In the GATO

[animea90]

I'd have to agree with the sentiment that both sides of the arguments have well though-out points, and that quick one-liners aren't going to encompass either side. It's a complicated issue, from the issue of the CB to the length of the Viceroyship. And that's why, for the most part, OWF threads aren't an effective way to affect the issue one way or the other.

Then where exactly is the right place to sort out the issue? private channels? That has done nothing to further the issue over the last 6 months

[Shamrock Rovers]

I hate to be Negative Nancy but I'm pretty sure that's lower than your strength YEARS ago and your nation count is also much much lower.

I'll give you this; you took longer to break than the Legion by at least two wars.

We grow in cycles, beat down sanction, rinse and repeat. Our growth has always been better than most alliances, look at how fast we were sanctioned after the last time we were beat down. Within a mere few months of our terms ending we were back up there.

At the current rate, we will still be under the terms by the time we are sanctioned

As for member count, in the state of CN it is hardly surprising to see an alliance drop in numbers. We are still getting recruits daily but the majority of people quitting CN out of pure boredom it is expected to see alliances stay low on membership count.

GATO will ALWAYS be WAE....

I hate those brown turds.

We love you too.

So you judge your alliances worth based on how many pixels you have? Are things like free speech irrelevant to the democratic society of GATO? I have heard nobody rebut the earlier claim from an ex-GATO member that the average members of GATO were/are not allowed to post threads on the forums without NPO permission.

I find it sad that GATO has seemed to have abandoned the democratic principles it was founded on.

Free speech is merely pixels too. We still have our democratic society in place. Infact it was our members who approved of the Viceroy and before you say it, yes we had a choice. We are currently voting on our charter within the walls of Camp GATO, and this process is without outside intervention. GATO members are allowed to freely post on the forums as far as the NPO are concerned. We never spoke out much in CN politics and even in the good ole days when GOONS and lolzcar would try and call us out, we would remain silent.

Just because you are looking through a window at something, it dose not mean that you are getting the full picture.

[animea90]

We grow in cycles, beat down sanction, rinse and repeat. Our growth has always been better than most alliances, look at how fast we were sanctioned after the last time we were beat down. Within a mere few months of our terms ending we were back up there.

At the current rate, we will still be under the terms by the time we are sanctioned

As for member count, in the state of CN it is hardly surprising to see an alliance drop in numbers. We are still getting recruits daily but the majority of people quitting CN out of pure boredom it is expected to see alliances stay low on membership count.

We love you too.

Free speech is merely pixels too. We still have our democratic society in place. Infact it was our members who approved of the Viceroy and before you say it, yes we had a choice. We are currently voting on our charter within the walls of Camp GATO, and this process is without outside intervention. GATO members are allowed to freely post on the forums as far as the NPO are concerned. We never spoke out much in CN politics and even in the good ole days when GOONS and lolzcar would try and call us out, we would remain silent.

Just because you are looking through a window at something, it dose not mean that you are getting the full picture.

1. So Ragashindo was lying when he said

"in GATO's case the lack of free speech may have something to do with it. When I left GATO a few months ago its members were not allowed to start topics without high ranking government approval. There are a handful of GATO member who fit that description and could authorize a topic's posting, but they still have to answer to their NPO overlords.

2. "free speech is merely pixels too"

No, free speech is the exchange of IDEAS, not pixels. While we may type of these ideas on the forum, the ideas themselves are not composed of pixels. Infrastructure really is nothing more than bits of computer coding.

3. "we had a choice"

By choice do you mean there was an option other than Fan style eternal ZI? Did NPO offer a white peace without a viceroy, but GATO felt it was in there best interest to have NPO rulers?

Edit: By that logic, slaves have a choice. So did the Indians when they were force marched off their land in the Trail of Tears. They could have easily chosen to be killed.

Edited April 12, 2009 by animea90

[Ms Neonangel]

May I just say that the majority of GATO members posting in this thread are in fact "regular" members. The only truly high official who has posted is MTT.

Return to your bickering...

[Shamrock Rovers]

1. So Ragashindo was lying when he said

"in GATO's case the lack of free speech may have something to do with it. When I left GATO a few months ago its members were not allowed to start topics without high ranking government approval. There are a handful of GATO member who fit that description and could authorize a topic's posting, but they still have to answer to their NPO overlords.

Times have changed.

If back before any of this war happened, a member posted a topic flaming GOONS or any other alliance they would have been punished. This is a browser game, people have no reason not to remain civil. The terms are merely like any other treaty, you must remain civil to the other party or you will find the alliance leaders in a spot of trouble with their counter parts. I believe this also answers Number 2, we can have our freedom of speech quite similar to that in Americas. We can propose changes, crique how things are done but it gets a little restricted when we try and over throw those inpower. I hope you get the picture here.

3. "we had a choice"

By choice do you mean there was an option other than Fan style eternal ZI? Did NPO offer a white peace without a viceroy, but GATO felt it was in there best interest to have NPO rulers?

Edit: By that logic, slaves have a choice. So did the Indians when they were force marched off their land in the Trail of Tears. They could have easily chosen to be killed.

Yes we could have. We could have chosen to fight for longer, we could have chosen to disband, we could have chosen to quit or we could have chosen other paths. But as is becoming evident, we didnt.

This is my last post debating with you. I am all for GATO's freedom, I just disagree with the way it is trying to be done. GATOans have been working towards freedom, we know what we have to do and we will strive to achieve it.

[Kindom of Goon]

Taking a viceroy on at all is bad enough, but taking one in indefinately? Why on earth would anyone agree to that is beyond me.

As for needing help to rebuild/reform, if it takes you close to a year to do it then you're probably not doing a very good job.

[Lord Rune]

We in GATO are working towards an end to the viceroy. That will happen as a result of the work over the past months that we put into our alliance.

To those of you who think that public opinion will make a difference, I say thank you for your support.

To those of you who wish to use us a soap-box from which you can bash the NPO, I say, get off us and find another soapbox.(You know who you are)

[Chickenzilla]

I hope GATO is freed soon. :/

[MTTezla]

Then where exactly is the right place to sort out the issue? private channels? That has done nothing to further the issue over the last 6 months

Nothing that you can see. Inside the alliance, we've seen the progress has been made both towards functional independence and towards a stronger, more influential alliance.

As for needing help to rebuild/reform, if it takes you close to a year to do it then you're probably not doing a very good job.

Most alliances would be quite happy to be nearing the Sanction Race after about sixth months. Considering we started nearly from scratch after the war, I'm quite happy with our growth.

[HeinousOne]

Nothing that you can see. Inside the alliance, we've seen the progress has been made both towards functional independence and towards a stronger, more influential alliance.

Most alliances would be quite happy to be nearing the Sanction Race after about sixth months. Considering we started nearly from scratch after the war, I'm quite happy with our growth.

With whom do you see your alliance being more influential with in the future? Considering changes to the Brown sphere, this question has become a bit more relevant then when the Occupation started.

[Kindom of Goon]

Most alliances would be quite happy to be nearing the Sanction Race after about sixth months. Considering we started nearly from scratch after the war, I'm quite happy with our growth.

Firstly its been closer to 10 months. Secondly, my point and the reason some have outlined for needing a viceroy had nothing to do with statistical growth.

The reasons mentioned for keeping the viceroy were to help with reforms internally and getting GATO back on their feet. I cannot see a reason why it would take anywhere near 10 months, and the fact that it has (with no end in sight unless I'm mistaken) is not exactly something to brag about. Which leads to my point that they're either doing a pretty poor job or there are other motives.

[MTTezla]

Firstly its been closer to 10 months. Secondly, my point and the reason some have outlined for needing a viceroy had nothing to do with statistical growth.

The reasons mentioned for keeping the viceroy were to help with reforms internally and getting GATO back on their feet. I cannot see a reason why it would take anywhere near 10 months, and the fact that it has (with no end in sight unless I'm mistaken) is not exactly something to brag about. Which leads to my point that they're either doing a pretty poor job or there are other motives.

We split the difference. It's been about eight months. Either way, we can be proud of the growth of the alliance even while we work towards independence. I wouldn't insult a member of another alliance for being proud of their alliance's growth even if they were having foreign affairs troubles.

With whom do you see your alliance being more influential with in the future? Considering changes to the Brown sphere, this question has become a bit more relevant then when the Occupation started.

Good question - I see that I've mispoken. I don't mean to say that we'll be more influential with any particular alliance; more that we'll be an alliance with the size to be respected in foreign affairs. Though we of course look forward to working with all of the Brown Team alliances, new and old.

Edited April 12, 2009 by MTTezla

[Gurney Halleck]

Have the leaders in GATO appealed to the NPO to have the viceroyalty terms end?

[Kindom of Goon]

We split the difference. It's been about eight months. Either way, we can be proud of the growth of the alliance even while we work towards independence. I wouldn't insult a member of another alliance for being proud of their alliance's growth even if they were having foreign affairs troubles.

I suggest you go back and read what I've said, I've insulted no one nor have I claimed you should not be proud of your growth, I said it was irrelevant to my point.

I have questioned the suggested benifits of having a Viceroy around.

[Mogar]

Have the leaders in GATO appealed to the NPO to have the viceroyalty terms end?

You wont get an answer to this from anyone in GATO I dont think, but yes, I'd assume they have multiple times.

[Greg23]

Took us longer to grow cause after the war majority of GATO didnt care enough to do anything anymore, everyone was tired and bored. Took us awhile to just get back on our feet to become reinterested into the game

[MTTezla]

Have the leaders in GATO appealed to the NPO to have the viceroyalty terms end?

The NPO and GATO officials have worked together to make sure that the Viceroyship can be concluded in the future. Obviously, efforts have been made on both sides.

[animea90]

The NPO and GATO officials have worked together to make sure that the Viceroyship can be concluded in the future. Obviously, efforts have been made on both sides.

You say "on both sides". What incentive does NPO have to end the viceroyship? If GATO is amiable enough to it and you don't want foreign entities getting involved, why would NPO give up control over GATO?

From what I have known of the NPO, they are a pretty smart bunch and don't do things without a reason.

[Ragashingo]

The NPO and GATO officials have worked together to make sure that the Viceroyship can be concluded in the future. Obviously, efforts have been made on both sides.

Yes, obviously...

[valkyrie9002]

Thats political speak for "We asked and they told us to shut up and get back to work".

[Mogar]

Thats political speak for "We asked and they told us to shut up and get back to work".

ding ding, we have a winrar.

[Cataduanes]

Thats political speak for "We asked and they told us to shut up and get back to work".

:lol: probably very true.

[Haflinger]

Many of GATO's allies took a stand for GATO and as such gained the respect of the CN community, making them an attractive treaty partner due to their honour. Notably, CSN/USN/IAA. Contrary to what you might believe GATO did not fight alone, but they did fight the most brutal parts of the war, and they are still being controlled by a foreign alliance. The fact that the injustice has gone on this long only amplifies it rather than diminishes it.

I'd just like to take this moment to point out that USN's stand wasn't for GATO, it was for CSN.

CSN and IAA honoured their treaties with GATO. USN honoured its treaty with CSN.

Also, IAA no longer exists, so claims about them being an attractive treaty partner seem somewhat moot.

I do love USN though. So we'll meet at least halfway.

You say "on both sides". What incentive does NPO have to end the viceroyship? If GATO is amiable enough to it and you don't want foreign entities getting involved, why would NPO give up control over GATO?

Contrary to popular belief, running a viceroy is actually quite a lot of work for relatively little reward. Generally speaking, it's a lot more effective to focus one's efforts on developing one's own alliance, and NPO knows this. There has to be some overriding reason to make one commit the resources in terms of government officials to another alliance. When said overriding reasons are removed, the viceregency tends to go as well.

GATO was an alliance with a lot of difficulties when it lost the war to One Vision. It took Legion a while to come out from the viceroyalty, and they've never been in the running for WAE.

[Alterego]

If you think the entire anti-hegemony argument is "WAKE UP SHEEPLE" you're not looking very hard at the posts of those actually arguing against it and as a result are ironically supporting this argument that you're claiming is false: namely that supporters of the hegemony don't really think too hard about what they're saying.

You assume I think like you do, I dont because I am not you. I am perfectly happy, does this make me a sheep? No it make me different to you. It means I am thinking for myself, you are not thinking for me. Again you seem to think if I dont think your way I havent read the posts properly or there is something wrong with me. There is not, I am happy as things are, you might not like it, but thats life.

[Electron Sponge]

Contrary to popular belief, running a viceroy is actually quite a lot of work for relatively little reward.

I think you have this backward. It's not much work and the reward you get is the complete and total subjugation of another alliance to your own interests and policies.

It took Legion a while to come out from the viceroyalty, and they've never been in the running for WAE.

You really don't know a lot about Legion do you?