

[der_ko]

In order to build a new world you need to destroy the old world.

[Mixoux]

In order to build a new world you need to destroy the old world.

But, but, the honor and integrity and morals!