Justice For Traitors

[Monster]

So you'd rather have a time of peace? Personally this war has been the funnest thing that CN has seen in a long while, for both sides. Why stifle the chance for another great war? Most of karma complained about the stagnation that the hegemony brought to cn affairs, and now you want to create the same thing and name it something different?

More wars, the better.

I'm with Crohl here. Something I really hated about CN up until now was the tea party atmosphere that prevailed. Stagnation is a terrible thing.

I haven't finished the thread yet, but so far this is what best mirrors my beliefs. Funny how there are so many that don't even want to be labled Karma due to actions and words being uttered by some involved on the side of Karma.

Actually, a good portion of those who are saying they are not Karma are those that disagree with our stances on light peace terms and wish to take reps in any number of situations.

[Detlev]

the irony is that it is people with your extreme mentality that validated npos fears and caused them to act the way they did

when ov conspired with blackstone, it is this mentality which affirms their fears that they were defending their very right to exist

Had NPO conducted itself honorably and treated others with respect it would not have had anything to fear.

Respect can be earned or it can be forced. NPO chose the low road and created the animosity and wrath that it is now tasting.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Detlev

[valkyrie9002]

I say we have no terms, and wait for NPO to grow tired of fighting. Light terms, and when they start stuff later on down the line, we have even more reason to crush them.

[Kevin Cash]

Had NPO conducted itself honorably and treated others with respect it would not have had anything to fear.

Respect can be earned or it can be forced. NPO chose the low road and created the animosity towards it.

its called a self fulfilling prophecy. so many of you claim that npo has to be wiped off the map, that npo has no choice but to take an aggressive stance simply to protect their very existence.

one could argue it is the other way around, that npo ultimately made unfounded fears come true... but i think that is unlikely, as people have been trying to take them down since the beginning of cn, simply because they were always at the top.

it is therefore impossible to fault npo as they were simply defending their right to exist, it is people like you who drove them to the lengths they went, who instilled their fears that they had to commit such acts to defend their right to exist... as it would turn out, their fears were accurate and they are more than justified in their course.

or you could keep spewing the mindless propaganda that npo are bad guys who do bad things for the sake of being bad with no further motivation... your choice i suppose

[Doug Falkner]

Actually, a good portion of those who are saying they are not Karma are those that disagree with our stances on light peace terms and wish to take reps in any number of situations.

A good portion of the people who fought on the side of Karma are folks who argued for harsh terms when they were part of the hegemony. It doesn't surprise me that they continue to press for hard terms now they're fighting against the Hegemony.

[Nintenderek]

Margrave, I partially agree with you, and I partially don't. What will happen, is yes, NPO and friends will regrow. There will be another war. However, who's to say the good guy's won't win that one too? War is what makes this game fun. So let them regrow back to where they were, we'll just bring them right back down to size.

[Deadshot]

As a foot soldier of Karma (what a lame name that is), I oppose mercy for the enemy. I want to see these alliances broken and butchered. Especially NPO. Eternal-ZI for all of the IOs and trolls and disband the alliance.

How exactly is that going to change anything on this planet? Isn't that the whole point of this war, to change the way things are done? Either way the future is exciting. However, as was said earlier, and eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

I suspect there would be a split in "Karma" if extreme terms were given to any alliance. To give terms of disbandment or anything of the ilk, would cause the ones within "Karma" that take up the cause truly, to turn against the ones in "Karma" who became the Hydra.

This is cyclical in nature. Powers rise, powers fall, and so on until the end of existence. What you do while you are in power, along with after you have fallen will write your page in history. As earlier stated, there are many alliances that were crippled by "Hegemony" in times past. Are they not among the powerful again?

[Detlev]

it is people like you who drove them to the lengths they went

LOL I should put that in my sig.

Even with evil mean people like me playing this game, scheming non stop to take down the innocent NPO, had NPO conducted itself with honor and treated others with respect it would have a lot more support in this war than it does. It would almost certainly have the upper hand in which case the war would not have happened.

How exactly is that going to change anything on this planet? Isn't that the whole point of this war, to change the way things are done? Either way the future is exciting. However, as was said earlier, and eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

I suspect there would be a split in "Karma" if extreme terms were given to any alliance. To give terms of disbandment or anything of the ilk, would cause the ones within "Karma" that take up the cause truly, to turn against the ones in "Karma" who became the Hydra.

This is cyclical in nature. Powers rise, powers fall, and so on until the end of existence. What you do while you are in power, along with after you have fallen will write your page in history. As earlier stated, there are many alliances that were crippled by "Hegemony" in times past. Are they not among the powerful again?

What now? Do us all a favor and don't make meaningless cliches.

What happens if NPO is not truly broken in this war? Will NPO et al have learned its lesson and stop scheming? Or will NPO et al continue the way it did before? If Karma gives harsh terms to this thugocracy does it mean that Karma is going to bully everyone else too? There are some flaws in your reasoning. Many of NPO's previous wars were for dubious reasons. This current war against NPO et al is entirely legitimate, so to argue that harsh terms given to NPO et al is the same as when NPO gave harsh terms to FAN, GATO, etc is nonsense. Harsh terms don't really matter; the reason that they are given is what matters.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Detlev

[Doug Falkner]

However, who's to say the good guy's won't win that one too? War is what makes this game fun. So let them regrow back to where they were, we'll just bring them right back down to size.

Not to belabor a point but this is exactly the sort of thinking that I was talking about earlier when I said it's inevitable that there will be tyranny. As long as there are folks who think they're the good guys and it's their role to fight the bad guys and keep them suppressed, there will be alliances and blocs that oppress others.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

its called a self fulfilling prophecy. so many of you claim that npo has to be wiped off the map, that npo has no choice but to take an aggressive stance simply to protect their very existence.

one could argue it is the other way around, that npo ultimately made unfounded fears come true... but i think that is unlikely, as people have been trying to take them down since the beginning of cn, simply because they were always at the top.

While this is true, those people have never been able to accomplish anything significant on their own. They needed help, and the people that would be able to help them (I'm counting myself in that) didnt have any interest in it - in fact, up until a little over a year ago I, for example, would have been ready and willing to take the NPOs side if they had faced a serious threat. I certainly had no interest in going against them - I am not of chaos, but of order. They were not perfect, but they brought and sustained order, and their blemishes and imperfections were (at least from my position) rather minor and forgiveable in the bigger picture.

Yeah. Then one day they destroyed my alliance. Why? Because they were bored. Because they could.

Can anyone blame me if I dont like them so much now? If I am no longer willing to defend them? Their actions have had consequences. Every individual has a slightly different story, but there are a LOT of people that would be devoted supporters of the NPO right now, if Pacifica herself had not been so arrogant in her later actions.

Yes, some people hate them just because they're number 1, there have always been haters and and there always will be, think of them as *necessary* enemies. But the NPO are where they are now not because of them alone, but rather because the NPO themselves finally drove enough people that would otherwise have been supporters or at worst neutral to the other side, because they just kept making *unecessary* enemies to add on top of the necessary ones, and eventually swing the balance away from them.

Hence why "karma" is such an appropriate reference for their spot today.

[Senes]

I say we have no terms, and wait for NPO to grow tired of fighting. Light terms, and when they start stuff later on down the line, we have even more reason to crush them.

If what the peanut gallery says is 100% true, then this would result in the next war being harder, heavier, and sooner. It might also result in NPO crushing and viceroying every last one of them, because they're pretty cool like that.

Therefore, this stance has my utmost support. :jihad:

[Ceremony]

Whatever my personal opinions, I must say that Margrave of "New Sith Order" is really in character. Good job. Hatred leads to revenge leads to power! Or however it's supposed to go.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Whatever my personal opinions, I must say that Margrave of "New Sith Order" is really in character. Good job. Hatred leads to revenge leads to power! Or however it's supposed to go.

Except that this is the OOC forum...

[Deadshot]

LOL I should put that in my sig.

Even with evil mean people like me playing this game, scheming non stop to take down the innocent NPO, had NPO conducted itself with honor and treated others with respect it would have a lot more support in this war than it does. It would almost certainly have the upper hand in which case the war would not have happened.

What now? Do us all a favor and don't make meaningless cliches.

What happens if NPO is not truly broken in this war? Will NPO et al have learned its lesson and stop scheming? Or will NPO et al continue the way it did before? If Karma gives harsh terms to this thugocracy does it mean that Karma is going to bully everyone else too? There are some flaws in your reasoning. Many of NPO's previous wars were for dubious reasons. This current war against NPO et al is entirely legitimate, so to argue that harsh terms given to NPO et al is the same as when NPO gave harsh terms to FAN, GATO, etc is nonsense. Harsh terms don't really matter; the reason that they are given is what matters.

I do believe it was someone on the Karma side that originally said that. Do do us all a favor and at least know what you are talking about before you start insulting everyone. All I have seen here is a few people such as yourself belittling the opinions of everyone else like a child as opposed to having a good healthy debate. I couldn't care less what your opinion of me is, but reverting to remarks like you are making is ridiculous.

That being said, I never said that some of the past actions of certain alliances weren't questionable. All I was saying is that to stomp someone down and kick them in the head to prove they were wrong gets you no where. We, the hegemonis side did that, and look where we are now. On the opposite side of the bayonet. Surely you can see if you repeated those actions, the tables would turn.

Maybe you need to figure out what "Karma" side stands for. It has to be one or the other. Pointing out errors and showing the world no one is invincible, with the promise of a better future, or doing the same thing others have done in the past only to have them filled with hatred.

Being a member of the Hegemonis side, I can tell you, I hold no ill will toward any alliance on the opposition. Maybe this is because we were beat at our own game, and called out, then learned from it. Maybe it is because I couldn't care which alliances are in control of what. Its a game.

[Doug Falkner]

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything that Wentworth has just said. If there is a lesson to be learned from the fall of the Hegemony, it is that force is not the best means of maintaining order on Planet Bob. I'm interested to see if this lesson gets learned by the folks who will now be taking the reigns.

[Ceremony]

Except that this is the OOC forum...

Exactly

/he's in so deep...

[Kevin Cash]

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything that Wentworth has just said. If there is a lesson to be learned from the fall of the Hegemony, it is that force is not the best means of maintaining order on Planet Bob. I'm interested to see if this lesson gets learned by the folks who will now be taking the reigns.

but if you like lots of war, well, this is bad news, isnt it

[HellAngel]

sparta, mha, fark, gremlins, top, the rest of citadel (minus og), and of course who can forget our favorite alliance odn

these people ignored their obligations as well

Id really like to see you explaining how Gremlins ignored their obligations.

[HellAngel]

Your statement is that the NPO will get their punishment, while their other treaty partners will not be punished. What other logical inference can be drawn?

They started THIS war. So its logical that they pay for their aggressiveness. Its as easy as that.

Of course feelings regarding past actions of the NPO also play a role for the motivation of alliances to join the Karma side.

But i said nowhere NPO is responsible for everything wrong in the cyberverse. Actually, there are much worse alliances. That point is moot though, since those alliances didnt start this war.

[Mack Truck]

Being a member of the Hegemonis side, I can tell you, I hold no ill will toward any alliance on the opposition. Maybe this is because we were beat at our own game, and called out, then learned from it. Maybe it is because I couldn't care which alliances are in control of what. Its a game.

As you just said, it's a game. So long as Karma doesn't force anyone out of the game then there's no issue here. NPO extorted 82k in tech from my alliance, for example, and I see no reason they shouldn't give what was ours back. There's no hypocrisy in it. If someone steals from you, whether it's in tech, dongs or freedom then you are within your rights to get what was yours or the equivelant in some other form. "Teaching a lesson" isn't as important as what some would call "revenge" but what is essentially restitution. Whether it bites us in the rear later on isn't important in the slightest.

[D34th]

Out of respect for Grub I will be ending our little exchange here. If you wish to continue hit me up on IRC some night or in private message.

Fine, check your inbox messages.

[uaciaut]

Want to stop the cycle? A term in any NPO peace deal should be that they are not allowed to have any treaty greater than a nonaggression pact with any alliance in perpetuity, and they should be granted a blanket nonaggression pact with all alliances at war with them under those same terms. Take away their meat shield and NPO isn't so tough. They will still be able to defend themselves but they certainly won't be starting any more curbstomps.

Without someone breathing down my neck i would eventually grow bored with the game because competition itself is the main fuel here.

So NPO want it all and they think everyone else has either 2 options - bow down to them or stay against them. Well in the end they're right (as you can see lol), but the main issue at hand is that no one else besides them ever played to win so far, everyone just molded their FA policies to fit NPO's.

Anyway my point is taking NPO's fangs off won't change much. If anything they're a predator we are somewhat used to and people know what to expect of them and that they will aim for #1 again. Without treaties someone would take their place or CN would just become stagnant again because alliances within the hegemony won't know who to follow around.

The worst thing about calling the movement "Karma" is that it relies on the idea of moral superiority

I stopped reading there. Seriously have you been paying any attention to what has been said so far? Karma never pretended to be a world police of any kind.

[enderland]

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything that Wentworth has just said. If there is a lesson to be learned from the fall of the Hegemony, it is that force is not the best means of maintaining order on Planet Bob. I'm interested to see if this lesson gets learned by the folks who will now be taking the reigns.

It did work for several years however. I'd say that was pretty effective

[Nintenderek]

Not to belabor a point but this is exactly the sort of thinking that I was talking about earlier when I said it's inevitable that there will be tyranny. As long as there are folks who think they're the good guys and it's their role to fight the bad guys and keep them suppressed, there will be alliances and blocs that oppress others.

I called them the good guys, because I was speaking directly to Margrave, whom of which is on the same side as I. So to both of us, they would be the good guys. Is it opinion? Yes. Does it make sense? Also yes. The difference between this, and the tyranny that your alliance has helped to continue, is that your alliance will rebuild. How many alliances have you and your allies taken advantage of with reps after already getting a !@#$ load of tech from the war itself? How many alliances have had to disband because of the hegemony? That won't happen any more. It shouldn't happen any more. If Karma does do that, they'll make an enemy out of me, that's for sure. My point is to let people rebuild, so that there may then be more war. Who needs harsh terms? They aren't important. If alliances rebuild, there's then more war, and that means more fun for all. And when I saw war, I don't mean these big alliance rollings of the past where everyone gangs up on one alliance. I mean equal war, with two sides and lots of alliances on both sides, ripping each other apart.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Baden-Württemberg]

You damn us to more conflict. There is a difference between taking that cruel power the enemy has held up once in order to end the cycle, and becoming the beast.

What's wrong with more conflict? This is a game, only 3 weeks ago people wanted more conflict....Conflicts keep this game interesting.