SSSW18 Surrenders

[Doitzel]

Actually to be fair TORN was similarly honourable in that coalition and completely waived any reps.

Also, the GATO surrender terms (whereby GATO was not allowed to receive foreign aid, was forced to fight many weeks of warfare at ZI with no end in sight, and later had a viceroy imposed on their alliance for almost a year) did happen several months before the NoCB war. There was payment for tech at the going rate and then ofcourse the 'retirement bonus'.

Again that part of the terms although significant due to the other restrictions in place was the least of our concerns. Something Sir Paul can not seem to comprehend.

(It was mostly out of neccessity initally anyways considering most of the members hit ZI some several times and could not possibly produce tech.)

I confess that I did not put the usual fact-checking effort into my post because frankly the assertions I was rebuking were so absurd I didn't -- and still don't -- think they warrant such a waste of time. The point, I think we can all agree, is that having to do tech deals is not anywhere near as bad as simple reparations, which are amoung the more lenient of terms imposed by NPO and company. If that is the worst SSSW18 is getting as a second round then they and nobody else have anything to complain about whatsoever.

[King DrunkWino]

And the age old question remains unanswered: Who is the more foolish, the troll or the fool who feeds him?

[kingzog]

And the age old question remains unanswered: Who is the more foolish, the troll or the fool who feeds him?

I believe the answer is: the person whose signature appears in the OP who keeps opening this thread expecting sensible comments from either SSSW18 or those it faced in battle.

[Bob Ilyani]

Congrats to all on peace.

[Taget]

I believe the answer is: the person whose signature appears in the OP who keeps opening this thread expecting sensible comments from either SSSW18 or those it faced in battle.

For the hundredth time. We're fine with the final outcome. If we thought otherwise we wouldn't have signed and would've gladly taken ourselves to oblivion if proper terms weren't reached. We're stupidly stubborn that way.

However the general rule does apply that any thread that goes beyond say 3 pages has degenerated into something generally not worth viewing by anyone besides those goulishly interested in viewing carwrecks. There is a lot of goading and mistatement of peripheral issues (and no side is immune from it) that invites comment but no worthwhile good can come of it. Dead worn out thread needs to die.

[Vhalen]

For the hundredth time. We're fine with the final outcome. If we thought otherwise we wouldn't have signed and would've gladly taken ourselves to oblivion if proper terms weren't reached. We're stupidly stubborn that way.

However the general rule does apply that any thread that goes beyond say 3 pages has degenerated into something generally not worth viewing by anyone besides those goulishly interested in viewing carwrecks. There is a lot of goading and mistatement of peripheral issues (and no side is immune from it) that invites comment but no worthwhile good can come of it. Dead worn out thread needs to die.

It's probably be a blessing for everyone if MyWorld asked for a lock.

[MaGneT]

To honor our treaties despite odds against us? I'm sure that's what DT would want from it's allies.

For the hundredth time. We're fine with the final outcome. If we thought otherwise we wouldn't have signed and would've gladly taken ourselves to oblivion if proper terms weren't reached. We're stupidly stubborn that way.

And that's why I like you.

It's probably be a blessing for everyone if MyWorld asked for a lock.

OOC: Authors rights don't exist anymore.

[CaptainJohn]

Interesting terms of surrender.

[Rebel Virginia]

I fail to see why SSSW18 needs to be forced into doing tech deals. All they did was honor a treaty. Now, if this were an alliance such as GGA, TPF, Valhalla, or IRON, who each in their own right have committed wrongs, then I could understand. But SSSW18? I am aware of no crimes done by this alliance. They have simply honored a treaty. Why no white peace?

[General Ozujsko]

They were offered peace once and turned it down.

[Rebel Virginia]

They were offered peace once and turned it down.

And your point is? Since when has that been relevant? They decided to stick with their allies until they were no longer capable of fighting. That is a commendable act, and I fail to see why not taking peace at the first offer should revoke any chance of white peace being received. Chances are even then they weren't interested in peace, seeing as how they could still fight. I want to know exactly why they should not have been given white peace. Furthermore I want to know what exactly you are hoping to accomplish with this.

[King DrunkWino]

And the age old question remains unanswered: Who is the more foolish, the troll or the fool who feeds him?

Addendum: Or is the one who sends a PM taunt?

:lol:

[kingzog]

For the hundredth time. We're fine with the final outcome. If we thought otherwise we wouldn't have signed and would've gladly taken ourselves to oblivion if proper terms weren't reached. We're stupidly stubborn that way.

Not arguing with you, btw. My name is on the agreement between our alliances.

I just don't get the fascination from others who have no interest beyond trying to score points against each other in a debate neither of us really cares about.

Dead worn out thread needs to die.

/me nods and flees

[Jipps]

They were offered peace once and turned it down.

Just to set the record straight, there also a requirement of an apology attatched to that white peace. There was evidence to prove contrary to the apology, that's why the original terms were rejected.

[Rebel Virginia]

Just to set the record straight, there also a requirement of an apology attatched to that white peace. There was evidence to prove contrary to the apology, that's why the original terms were rejected.

Oh, so an apology as well? That's not white peace. Furthermore, what did SSSW18 do during this war that merits an apology? Honoring a treaty?

Edited May 2, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[AuiNur]

And your point is? Since when has that been relevant? They decided to stick with their allies until they were no longer capable of fighting. That is a commendable act, and I fail to see why not taking peace at the first offer should revoke any chance of white peace being received. Chances are even then they weren't interested in peace, seeing as how they could still fight. I want to know exactly why they should not have been given white peace. Furthermore I want to know what exactly you are hoping to accomplish with this.

Arguments for both sides were stated numerous times in the previous posts. In order to stop this thread from going into the 20+ pages, I would suggest you read them.

Oh, so an apology as well? That's not white peace. Furthermore, what did SSSW18 do during this war that merits an apology? Honor a treaty?

I think it was because SSSW18 attacked MOON.

Edited May 2, 2009 by AuiNur

[Rebel Virginia]

Arguments for both sides were stated numerous times in the previous posts. In order to stop this thread from going into the 20+ pages, I would suggest you read them.

I think it was because SSSW18 attacked MOON.

I don't care. I'm still not convinced. Your reasoning is that they didn't accept white peace the first time, so you have told me why, but you have not told me why. In case you can't figure it out, I'm expecting a philosophical answer.

Also, it has recently come to my attention that MOON demanded 600 million in reps, because they violated a "non-nuclear agreement." Forget the fact this is war and they should have expected to get nuked, but furthermore MOON called off the agreement once TOOL entered the war. Who are they to complain?

Let's see, you find a position of power and try to extort reps from someone because you think you can get away with it. Call it negotiations all you want, but don't forget that you had a gun to their head. This is crock and you it. I will not let this stand.

This is what I fought against personally for years. This is what Karma collectively is saying it is fighting against. And you have then nerve to even attempt extortion? And for honoring a treaty? Remember how many alliances on the Karma side decried the reps demanded from GR, STA, MK, and others for simply honoring treaties? Look at you.

As for the tech deals, they are lenient. They aren't horrible, and in any other war I would have no issue with them being issued as terms. Not this war however. This war, this whole war we are fighting for, this was supposed to mean something. The issuing of white peace to all who honor treaties. That was supposed to be a statement. But now, it's gone, and it's all because of you. And all for naught.

Why? Tell me in six months, a year, if these terms will have been worth it. Your greed for profit, your petty desire to slam your defeated opponents face into the dirt, makes you feel powerful, doesn't it? Above the consequences, eh? So much that you can extort this alliance in private channels, where none well see it, knowing that if any of this ever saw the light of day no one would stand for it. This is exactly how the NPO operates, and though you're not quite there yet, you just took the first step. All because you had to compromise your own principles.

Congratulations. This is no longer a war for justice, for a higher cause. This is another war, one to remove a threat to our own interests. Because of this. Granted the terms will be remembered as being remarkably light for the most part, and we will all benefit from the NPO no longer being in power. But still, the fact remains that we're not fighting for something more now.

You have no idea what you have done here, do you?

[mattski133]

I don't care. I'm still not convinced. Your reasoning is that they didn't accept white peace the first time, so you have told me why, but you have not told me why. In case you can't figure it out, I'm expecting a philosophical answer.

Also, it has recently come to my attention that MOON demanded 600 million in reps, because they violated a "non-nuclear agreement." Forget the fact this is war and they should have expected to get nuked, but furthermore MOON called off the agreement once TOOL entered the war. Who are they to complain?

Let's see, you find a position of power and try to extort reps from someone because you think you can get away with it. Call it negotiations all you want, but don't forget that you had a gun to their head. This is crock and you it. I will not let this stand.

This is what I fought against personally for years. This is what Karma collectively is saying it is fighting against. And you have then nerve to even attempt extortion? And for honoring a treaty? Remember how many alliances on the Karma side decried the reps demanded from GR, STA, MK, and others for simply honoring treaties? Look at you.

As for the tech deals, they are lenient. They aren't horrible, and in any other war I would have no issue with them being issued as terms. Not this war however. This war, this whole war we are fighting for, this was supposed to mean something. The issuing of white peace to all who honor treaties. That was supposed to be a statement. But now, it's gone, and it's all because of you. And all for naught.

Why? Tell me in six months, a year, if these terms will have been worth it. Your greed for profit, your petty desire to slam your defeated opponents face into the dirt, makes you feel powerful, doesn't it? Above the consequences, eh? So much that you can extort this alliance in private channels, where none well see it, knowing that if any of this ever saw the light of day no one would stand for it. This is exactly how the NPO operates, and though you're not quite there yet, you just took the first step. All because you had to compromise your own principles.

Congratulations. This is no longer a war for justice, for a higher cause. This is another war, one to remove a threat to our own interests. Because of this. Granted the terms will be remembered as being remarkably light for the most part, and we will all benefit from the NPO no longer being in power. But still, the fact remains that we're not fighting for something more now.

You have no idea what you have done here, do you?

Please see my PM. Your information is not correct.

[AbysmalPea]

Best surrender terms of the war, if only because of the discussion they're causing.

Edited May 2, 2009 by AbysmalPea

[MaGneT]

I fail to see why SSSW18 needs to be forced into doing tech deals. All they did was honor a treaty. Now, if this were an alliance such as GGA, TPF, Valhalla, or IRON, who each in their own right have committed wrongs, then I could understand. But SSSW18? I am aware of no crimes done by this alliance. They have simply honored a treaty. Why no white peace?

And your point is? Since when has that been relevant? They decided to stick with their allies until they were no longer capable of fighting. That is a commendable act, and I fail to see why not taking peace at the first offer should revoke any chance of white peace being received. Chances are even then they weren't interested in peace, seeing as how they could still fight. I want to know exactly why they should not have been given white peace. Furthermore I want to know what exactly you are hoping to accomplish with this.

White peace, we felt, was no longer appropriate.

DT, BH, LSR and MOON decided that some type of "punitive" (for true lack of a better word, it isn't at all to punish them) term was in order. Nothing truly painful. Just tech deals.

In case you were unaware, RV, tech deals benefit all parties involved.

I don't look at the theoretical connotations of what we did, I view things pragmatically. Our side replenishes our lost tech, SSSW18's middle and little guys get rebuilt.

I can say (with confidence) that if SSSW18 declined the tech term, it probably would have slid by.

I can also say that I am personally developing an economic plan for DT and SSSW18 to mutually rebuild. Of course, I'm not sure that it will be sent into action, nor am I sure that MOON, BH or LSR will also adopt it, but I'm quite sure DT has no intention of harming SSSW18. As I've said multiple times in this thread, my hope is that DT does quite the opposite.

Congratulations. This is no longer a war for justice, for a higher cause. This is another war, one to remove a threat to our own interests.

I don't view SSSW18 as a threat to our interests whatsoever.

I also don't see how tech deals make this war no longer about justice.

Edited May 2, 2009 by MaGneT

[Taget]

White peace, we felt, was no longer appropriate.

DT, BH, LSR and MOON decided that some type of "punitive" (for true lack of a better word, it isn't at all to punish them) term was in order. Nothing truly painful. Just tech deals.

In case you were unaware, RV, tech deals benefit all parties involved.

I don't look at the theoretical connotations of what we did, I view things pragmatically. Our side replenishes our lost tech, SSSW18's middle and little guys get rebuilt.

I can say (with confidence) that if SSSW18 declined the tech term, it probably would have slid by.

I can also say that I am personally developing an economic plan for DT and SSSW18 to mutually rebuild. Of course, I'm not sure that it will be sent into action, nor am I sure that MOON, BH or LSR will also adopt it, but I'm quite sure DT has no intention of harming SSSW18. As I've said multiple times in this thread, my hope is that DT does quite the opposite.

The war is over and we look forward to working with you in the future.

[mattski133]

I suddenly feel the urge to replace the tech deal with free hugs. Attack MOON, get free hugs. Hell, even if you're just a bystander with a big mouth, free hugs.

EDIT: /sarcasm

Edited May 2, 2009 by mattski133

[Affluenza]

These are also the first terms that had to be approved by Karma command. Again, I have no issue with the terms, it's just interesting to see peace terms that must be approved by the leadership of a coalition. Mr. Archon was not pleased by DT and allies giving up "unnecessary concessions" to TOOL and FnKa, and I can't help but wonder if he instituted this new approval system in order to assure that future Hegemony alliances surrendering will "pay".

-Bama

I never knew Archon was leader of the coalition...

You also said the same thing ealier in this thread...we got the message first time round.

Just to chime in with my own opinion here...

I don't think it's a secret that Hegemony will have to "pay" in some way...white peace should not be adopted for every single alliance on the other side. If you thought so then your obviously very naive and misguided just like calling Archon the leader of Karma is very misguided of you.

[Rebel Virginia]

White peace, we felt, was no longer appropriate.

DT, BH, LSR and MOON decided that some type of "punitive" (for true lack of a better word, it isn't at all to punish them) term was in order. Nothing truly painful. Just tech deals.

In case you were unaware, RV, tech deals benefit all parties involved.

I don't look at the theoretical connotations of what we did, I view things pragmatically. Our side replenishes our lost tech, SSSW18's middle and little guys get rebuilt

And why did you feel that white peace was no longer in order? Your answer that it was simply the case does not satisfy. There has to be a reason. Either you are simply greedy and are taking advantage of the situation in order to economically profit, or SSSW18 committed some act justifying the punishment. You will either come out and and admit that you are simply profiteering, and stop trying to hide it, or you will present evidence of some sort of wrong doing on the part of SSSW18.

As for tech deals, as a dealer I am aware of the benefits to smaller nations, so you don't have to spell it out for me. I am criticizing this on principle. This war was a protest of the policies of the NPO, and that is why nothing but white peace was offered up until this point. Maybe that wasn't the reasoning behind all cases, but they certainly made this statement. By doing this you have negated everything. This has become just another war. Do you not understand?

You did not have to force them into doing tech deals by making it a term for peace. An agreement could have been arranged, either formally or informally, after hostilities had ended. Why did you choose to go about this way instead, and in the process compromise what has been done?

[General Ozujsko]

Yo, MyWorld, request a lock.