Captain Enema Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 We didn't bar Triyun. He never waited for his vote. That's slightly different. My neck is on the block. I personally am not afraid of that rule and if he follows the rules of the community, keeps in line with the structures being generated to sustain the global balance and prevent someone from running amok, neither should he. You haven't had your vote yet? Jesus... lazy gm staff is lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggressivenutmeg Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 We could always combine the best elements of CNRP1 (wargaming) with CNRP2 (roleplaying). I honestly dont see why it is an either-or question. What exactly do you think wars are like in CNRP1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 The vote process is ridiculous and needs to go. I think a referendum is called for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) I'm not putting myself up for a vote for whether someone can participate in RP because its wrong. Further I'm not apologizing to Mogar for genuinely not caring about him because its wrong. It is additionally wrong (this mind you after the GMs of this RP told me I didn't need a vote, and then went back on it) to after spending the past half year of CN RP crying foul and IC/OOC crossing for Mogar to query and say that I have to be judged with a totally new IC nation based solely on his narrative for CN RP. I have not interest in an RP that bases things like this, the only reason Mogar can say here is no IC hegemony, is because he's clearly saying they should be excluded, this despite the fact that the rules of CN RP 2 clearly state a player gets a fresh slate when they reroll with new chars, which I did. Mogar: if you want to actually prove you want to RP and not destroy everyone else's storylines [02:30am] Mogar: join #cnrp2 and use your words to say so [02:31am] Mogar: i will do everything in my power to get you voted in [02:31am] Mogar: prove you can not be a !@#$%* person to all the people you have stomped for the past 3 years [02:31am] Mogar: 5 actually [02:32am] Triyun: no [02:32am] Triyun: I’m not begging [02:32am] Triyun: either people can join or not [02:32am] Mogar: why cant you just say [02:32am] Mogar: hey i have !@#$ted up your stories [02:32am] Mogar: sorry [02:33am] Mogar: it isnt that complicated to admit you have not be a very collaborative RPer Again requiring solely one narrative for RP. In fact most of the big RPs I've done have been RPed collaborative. But I'm required to outright lie to a very bias narrative to get a chance to participate. That makes sense. [02:33am] Triyun: No crossing characters/nations. What happens to your in Barfistan, stays in Barfistan. If you reroll your nation and go right back to your old tricks, you deserve to get smashed. You need to remember that a new nation is a fresh slate, so don't roll a new nation to go pick fights with the enemies of your old nation. [02:33am] Triyun: Either [02:33am] Triyun: I’m treated with a new slate [02:33am] Triyun: or I’m not [02:33am] Mogar: it isnt about that though [02:33am] Triyun: just like any other player [02:33am] Mogar: we put rota into a new game [02:33am] Mogar: rota's still rota [02:33am] Mogar: we put uber into a new game [02:33am] Mogar: he's still uber [02:34am] Triyun: No [02:34am] Triyun: either I get a fresh slate [02:34am] Triyun: or I don’t [02:34am] Triyun: period [02:34am] Mogar: what evidence is there that your IC behavior is going to change [02:34am] Triyun: New nation [02:34am] Triyun: either that’s acceptable or not [02:34am] Mogar: what does that change about the player [02:34am] Mogar: behind the nation [02:34am] Mogar: rota has had dozens of nations [02:34am] Mogar: and still behaves exactly the same no matter what nation Which was the exact criticism Mogar was giving that he wasn't being given a chance in CN RP 1, yet he freely uses it in CN RP 2, this is hypocrisy at its height. The thing you have to admit, is that never once was someone explicitly barred from playing CN RP in the past, and there were explicit rules and protections in place to prevent people including me from rolling someone (like Mogar) cause they were an annoying player. Evidently here no such thing exists, and its based on OOC cliques and dislikes or likes OOC of player. So in fact, there is no fresh start possible. [02:35am] Triyun: you’ve said it was wrong to roll you cause of the player [02:35am] Mogar: you are power hungry and have always built an empire Personal insult 1. How's occupying Taiwan, Korea, and Singapore with a homogenous exclusionary culture group going bro. [02:35am] Triyun: now you want to kick someone out fo the player [02:35am] Mogar: that's been your M.O since you started RPing I'm pretty sure my objective was to RP a Maoist China way back in 2007. The only person I have every I think actively gotten mad enough to try and kick out is Kankou and that was 2 years ago. Either way my mission objectives by no means can be defined by anyone as playing to kick players out. [02:35am] Triyun: frankly I won’t prostrate myself [02:35am] Triyun: period [02:35am] Mogar: no im asking you [02:35am] Triyun: Either you treat everyone equally or you don’t [02:35am] Mogar: person to person [02:35am] Triyun: No [02:35am] Mogar: you dont treat everyone equally either [02:35am] Mogar: dont give me that bul!@#$ [02:35am] Triyun: Treat me the same as every player [02:35am] Triyun: OOC I do [02:35am] Mogar: no you dont [02:36am] Mogar: you treat me like !@#$ IC You've had three states I interacted with. 1) I was allied to 2) One I rolled 3) One I ignored. That's 2 out of 3 I didn't destroy. I've ignored Dillion's country completely I don't think he'd say I treat him like !@#$. [02:36am] Mogar: alw3ays [02:36am] Mogar: no matter what nation i am See nation #1. [02:36am] Mogar: i either get ignored or rolled [02:36am] Mogar: and guess what [02:36am] Triyun: who cares if you’re ignored [02:36am] Triyun: I only rolled you once [02:36am] Mogar: when you ignore me getting rolled by one of your other !@#$%* friends Vektor is his own player. Am I supposed to surrender my internal political decision making to you now, or I'm responsible for all this !@#$ you accuse me of. I think you're being a little narcissistic. [02:36am] Mogar: it matters [02:36am] Mogar: there's 2 dozen nations you have done nothing but crush their stories because you could Beyond the lack of logical flow between letting Vektor roll you, and crushing 2 dozen nations because I could I don't think there's any evidence to say that. The most nations you could say I killed for a questionable reason is Ireland, to which I have apologized on how I went about it. Now counting them out, I may forget a few minor ones. 2010: 1) Japanse Taiwan: Chinese Unification, liberating Taiwan from Japanese fascists 2) Keshav: Chinese Unification 3) Girltopia: Half the men in Burma were being killed 4) Keshav II: Chinese Unification 5) Some other dude: Chinese Unification 6) German Civil War: Treaty Obligations 7) Triple play: I think some dude Isoceles fired chemical weapons over me I attacked him, KK I recall sent help to him, and then I think Fizzydog sent help to him 8) Some nuclear thing vs. Yawoo in Europe, all countries I think remained 2011: 1) Rota a bunch of times starting with some terrorist attacks on Zoot 2) Cochin War: Treaty obligations from Lavo 3) Pravus's civil war: again no territory gain 4) Korea: Treaty obligations from Cent 5) Invasion of Japan: Provocations from Japan 6) Invasion of Mongolia: Military activity on the border, heavy provocations 7) Mogatopia: Penguin Rights.... also slavery 8) Timmystan: Defense of allies against rogue nuclear actors 2012: 1) Nordland (Yes I'm a Nord): Liberating Asia parts 2) Papua Disputed Territory War: Kankou rerolled to Europe, Cent and Vektor hit her there, then tried to reroll under the 2 week rule in a place I had a protectorate or something, not technically a rolling 3) Croatia: Protecting Africa from colonialism 4) Ishabad's troll states 5) Canada: Supporting Mara and Melech as allies 6) Invasion of Horo: Saving Melech's ass 7) Colombia War: Preplanned Defensive War with Shammy 8) Invasion of Texas: Response to provocations I can't really think of others... 2013: 1) Aeon War- Treaty obligations to Cent 2) South American War- Revolutionary Disputes 3) Wars of the Uruguay Nuclear Crisis 2014: 1) Ireland So in reality not only have the last two years seen a huge downtick in the number, aside from the wars of reunification, most wars are in defense of allies. Hardly a bad reason to go to war. [02:36am] Triyun: stop insulting people [02:37am] Triyun: we’re done Also yes, you need to learn how to get your points across without being rude and demonizing. Its almost as if you see the wold as one where you're its Jesus and we're all heathen devils. Edited June 21, 2014 by Triyun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggressivenutmeg Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) You forgot the time you helped Shammy roll me (edit: and Markus) in Australia. Maybe that was pre-2010 though. No, definitely 2011. Edited June 21, 2014 by Aggressivenutmeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserMelech Mikhail Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I will be communicating points through memes now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'm not putting myself up for a vote for whether someone can participate in RP because its wrong. Further I'm not apologizing to Mogar for genuinely not caring about him because its wrong. It is additionally wrong (this mind you after the GMs of this RP told me I didn't need a vote, and then went back on it) to after spending the past half year of CN RP crying foul and IC/OOC crossing for Mogar to query and say that I have to be judged with a totally new IC nation based solely on his narrative for CN RP. I have not interest in an RP that bases things like this, the only reason Mogar can say here is no IC hegemony, is because he's clearly saying they should be excluded, this despite the fact that the rules of CN RP 2 clearly state a player gets a fresh slate when they reroll with new chars, which I did. [wahhh y r u so mean to me] the fact you can list THAT many wars in which you have destroyed people's nations, you don't think that's not incredibly destructive to other people's work? you can rationalize the wars all you'd like and personally attack me for "insulting you", but you don't seem to mind insulting me constantly on IRC, it goes both ways. Your behavior in the majority of the people in CNRP2's view, is destructive towards other people, I'm willing to give you a chance to prove otherwise. I do not believe it is asking much for you to clearly state your intentions, the alleged protections you stated were only put into place after you were almost voted off of the map due to this same behavior that created the schism in the first place. Oh yeah and then you just ignored them after a few months anyway. You want to RP with us? that's great, you want to simply come in and create another global hegemony? no thanks. I don't think it is that complicated to ask someone who has bullied you and all your friends for the past 5 years if he is going to change his behavior before inviting him to a party you're throwing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 You forgot the time you bullied me out of Britain through repeated ICly actions based on the weakest reasons possible and OOC threats. The genocide of the ivory coast againt fizzydog The provocations from japan was a false flag operation you initiated to roll Elrich. Those are off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserMelech Mikhail Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 the fact you can list THAT many wars in which you have destroyed people's nations, you don't think that's not incredibly destructive to other people's work? you can rationalize the wars all you'd like and personally attack me for "insulting you", but you don't seem to mind insulting me constantly on IRC, it goes both ways. Your behavior in the majority of the people in CNRP2's view, is destructive towards other people, I'm willing to give you a chance to prove otherwise. I do not believe it is asking much for you to clearly state your intentions, the alleged protections you stated were only put into place after you were almost voted off of the map due to this same behavior that created the schism in the first place. Oh yeah and then you just ignored them after a few months anyway. You want to RP with us? that's great, you want to simply come in and create another global hegemony? no thanks. I don't think it is that complicated to ask someone who has bullied you and all your friends for the past 5 years if he is going to change his behavior before inviting him to a party you're throwing. More meme points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 You forgot the time you helped Shammy roll me (edit: and Markus) in Australia. Maybe that was pre-2010 though. No, definitely 2011. Ok assisting an ally again. But why's assisting allies bad? It seems to me like some of the arguments here are that I should aid people I'm not allies to, but leave my allies high and dry who I actually did make a promise to defend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Ok assisting an ally again. But why's assisting allies bad? It seems to me like some of the arguments here are that I should aid people I'm not allies to, but leave my allies high and dry who I actually did make a promise to defend. the argument is nobody should have to have their months and months of writing destroyed because your clique is bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kingswell Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 the argument is nobody should have to have their months and months of writing destroyed because your clique is bored. A question then. How would you avoid someone's writing being destroyed if the attacker was an under 50k nation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) You forgot the time you bullied me out of Britain through repeated ICly actions based on the weakest reasons possible and OOC threats. The genocide of the ivory coast againt fizzydog The provocations from japan was a false flag operation you initiated to roll Elrich. Those are off the top of my head. 1) I don't believe I did anything to you in Britain except for kick your prince in the nuts and shoot a heroin bomb at you. Hardly forcing you out of a country by any stretch. 2) They started that war and were using civilians as combatents. Thats not genocide, don't cheapen genocide by that. Genocide is he deliberate extermination of an ethnic group. Shooting mobs of attacking people, even if they are lightly armed if they are aggressors attacking you simply is not genocide, its questionably a war crime under international law, but its comparing a fender bender to vehicular homicide. 3) In point of fact the false flag happened after Elrich brought us to the brink of war, then tried to back down. I had agreed to keep Japan independent prior to that, and faithfully stuck to it even threatening war against my then ally Kankou to preserve its independence, and I myself did not take Japan as a territorial position after that for at least something like a year and a half. Kevin Kingswell, on 21 Jun 2014 - 11:18 AM, said: A question then. How would you avoid someone's writing being destroyed if the attacker was an under 50k nation? Well that's a good question, on top of that most people who've gotten hit by me where I'm not defending an allied state, aside from the wars of Chinese reunificaion did not have months of writing with that nation. Edited June 21, 2014 by Triyun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) A question then. How would you avoid someone's writing being destroyed if the attacker was an under 50k nation? In CNRP2? I'd never attack them anywhere near to the extent as Vektor did to me, and my IC nation would attack anyone who did for intentional mass murder of civilians. there'd be a nation left at the end of it. Edited June 21, 2014 by Mogar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I think he was referring to criticisms of me, not of Vektor. As a note I'm not Vektor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 From the moment this rp started Triyun and I have been opposed to the no under 50k+ principle, after that the entire principle of turning it into a popularity contest. Your biggest fear seems to be that we would just establish another hegemony but my question is this. How would we? You already put the caps in place that would effectively neuter our nations strength-wise to a level that even with our best tactics we still could not take on too much. Not even in CNRP was a hegemony ever established via just myself and Triyun. It has always been in cooperation with other actors. If you fear we would just end up doing a hegemony again the fact that a lot of people in CNRP2 seem to be paranoid of us already means we couldn't get the kind of coalition going we'd need. Both Triyun's and Sarah's states, and for that matter the state I intentionally planned on doing, have no relation to our CNRP entities at all and if we turned out antagonistic you could deal with them pretty easily without having to resort to OOC measures such as a kick. On the other hand however, we were told by GM's of CNRP2 that voting in was no longer a rule. We were asked repeatedly by individuals to join. We were told that ic disputes would be solved by ic means rather than kicks. The moment one of us actually acts on those promises and creates a nation with the best of intentions there is a full 180 on the first of those statements. Why should we even bother when there is a real chance that the moment we do even a single act someone doesn't like an ooc vote gets launched. At least in a war there's the possibility of defending or rp'ing an occupied state and you can never be truly banned from the RP. So no, as long as there is the possibility of using these ooc tools and there is a clear lobby against people like Triyun([01:58] <+Hereno> let's vote out triyun and see if voodoo & sarah stay) I don't see why we should even bother because no matter what we say it won't work. the fact you can list THAT many wars in which you have destroyed people's nations, you don't think that's not incredibly destructive to other people's work? you can rationalize the wars all you'd like and personally attack me for "insulting you", but you don't seem to mind insulting me constantly on IRC, it goes both ways. Your behavior in the majority of the people in CNRP2's view, is destructive towards other people, I'm willing to give you a chance to prove otherwise. I do not believe it is asking much for you to clearly state your intentions, the alleged protections you stated were only put into place after you were almost voted off of the map due to this same behavior that created the schism in the first place. Oh yeah and then you just ignored them after a few months anyway. You want to RP with us? that's great, you want to simply come in and create another global hegemony? no thanks. I don't think it is that complicated to ask someone who has bullied you and all your friends for the past 5 years if he is going to change his behavior before inviting him to a party you're throwing Sure 2010-2012 were pretty bad but do keep in mind that none of those wars were just Triyun and/or me. And many included individuals currently in CNRP2. One of your founding members used to be a lot on the offensive side in those wars. 2013-2014 however not so much. Furthermore in the last two years only Ireland, Kankou and maybe Bio weren't the results of highly antagonistic actions or just outright declaring on a MDP+ partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kingswell Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) In CNRP2? I'd never attack them anywhere near to the extent as Vektor did to me, and my IC nation would attack anyone who did for intentional mass murder of civilians. there'd be a nation left at the end of it. That doesn't answer my question though. How would you, as an rp community, there we go some clarification, stop someone from destroying someone's work. Imagine two nations at 5k ns, one who writes nice and peaceful and the other who likes a bit of war and control. If the later attacks and invades the former how would you resolve it? Edited June 21, 2014 by Kevin Kingswell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 For what its worth, let them in and see how it goes. They are capped the same as me and lynneth and pongo and mona lisa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'm arguing for them to be allowed in as well, I am simply attempting to show that there are very very valid reasons to have concerns for their behaviors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo Nova Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'm arguing for them to be allowed in as well, I am simply attempting to show that there are very very valid reasons to have concerns for their behaviors. Please point to evidence in CNRP2 where their behavior should be of concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Please point to evidence in CNRP2 where their behavior should be of concern. as I said, you put rota into any game, he is still going to be rota, what has triyun done to show any sign of wanting to change from this: 2010: 1) Japanse Taiwan: Chinese Unification, liberating Taiwan from Japanese fascists 2) Keshav: Chinese Unification 3) Girltopia: Half the men in Burma were being killed 4) Keshav II: Chinese Unification 5) Some other dude: Chinese Unification 6) German Civil War: Treaty Obligations 7) Triple play: I think some dude Isoceles fired chemical weapons over me I attacked him, KK I recall sent help to him, and then I think Fizzydog sent help to him 8) Some nuclear thing vs. Yawoo in Europe, all countries I think remained 2011: 1) Rota a bunch of times starting with some terrorist attacks on Zoot 2) Cochin War: Treaty obligations from Lavo 3) Pravus's civil war: again no territory gain 4) Korea: Treaty obligations from Cent 5) Invasion of Japan: Provocations from Japan 6) Invasion of Mongolia: Military activity on the border, heavy provocations 7) Mogatopia: Penguin Rights.... also slavery 8) Timmystan: Defense of allies against rogue nuclear actors 2012: 1) Nordland (Yes I'm a Nord): Liberating Asia parts 2) Papua Disputed Territory War: Kankou rerolled to Europe, Cent and Vektor hit her there, then tried to reroll under the 2 week rule in a place I had a protectorate or something, not technically a rolling 3) Croatia: Protecting Africa from colonialism 4) Ishabad's troll states 5) Canada: Supporting Mara and Melech as allies 6) Invasion of Horo: Saving Melech's ass 7) Colombia War: Preplanned Defensive War with Shammy 8) Invasion of Texas: Response to provocations I can't really think of others... 2013: 1) Aeon War- Treaty obligations to Cent 2) South American War- Revolutionary Disputes 3) Wars of the Uruguay Nuclear Crisis 2014: 1) Ireland to collaborating in a world where the rules are intentionally set up to try to prevent the stranglehold of creativity that has been on the throat on CNRP1 for the past few years. Edited June 21, 2014 by Mogar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) The thing you have to admit, is that never once was someone explicitly barred from playing CN RP in the past, and there were explicit rules and protections in place to prevent people including me from rolling someone (like Mogar) cause they were an annoying player. Evidently here no such thing exists, and its based on OOC cliques and dislikes or likes OOC of player. So in fact, there is no fresh start possible. I was barred multiple times. You guys protected everything and no one would give me land. Also you rolled all 12 of my nations. Personal insult 1. How's occupying Taiwan, Korea, and Singapore with a homogenous exclusionary culture group going bro. That is Mogar's empire. It's different because. Vektor is his own player. Am I supposed to surrender my internal political decision making to you now, or I'm responsible for all this !@#$ you accuse me of. I think you're being a little narcissistic. Mogar? Narcissistic? Noooo! For what its worth, let them in and see how it goes. They are capped the same as me and lynneth and pongo and mona lisa. Yeah honestly, I'd rather trade you for even the old Triyun in a heart beat. I'm arguing for them to be allowed in as well, I am simply attempting to show that there are very very valid reasons to have concerns for their behaviors. You don't advocate someone joining a game by saying, "I want my friend to come play, and I want you guys decide if he can play. He is absolutely terrible though and ruined the game for us all before! I still want him to play with us though! Vote what you feel is right!" You yourself may vote yes, but you want the rest of the community to listen to your victimization and vote no. I am personally one of Triyun's worse and most repetitive "Victims" and I truly am advocating for him to play. Because I like him? No. Because I feel everyone should have a fair and equal chance. Edited June 21, 2014 by Rotavele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Rota give it a rest on accusing me of fabricating stuff. The entire reason i asked for crimea river to be retconned was because i couldnt think of a reason to maintain the RP's course as it would no longer have made sense as tywin was retconned. If anything I did us both a damn favour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 as I said, you put rota into any game, he is still going to be rota, what has triyun done to show any sign of wanting to change from this: to collaborating in a world where the rules are intentionally set up to try to prevent the stranglehold of creativity that has been on the throat on CNRP1 for the past few years. Not a great example, the Rota we kicked out a lot is not the Rota who came back last month. I was barred multiple times. You guys protected everything and no one would give me land. Also you rolled all 12 of my nations. To be fair that was only because there literally was no one who would give you land. If even a single person had given up a pixel of his own land there was surprisingly little we could have done about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Not a great example, the Rota we kicked out a lot is not the Rota who came back last month. Ok, we've found something we can all agree on at least. not quite related but one of the difference I think that exists. [12:22] <Mogar> if we are trying to write collaborative storylines, you should not punish other player's characters [12:22] <Mogar> you want their characters to stay alive so they can resist, fight, and interact with you [12:23] <Mogar> but that has not been the MO of CNRP1 [12:23] <Mogar> characters are the first thing you target [12:23] <Mogar> and thats not a good storyline as I have asked triyun in query today and in the OP, what exactly is the point of this RP game, are we here to write a storyline with other people, or are we here to win? Edited June 21, 2014 by Mogar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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