2nd Triannual Report of the 5th Year of Order

[Germanic Republic]

Being on my side does not exempt you from not liking what I say, GR

If you would mind elaborating on what it is exactly that turned you off about what I said, perhaps I can explain it a bit more clearly? I'm assuming that you took it in the same sense as watchman did, that is me telling him to "do something about it." Now, I understand how that can seem pretty jerkish, I have to defend my own words and persuade you that the tone and context in which this is said is not the standard "do something about it" that others have stuck with.

No. This is something coming from a person who has stood on the losing side of battle before. This is coming from someone who did not JUST voice his concerns on the forums, but HAS backed up his words. And that is something which I think you are familiar with as well, not just as a fellow member of Nueva Vida, but given your previous alliance history as well.

My invitation to Watchman to fight against those who he thinks are hypocrites is nothing more than an invitation to join the revolution which has swept across Planet Bob in the last year (or so). I may not agree with what Watchman has to say (in fact, I definitely don't)... but I do support his right to say it, and I think he should fight for it. If he says he does not wish to fight due to priorities elsewhere, then by all means, all the power to him. But fighting for a cause is nothing short of noble, and unlike Pacifica and the rest of the Hegemony, we have never been out to silence all opposition. Hell, I dare say if he had taken me up on my offer, he would have even thanked me afterwards. Losing some infra in exchange for the freedom of expression is never regrettable.

I hope this has shed a little more light on the meaning behind my words.

Mostly. I understand the context in which you said it now. I assumed you were using the same "lol do somethin' about it" I've heard used so very often in the past.

Good to know you weren't being snide.

[Voxamerica]

Congratulations to Mary for her well-deserved promotion. And to Sir Paul, for a fine report.

[Näktergal]

SSSW18's final terms were not total white peace, but very reasonable. Better than traditionally are given. They show a lack of bitterness that starts new wars. If this is what Karma calls "stiff" terms for so-called NPO supporters, then this matter will end sooner and with less bloodshed.

If we're going to be honest with ourselves, the SSSW18 terms were about the only ones in the midst of a dozen other surrenders that had terms at all beyond white peace, and half the people posting in the surrender threat were Karma supporters complaining that there were terms at all. So it was clearly more of an aberration or outlier than it was a sign of things to come.

It's interesting to note, however, that dozens of other alliances that DID get white peace, yet none of them were mentioned or addressed in the article. Almost as if he was desperately trying to spin PR gold out of the straw he'd been given, and just couldn't manage to pull it off. Imagine that.

There has certainly been some effort towards coordination and mutual agreement, it just hasn't been all that successful.

I'd say the Karma "High Command" is almost certainly much like the leadership of the CoaLUEtion was back in GWI - namely, the leaders of a number of closely allied alliances standing side-by-side against a common foe, but still retaining a great deal (possibly TOO much) of autonomy. They're "unified" now, but as the war goes on, I absolutely expect the cracks to start showing between alliances that just want this war to end and those willing to push on for months, between those who simply want to weaken the NPO versus those who want to cripple or kill it, and between those who feel it's appropriate to use the methods of the enemy against it as opposed to those who seek to lead by example.

If Karma IS enough like the CoaLUEtion for events to repeat themselves, we can expect that those differences will eventually lead one alliance or another to eventually pull out, "abandoning" their allies. Then another will follow. Once enough alliances have dropped out, the remaining ones will be forced to either seek peace with the NPO or risk a grinding war. That's absolutely what happened in GWI - the people who wanted the NPO broken were left swinging in the wind by allies who were content with what had already been done - and were forced to end hostilities long before they otherwise would have.

In fact, I suspect that's absolutely what the NPO is currently waiting for. They're waiting for enemy morale to drop, and trying to work on those cracks as much as possible, to accelerate the process. Then, when Karma falls apart, they can potentially angle for peace, then use the resources they conserved in peace mode to quickly rebuild. I also suspect that, much like GWI, they'd absolutely keep a list of which alliances sided with them in this war and which ones didn't, and use those notes to draw up future hit-lists. If they can hold out long enough for the relative factionalization of the enemy to end the war, they'll have more in reserve to use to rebuild. If they can guilt Karma with enough talk of "IF YOU GIVE HARSH REPS AND TERMS, YOU'RE JUST LIKE US!", they can get better terms, and rebuild faster.

In short, the NPO is being just as strategic as they always are, and they've ALWAYS been better at learning from the past than anyone else in CN.

[Paradigm]

In fact, I suspect that's absolutely what the NPO is currently waiting for.

Given some of the rhetoric has shifted from trying to create PR pressure on lenient peace terms down the road to a bit more belligerent attitude I think you can make a strong case of that’s exactly what they are waiting for and trying to accelerate.

[bzelger]

I'd say the Karma "High Command" is almost certainly much like the leadership of the CoaLUEtion was back in GWI - namely, the leaders of a number of closely allied alliances standing side-by-side against a common foe, but still retaining a great deal (possibly TOO much) of autonomy. They're "unified" now, but as the war goes on, I absolutely expect the cracks to start showing between alliances that just want this war to end and those willing to push on for months, between those who simply want to weaken the NPO versus those who want to cripple or kill it, and between those who feel it's appropriate to use the methods of the enemy against it as opposed to those who seek to lead by example.

If Karma IS enough like the CoaLUEtion for events to repeat themselves, we can expect that those differences will eventually lead one alliance or another to eventually pull out, "abandoning" their allies. Then another will follow. Once enough alliances have dropped out, the remaining ones will be forced to either seek peace with the NPO or risk a grinding war. That's absolutely what happened in GWI - the people who wanted the NPO broken were left swinging in the wind by allies who were content with what had already been done - and were forced to end hostilities long before they otherwise would have.

In fact, I suspect that's absolutely what the NPO is currently waiting for. They're waiting for enemy morale to drop, and trying to work on those cracks as much as possible, to accelerate the process. Then, when Karma falls apart, they can potentially angle for peace, then use the resources they conserved in peace mode to quickly rebuild. I also suspect that, much like GWI, they'd absolutely keep a list of which alliances sided with them in this war and which ones didn't, and use those notes to draw up future hit-lists. If they can hold out long enough for the relative factionalization of the enemy to end the war, they'll have more in reserve to use to rebuild. If they can guilt Karma with enough talk of "IF YOU GIVE HARSH REPS AND TERMS, YOU'RE JUST LIKE US!", they can get better terms, and rebuild faster.

In short, the NPO is being just as strategic as they always are, and they've ALWAYS been better at learning from the past than anyone else in CN.

You should post more.

You make good points. I'm not sure that I agree that that the NPO learns better than other groups though. They've just had fewer qualms about implementing some very effective strategies that others might balk at due to concerns of sportsmanship. That still works to their advantage, but there's been a fair bit of learning on our side since GWI too, I think (admittedly I wasn't around for it), and we currently have the military position to cover our self-imposed handicap. I think it will hold too, although I'd prefer not to venture too far down that road in this venue.

[Venizelos]

while enjoyable, this announcement is pretty hilarious at points. more specifically, when you dare compare SSSW18 terms with GATO terms.

We at the Order are pleased to see that as part of their surrender terms, She Said She Was 18 is being forced to sell technology to the victors of their conflict. When the New Pacific Order pioneered this form of economic development with GATO we were roundly criticized for turning the alliance into a “tech farm,” even though we did not set a minimum amount that must be turned over, allowed nations who did not want to tech deal to opt out, and we paid more to GATO nations than the SSSW18 nations are receiving. The Order is pleased that Karma is moving to the Pacifican position, but as a gesture of goodwill to Karma, the Pacific Bank, when aid slots are available, will be sending retirement bonuses to SSSW18 tech dealers so that their forced labor will receive the same pay as volunteer GATO workers. This will ensure that your generous demands will create full economic development for the alliance.

GATO ended up with 1k AVNS after months of war... was forced to have a viceroy for almost a year... and became a long run tech farm selling way more than the 10k SSSW18 will have to sell.

aditionally, the SSSW18 rate is 3ml/100 tech... i don't think the NPO rate for GATO was better than that.

if anything, the part about GATO is deeply insulting everyone's intelligence and any GATOans who were forced to live under the NPO terms.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Venizelos

[Ragashingo]

In short, the NPO is being just as strategic as they always are, and they've ALWAYS been better at learning from the past than anyone else in CN.

Hopefully they learn that their tactics over the past three years are no longer acceptable to the community at large.

[Ragashingo]

while enjoyable, this announcement is pretty hilarious at points. more specifically, when you dare compare SSSW18 terms with GATO terms.

GATO ended up with 1k AVNS after months of war... was forced to have a viceroy for almost a year... and became a long run tech farm selling way more than the 10k SSSW18 will have to sell.

aditionally, the SSSW18 rate is 3ml/100 tech... i don't think the NPO rate for GATO was better than that.

if anything, the part about GATO is deeply insulting everyone's intelligence and any GATOans who were forced to live under the NPO terms.

Well said.

[Heracles the Great]

I'm not sure what's more saddening - that he expects people to buy this load of crap, or that there are people within "Francograd" that actually do buy it...

[RandomInterrupt]

However, pundits noted that Mary's gender had little to do with her appointment, as her vast qualifications, which include being head of the Green Protection Agency and besting Admin at Scrabble, make her a natural choice to lead an alliance dedicated to Peace, Strength and Prosperity.

What's sad is, this is written in your usual pseudo-sarcastic manner, yet it is completely true. Those are her sole qualifications. But I guess it makes sense to plan to replace a follower with a follower. Wouldn't want to mess up a good thing.

[Strykewolf]

They tried.

Did they? If so, were they successful?

Well thanks to interference from other Karma leadership, they weren't able to get away with it. For that I'm thankful, and I think it illustrates that Karma isn't competely united in how to deal with peace terms.

In all honesty, Jipps.... WTF are you doing?

Its like herding cats. And you know it.

[Walker Texas Ranger]

Moldavi Youth? Sort of like, you know, Hitler Youth?

Does this end with Moo and Mary in a bunker with a bottle of cyanide?

[Kenix700]

NPO has to be the king of hypocrisy by now. I mean come on, crying about the way Karma treats its surrender victims? Please. Your finally getting what you deserve.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Kenix700

[Razgriz]

The NPO really needs to make sure they don't make promises they can't keep. Great propaganda though.

I also think it would be ironic if this ended up being one of the terms for the NPO, because most of us have enough intelligence to realize that it's just talk:

as a gesture of goodwill to Karma, the Pacific Bank, when aid slots are available, will be sending retirement bonuses to SSSW18 tech dealers so that their forced labor will receive the same pay as volunteer GATO workers. This will ensure that your generous demands will create full economic development for the alliance.

It was your guys' idea after all.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Razgriz

[Chief Savage Man]

Some real clever jokes in there.

Not really.

3/10

[Pyroman]

Hm, sarcastically discrediting Karma in your alliance report? Not only do I doubt that doing such a thing was mentioned as a goal of any sort in the Emperor's speech last August, but I fail to see how you could think it prudent or think that it would be some sort of means to an end.

It's not even all that funny (at least not to a srs bsnss type person like me) aside from your various enemies laughing at you. Your propaganda falls on deaf ears with Karma alliances and neutral alliances are indifferent. It comes off as "We, the Hegemony is really bitter about all of this and will obviously resort to pettiness as a result". Poor show.

On the other hand, congrats to Mary the Fantabulous, even though I don't know you. Good luck as regent.

[Näktergal]

I'm not sure that I agree that that the NPO learns better than other groups though. They've just had fewer qualms about implementing some very effective strategies that others might balk at due to concerns of sportsmanship.

I know my old alliance basically spent the entire time post-GWI right up until I left accurately predicting every single major maneuver and war months in advance, based solely on the fact that the people in power kept doing the same things over and over and over again. But people absolutely kept walking into the same traps and falling for the same PR manipulation, which led us to conclude that most of CN is either willfully blind, incurably stupid, or just doesn't pay close enough attention to things. I think which one applies depends greatly on the individual in question, but it's definitely true that a lot of people, including the leaders of some alliances, have never seemed all that good at learning the lessons of the past.

Until recently, the NPO used to be very good at learning from their own mistakes, and the mistakes of others. And even the recent situation seems less that they failed to learn from mistakes as much as they grew overly complacent. I absolutely think that if any alliance could crawl out of the hole they're being rapidly hammered into, it would be the NPO.

I've always respected their ability to play the game well, even if they played it in a way I'd never personally want to play. Whatever else people want to say about them, they ARE good at the game. ALL facets of the game.

What's sad is, this is written in your usual pseudo-sarcastic manner, yet it is completely true. Those are her sole qualifications. But I guess it makes sense to plan to replace a follower with a follower. Wouldn't want to mess up a good thing.

I've always found it interesting how Mary seemed to enjoy near-universal respect and acclaim when she was a mod and a GPA member, but she's lost nearly all of that reputation with everyone outside of the NPO and their close allies. Which leads one to wonder, what changed? Was it how she presented herself? How others saw her? Or did she come to represent something which others hated, her own rep not being enough to overcome that?

[Vhalen]

I'd say the Karma "High Command" is almost certainly much like the leadership of the CoaLUEtion was back in GWI - namely, the leaders of a number of closely allied alliances standing side-by-side against a common foe, but still retaining a great deal (possibly TOO much) of autonomy. They're "unified" now, but as the war goes on, I absolutely expect the cracks to start showing between alliances that just want this war to end and those willing to push on for months, between those who simply want to weaken the NPO versus those who want to cripple or kill it, and between those who feel it's appropriate to use the methods of the enemy against it as opposed to those who seek to lead by example.

If Karma IS enough like the CoaLUEtion for events to repeat themselves, we can expect that those differences will eventually lead one alliance or another to eventually pull out, "abandoning" their allies. Then another will follow. Once enough alliances have dropped out, the remaining ones will be forced to either seek peace with the NPO or risk a grinding war. That's absolutely what happened in GWI - the people who wanted the NPO broken were left swinging in the wind by allies who were content with what had already been done - and were forced to end hostilities long before they otherwise would have.

Given how fast the Hegemony side has been slipping away, the question might better be whether some of the Karma alliances' leaving will even matter to the end of hostilities. I mean, right now half of Karma could leave and they'd still have numerical advantage, if my references are right.

In fact, I suspect that's absolutely what the NPO is currently waiting for. They're waiting for enemy morale to drop, and trying to work on those cracks as much as possible, to accelerate the process. Then, when Karma falls apart, they can potentially angle for peace, then use the resources they conserved in peace mode to quickly rebuild. I also suspect that, much like GWI, they'd absolutely keep a list of which alliances sided with them in this war and which ones didn't, and use those notes to draw up future hit-lists. If they can hold out long enough for the relative factionalization of the enemy to end the war, they'll have more in reserve to use to rebuild. If they can guilt Karma with enough talk of "IF YOU GIVE HARSH REPS AND TERMS, YOU'RE JUST LIKE US!", they can get better terms, and rebuild faster.

They've done a fine job of building up morale on the other side, over the past few years. I wonder how many weeks it'll take for it to fall. I do hope we see more posts like this, though. Well reasoned, well written, and bringing up exactly what people need to see. Hit-lists, you say? Just the sort of thing needed to hold things together another week...another two weeks...another month?

In short, the NPO is being just as strategic as they always are, and they've ALWAYS been better at learning from the past than anyone else in CN.

It certainly took them a while to notice all their best PR guys were jumping ship, no matter how extravagantly they left. Strange, you'd think that would've been a red flag of some sort.

Edit:

I've always found it interesting how Mary seemed to enjoy near-universal respect and acclaim when she was a mod and a GPA member, but she's lost nearly all of that reputation with everyone outside of the NPO and their close allies. Which leads one to wonder, what changed? Was it how she presented herself? How others saw her? Or did she come to represent something which others hated, her own rep not being enough to overcome that?

You know, I don't know anything about Mary. Never spoken to her, never met her. I guess congrats. Who knows, maybe she'll be in charge soon. The current Emperor seems to have screwed the pooch pretty phenominally. Certainly can't do much worse.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Vhalen

[hm4a1]

Ever been laughed at while saluting your enemy? Enjoy it.

-HM

[Prodigal Moon]

If Karma IS enough like the CoaLUEtion for events to repeat themselves, we can expect that those differences will eventually lead one alliance or another to eventually pull out, "abandoning" their allies. Then another will follow. Once enough alliances have dropped out, the remaining ones will be forced to either seek peace with the NPO or risk a grinding war. That's absolutely what happened in GWI - the people who wanted the NPO broken were left swinging in the wind by allies who were content with what had already been done - and were forced to end hostilities long before they otherwise would have.

I wasn't around for GWI, but from my understanding, the NPO is a much, much smaller fraction of total world NS at this point. Even if they got white peace from the "official" members of Karma today, only about 3% of the world's NS would need to jump in to finish them off.

[Mussolandia]

What is this "Alliance Defense Network" and "Nazi Germany" you speak of?. Is it some sort of cult on Planet Bob?

Who is this "Francos Spain" you speak of? I never recall him existing on Planet Bob.

*zing*

EDIT: Congratulations to Mary, even if they did break the cardinal rule of "no women in positions of power"

Edited May 3, 2009 by Mussolandia

[RossGarner]

Moldavi Youth? Sort of like, you know, Hitler Youth?

Does this end with Moo and Mary in a bunker with a bottle of cyanide?

Sir Paul was making fun of people who resort to such low brow criticism like calling the NPO Nazis.

[Melchior]

Nicely written as always.

[Germanic Republic]

Moldavi Youth? Sort of like, you know, Hitler Youth?

Does this end with Moo and Mary in a bunker with a bottle of cyanide?

Nothing gets by you, eagle eye.

[JayOvfEnnay]

Oh look, Sir Paul writing a credible and truthful piece on the progress of our number one alliance propaganda piece attempting to skip the fact that NPO is doing horribly and insinuate that Karma is somehow growing to be like NPO.

41 words in the above statement, subtract the two numbers and put it over ten to find out my rating on this piece.

Edited May 3, 2009 by JayOvfEnnay