The Explanation as to why Soldier Picked TPF

[OneBallMan]

You know TPF went and offered a surrender the first night of the war, right?

Keep saying it, it doesn't make it true. The person who said that seems to have conveniently "lost" the logs that back up his constant repeating of that statement. He also says that no one ever says that he is lying about it. That it has become a BS talking point in the tinfoil hat club isn't a surprise. I like you WC, always have, but I am surprised that you'd fall for the old Dog Ate My Homework crap from somebody who seems to have logs ready to dump on every other convo they ever had but this one is mysteriously invisible.

Every time he has said it, I've contradicted it. And I always will.

Thanks, theAut.

edit: After reading your post to Bsim, Slayer does log everything, so if in turn he does produce logs to me that admit that he told you this, I will apologize on this forum both to you and the purveyor of the invisible logs.

Edited April 19, 2009 by OneBallMan

[Leftbehind]

No one on my side of the web knows true friendship

Friendship in cybernations

Anyways AUT whatever your reasons for aligning with TPF is your problem not ours but your attempt of making TPF look like rosy cheeked jolly fat men is annoying. I'm sorry if I see alternative motives with them protecting you. Think about it, you said you told them you would ally one of their foes. You see why keeping Soilder happy would be in their best interest, right?

[SpiderJerusalem]

For once in my CN career someone stood up for me. Despite my past, despite all that has happened to me before, someone gave me a shoulder to lean on.

*ehem*

say what?

[Felix von Agnu]

Allow me to say, that working with AUT has been fun. He's not at all a bad guy. Now, I have made every effort to help Soldier stay together, not because it helps fit some bigger political agenda, but because I honestly wanted them to succeed as an alliance. Personally, I hate seeing an alliance disband, because its the death of a community. (I realize what TPF has done in the past, but so many people push for second chances of individuals, why can an alliance not seek atonement for its past?)

I would also like to make one last statement. This is aimed at Doitzel, AvengerNL, and all the others making references to Misr. If EZI is a practice you hate, why do you mock another person because they rerolled? Should they not deserve another chance? For being opponents of EZI you seem to practice your own, less physically destructive, version of it.

[Earogema]

This thread is about Soldier's and more specifically TheAUT's relation with TPF. Holding such grudges against us for actions that happened before many of our current gov had nations and indeed more than a year before I joined are only sign's of pettiness to the highest degree.

If this is the case, why does TPF hold treaties predating your reign?

Some things do indeed transfer. Your history exists, and you cannot simply wash it away under the guise of "I wasn't in power back then, and most of us were not."

No apology was ever given for those actions, Slayer has never paid, or even so much as admitted his wrong doing. You allow him to wear you AA and defend him as a respected member of TPF.

Face it. Just as in the real world, a historic action carries with you. The repercussions of the actions are still there.

Edited April 20, 2009 by MegaAros

[Dochartaigh]

frankly, everyone can be nice and everyone can be a dick. just cuz they were nice to you does not make them a great alliance. ask NoV how wonderful TPF can be? seriously, any alliance can do something good or something bad. it all depends on which viewpoint you have or want.

For example, them helping you out could very well have upset others, making the good they did for you, bad for someone else. This could easily be said of any alliance in CN and every leader. We all like good PR and most don't like bad PR. some don't care either way. and as the saying goes "Someone else's trash is another's treasure".

[Stumpy Jung Il]

If this is the case, why does TPF hold treaties predating your reign?

Some things do indeed transfer. Your history exists, and you cannot simply wash it away under the guise of "I wasn't in power back then, and most of us were not."

No apology was ever given for those actions, Slayer has never paid, or even so much as admitted his wrong doing. You allow him to wear you AA and defend him as a respected member of TPF.

Face it. Just as in the real world, a historic action carries with you. The repercussions of the actions are still there.

I think this basic concept applies to a lot of alliances who cry, "But it wasn't us then!" It needs to be remembered that somethings, like pieces of history, remain despite new leadership.

[New Frontier]

That is utter !@#$%^&* coming from the Vox camp. Heaven knows I'm not the biggest fan of the hegemony, but your hypocrisy is mindboggling. You say that NpO isn't responsible for being tyrants because they're different now, but apply a completely different standard to TPF.

[Chickenzilla]

That is utter !@#$%^&* coming from the Vox camp. Heaven knows I'm not the biggest fan of the hegemony, but your hypocrisy is mindboggling. You say that NpO isn't responsible for being tyrants because they're different now, but apply a completely different standard to TPF.

No, they say NpO has payed. TPF has yet to pay yet.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

That is utter !@#$%^&* coming from the Vox camp. Heaven knows I'm not the biggest fan of the hegemony, but your hypocrisy is mindboggling. You say that NpO isn't responsible for being tyrants because they're different now, but apply a completely different standard to TPF.

I never stated I remotely agreed with Vox on everything they've said. Nor am I in their camp.

[Solidus117]

No, they say NpO has payed. TPF has yet to pay yet.

I see, two wrongs make a right in Vox.

[Earogema]

That is utter !@#$%^&* coming from the Vox camp. Heaven knows I'm not the biggest fan of the hegemony, but your hypocrisy is mindboggling. You say that NpO isn't responsible for being tyrants because they're different now, but apply a completely different standard to TPF.

NpO was stomped and weakened and have changed. They earned their sanction again, and have paid and owned up to their mistakes. Each member of the NpO that has stayed will more than attest to that. Some NpO members were removed and stripped from power.

The world becomes completely opposite when viewed from the bottom.

My friend, I never said people couldn't change, but mhawk and TPF have not changed at all. Polar has. E_S has. Doitzel has. Anyone else you're going to accuse of some crime while in Vox, has. Unless you're willing to say that TPF HAS changed, or that Vox DOESN'T prove change. I would dare say you would fail to prove either one.

Edited April 20, 2009 by MegaAros

[Earogema]

I see, two wrongs make a right in Vox.

I always viewed the two wrongs thing as foolish.

OH I WRONGED YOU FIRST NO WRONG BACKS.

Please. You get what is coming to you.

[mhawk]

My friend, I never said people couldn't change, but mhawk and TPF has not changed at all.

I'm kind of curious how you came to that conclusion.

[Earogema]

I'm kind of curious how you came to that conclusion.

As I said.

TPF has not apologized for their former actions. You obviously accept that those actions were in the right, and there was nothing wrong with them.

-You still use PZI, it's simply when you see fit

-You are members of Q for more than a year now

-Never once have you apologized for the NoV slaughter.

-You hold many of the same treaties you held when Slayer was in power, probably without sufficient review.

-Besides, BAPS (yeah, I'll give you BAPS) you have supported the use terrible CB's and will no doubt do it again in this coming conflict

-Slayer remains a member, probably because he recognizes TPF as his home

And those are only off the top of my head.

I will grant you that TPF has changed, and I view the mhawk reign as a good one (well as good as TPF can get). But to say that all of your membership would remain with an alliance that has drastically shifted ideals either means you have a really stupid membership, or haven't changed significantly.

Edited April 20, 2009 by MegaAros

[Jordite]

TPF has some karma that can't be escaped with a few government changes.

Soldier, as far as I know, hasn't done anything except support their ally on the forums. TPF doesn't deserve them as an ally, and I feel sad that Soldier has chosen to be one to them. I do still question whether TPF truly valued Soldier's existence (as implied in the OP) or if it was simply an opportunistic ploy to both stick it to RoK and gain points with Soldier's membership.

[magicninja]

As I said.

TPF has not apologized for their former actions. You obviously accept that those actions were in the right, and there was nothing wrong with them.

-You still use PZI, it's simply when you see fit

-You are members of Q for more than a year now

-Never once have you apologized for the NoV slaughter.

-You hold many of the same treaties you held when Slayer was in power, probably without sufficient review.

-Besides, BAPS (yeah, I'll give you BAPS) you have supported the use terrible CB's and will no doubt do it again in this coming conflict

-Slayer remains a member, probably because he recognizes TPF as his home

And those are only off the top of my head.

I will grant you that TPF has changed, and I view the mhawk reign as a good one (well as good as TPF can get). But to say that all of your membership would remain with an alliance that has drastically shifted ideals either means you have a really stupid membership, or haven't changed significantly.

TPF has never used PZI-At least not when I joined over a year ago. Thgey Practiced attack someone until they come to make good. You can call that PZI if you like but it's not.

The rest is subjective. Just something for you to talk about.

[Earogema]

TPF has never used PZI-At least not when I joined over a year ago. Thgey Practiced attack someone until they come to make good. You can call that PZI if you like but it's not.

The rest is subjective. Just something for you to talk about.

At the very least, you know my beef then.

[TheEraser]

itt someone shows why their alliance doesn't warrant a PIAT.

I C WUT U DID THAR

you crafty little devil you

[Solidus117]

I always viewed the two wrongs thing as foolish.

To coin an overused and clichéd phrase, "an eye for an eye and everyone goes blind".

Please. You get what is coming to you.

So, just for the record, once an alliance has paid it's "comeuppance", it's clean-slate and home free in the eyes of .. who? Vox? The whole world?

[bbrownso]

As I said.

TPF has not apologized for their former actions. You obviously accept that those actions were in the right, and there was nothing wrong with them.

-You still use PZI, it's simply when you see fit

-You are members of Q for more than a year now

-Never once have you apologized for the NoV slaughter.

-You hold many of the same treaties you held when Slayer was in power, probably without sufficient review.

-Besides, BAPS (yeah, I'll give you BAPS) you have supported the use terrible CB's and will no doubt do it again in this coming conflict

-Slayer remains a member, probably because he recognizes TPF as his home

And those only off the top of my head.

I will grant you that TPF has changed, and I view the mhawk reign as a good one. But to say that all of your membership would remain with an alliance that has drastically shifted ideals either means you have a really stupid membership, or haven't changed significantly.

1. No proof for this. While it seems that they have left that door open, they haven't done anything since they changed their policy.

2. so Q = evil? Then go talk to all the former signatories that have left. They were also in the Continuum for quite awhile. Oh wait, they left after long periods. That must make everything better.

3. Show me where an alliance has apologized for a war against another alliance. It's rare in the best of circumstances and will probably never happen in that situation. Trust me, if you know what some NoV members talked about, your support wouldn't be so readily available. . .I hope.

4. Not many alliances review their treaties regularly. I know my alliance doesn't and I don't see any regular treaty cancellation announcements on the forums that suggest that it is a standard practice for most alliances when power is transferred.

5. Almost everyone has used a 'horrible' CB at one time or another.

6. Slayer was the creator of TF! which is one of the alliances that merged to form TPF. As he has not done anything wrong against them, why should they have to remove him? I thought Vox fought for alliances to do what they felt is right but here you are advocating that TPF expel a former leader because you feel that's the right thing to do. That reeks of hypocrisy.

[Earogema]

To coin an overused and clichéd phrase, "an eye for an eye and everyone goes blind".

Don't wound them in the first place.

So, just for the record, once an alliance has paid it's "comeuppance", it's clean-slate and home free in the eyes of .. who? Vox? The whole world?

Subjective of course.

[magicninja]

At the very least, you know my beef then.

The only thing that is questionable on your list is the NoV affair. I've told Slayer myself that I didn't believe attacking them for what they do in RL really applied to the game. I believe they tried to amend that by fighting for KM to get off other people's ZI lists. Which alienated them from a few alliances itself. Including RoK who wanted to help GOD keep KM on their ZI list. I know helping one guy cannot make up for destroying a whole alliance but hey it was the best they could do at the time.

[Earogema]

1. No proof for this. While it seems that they have left that door open, they haven't done anything since they changed their policy.

2. so Q = evil? Then go talk to all the former signatories that have left. They were also in the Continuum for quite awhile. Oh wait, they left after long periods. That must make everything better.

3. Show me where an alliance has apologized for a war against another alliance. It's rare in the best of circumstances and will probably never happen in that situation. Trust me, if you know what some NoV members talked about, your support wouldn't be so readily available. . .I hope.

4. Not many alliances review their treaties regularly. I know my alliance doesn't and I don't see any regular treaty cancellation announcements on the forums that suggest that it is a standard practice for most alliances when power is transferred.

5. Almost everyone has used a 'horrible' CB at one time or another.

6. Slayer was the creator of TF! which is one of the alliances that merged to form TPF. As he has not done anything wrong against them, why should they have to remove him? I thought Vox fought for alliances to do what they felt is right but here you are advocating that TPF expel a former leader because you feel that's the right thing to do. That reeks of hypocrisy.

1. You have chased people and allow PZI to exist. Sure you don't use it often, doesn't mean you don't have it.

2. I never said Q was evil. My point was that TPF has not changed. Remaining in Q all this time with no plans to leave proves you have not chaged. If you leave, you have changed. Pretty easy.

3. GOONS. Done.

4. Doesn't matter. If you say you're changing, you review treaties. If you don't, you haven't changed or are upholding a pointless treaty. This is a problem.

5. Doesn't matter. It just means you haven't changed.

6. I never said you should remove him. I simply said him remaining means that TPF must have some semblance of its former self. Though, I believe he should be made to leave if TPF has changed and no longer views the NoV war as just. Because on the circumstance that it was NOT JUST then it was the worst war to ever be waged.

[Earogema]

The only thing that is questionable on your list is the NoV affair. I've told Slayer myself that I didn't believe attacking them for what they do in RL really applied to the game. I believe they tried to amend that by fighting for KM to get off other people's ZI lists. Which alienated them from a few alliances itself. Including RoK who wanted to help GOD keep KM on their ZI list. I know helping one guy cannot make up for destroying a whole alliance but hey it was the best they could do at the time.

KM wasn't on GOD's list for being a nazi anyway though.