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Where do we go from here?


Bed Intruder
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I love CN and the idea of a game where I can build my nation in real time so it's somewhat realistic. I like the way the economy is set up. I like most things about the game. My simple question is, where do we go from here?

 

While I would love to say the game is constantly changing and is very rapid with alliances rising and falling, this just isn't the case. The game hasn't been dynamic for awhile now.

 

Personally, I consider Cuba a friend. We did a donation deal or two and I learned he was very respectful, easy to talk to, and work oriented. Nonetheless, he orchestrated the biggest and best move CN will ever see. I know it's becoming cliche hearing that but he really has. Back to my question though. DBDC has the planet of bob by the balls! While one could argue, "All you have to do is fight back!" that couldn't be any wronger. I absolutely love the fact that he and his crew of heavy-hitting warmongers have taken planet bob under total control. I just don't know what anyone is supposed to do anymore. If you attack them back, 2 more 'bigs' (as I like to call them) will help total your nation till you grovel and beg for peace. Even if you did some significant damage, your alliance's lower and mid tier would be destroyed by their vast amount of allies waiting and more than willing to fight for life, liberty, or just for fun. 

 

Basically, I don't know what I personally am supposed to do anymore in this game. I am blessed to be safe under WTF but with GOP being absolutely rolled a while back, there's no telling who's next. 

 

Cuba, if you happen to read this, Bravo. You did what no one else was able to. 

 

So yeah, how do you feel about CN as it stands today?

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Well it would be a bit stagnant and boring if you're in a neutral alliance as they, by definition, do not engage in the wider political meta-game.   

 

As far as DBDC, I have great respect for them and they are actually nice people and, by all accounts, gracious and respectable opponents.  However, to claim that they actually control the entire world is quite an overstatement.  Not a single one of their nations is below 150k NS, which means they do dominate, but only in the extreme upper tiers.  Their presence in those tiers has certainly changed the dynamics of the game and accorded them certain amount of influence in global affairs, but that being said it is by no means the case that they have "... the planet of bob by the balls!"  That is just a bit of hyperbolic rhetoric.

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A nuetral spinning propoganda?

 

(DBDC may have good allies, but there are alliances out there who have not signed treaties with them who are pretty decent themselves, and who would go down fighting no matter what they may face. You seriously over play DBDC's abilities [No offense Cuba. <3] along with downplaying the communities abilities.)

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Well it would be a bit stagnant and boring if you're in a neutral alliance as they, by definition, do not engage in the wider political meta-game.   

 

As far as DBDC, I have great respect for them and they are actually nice people and, by all accounts, gracious and respectable opponents.  However, to claim that they actually control the entire world is quite an overstatement.  Not a single one of their nations is below 150k NS, which means they do dominate, but only in the extreme upper tiers.  Their presence in those tiers has certainly changed the dynamics of the game and accorded them certain amount of influence in global affairs, but that being said it is by no means the case that they have "... the planet of bob by the balls!"  That is just a bit of hyperbolic rhetoric.

It is by no means a hyperbole. The extreme upper tier controls the game. If you can spell out a scenario where that isn't the case in the big picture, feel free to prove me wrong.

Simple answer for your question: down.

Couldn't agree more. 

A nuetral spinning propoganda?

 

(DBDC may have good allies, but there are alliances out there who have not signed treaties with them who are pretty decent themselves, and who would go down fighting no matter what they may face. You seriously over play DBDC's abilities [No offense Cuba. <3] along with downplaying the communities abilities.)

neutral* propaganda* if you're going to insult me, at least do it correctly. As for your post, I agree completely with the first part but you don't realize the grip they have on planet bob. I have seized up their abilities a fair amount, not an overwhelming amount. Lastly, I am by no means downplaying the communities abilities, I'm simply downplaying their willingness to engage in a war which will prove to be nothing less than catastrophic to a whole new level.

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OP, did you realise that by posting this, you've just handed Tywin yet another opportunity to post more irrelevant drivel about DBDC here?  :psyduck:

I didn't. Let him post his heart away, no one takes him serious anyways. This post wasn't irrelevant, was it? 

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DBDC isn't doing anything that GOONS wasn't doing 8 years ago.  They are neither innovative nor daring, bold, or original.  They're raiders, welcome to 2006.   

 

They do not have politics by the balls because they cannot touch 99.999% of the nations in 99% of alliances, and their antics are a running casus belli which when eventually acted upon will require their lower-tier allies to take massive losses should they opt to join DBDC in their aggression by countering the offended parties.

 

Continued concentration of high-tier nations inside DBDC and in its realm of allies creates increasing stagnation because it puts all the people who can attack each other in one room.

 

That you think that an alliance of raiders who go around attacking nations willy-nilly for giggles is respectful indicates that you wouldn't know respect if I put it on the end of a nuke directed at your nation to foul up a donation deal in retribution for the CB that it is.

Edited by Schattenmann
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It is by no means a hyperbole. The extreme upper tier controls the game. If you can spell out a scenario where that isn't the case in the big picture, feel free to prove me wrong.

 

That is simply not true.  The extreme upper tier does play a significant role in the game itself, largely through their economic strength as they can't actually engage directly with anyone outside of the extreme upper tier, but they have a much more limited role in the political meta-game; their role shouldn't be overplayed.  In actual fact, the middle tier has the most influence on both the game itself and the political meta-game.  Most nations fall somewhere in the middle tier (20-100k NS), so it has sheer numbers on its side.  Most tech buyers are middle tier nations, most alliance leaders are middle tier, and the vast majority of all global wars takes place in the middle tier.  The middle tier is in many ways the economic and political backbone of CN.

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That is simply not true.  The extreme upper tier does play a significant role in the game itself, largely through their economic strength as they can't actually engage directly with anyone outside of the extreme upper tier, but they have a much more limited role in the political meta-game; their role shouldn't be overplayed.  In actual fact, the middle tier has the most influence on both the game itself and the political meta-game.  Most nations fall somewhere in the middle tier (20-100k NS), so it has sheer numbers on its side.  Most tech buyers are middle tier nations, most alliance leaders are middle tier, and the vast majority of all global wars takes place in the middle tier.  The middle tier is in many ways the economic and political backbone of CN.

Exactly. 

As dubious as Unknown Smurf is, his phrase "God tier myth" is exactly right.  This very mentality everyone is stuck in right now is a mind game that proliferated when Doom House had the upper tier on lockdown.  "Upper tier wins" meant that Doom House would always win because Umbrella was in DH, and DH and their allies pushed that propaganda until everyone bought it, now DBDC are heirs to the paradigm, but the paradigm doesn't match reality (they never do).
At present, shortsighted governments who are taken with the idea that they must have DBDC on their side to win a war are happy to sign treaties, while others sign to keep DBDC off their back.  They only have as much power as some confused AAs give them, and those AAs stand to lose bigtime if they go to war in defense of DBDC, while DBDC can do very little to help any alliance.

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It is by no means a hyperbole. The extreme upper tier controls the game. If you can spell out a scenario where that isn't the case in the big picture, feel free to prove me wrong.

 

 

Scenario:  Every other nation stays below 100,000NS and the fattehs are irrelevant if they are too high of NS to effect anyone else.  Did I do it right?  That's a scenario, right?

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Exactly. 

As dubious as Unknown Smurf is, his phrase "God tier myth" is exactly right.  This very mentality everyone is stuck in right now is a mind game that proliferated when Doom House had the upper tier on lockdown.  "Upper tier wins" meant that Doom House would always win because Umbrella was in DH, and DH and their allies pushed that propaganda until everyone bought it, now DBDC are heirs to the paradigm, but the paradigm doesn't match reality (they never do).
At present, shortsighted governments who are taken with the idea that they must have DBDC on their side to win a war are happy to sign treaties, while others sign to keep DBDC off their back.  They only have as much power as some confused AAs give them, and those AAs stand to lose bigtime if they go to war in defense of DBDC, while DBDC can do very little to help any alliance.

 

As was said on a famous HBO show:

 

Power is a curious thing...Three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man. Between them stands a common sellsword. Each great man bids the sellsword kill the other two. Who lives, who dies? Power resides where men believe it resides; it's a trick, a shadow on the wall, and a very small man can cast a very large shadow.
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Scenario:  Every other nation stays below 100,000NS and the fattehs are irrelevant if they are too high of NS to effect anyone else.  Did I do it right?  That's a scenario, right?

Yes, that is a scenario. Unfortunately that doesn't prove me wrong because they'd still be able to attack the top 250 nations not including each other.

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Yes, that is a scenario. Unfortunately that doesn't prove me wrong because they'd still be able to attack the top 250 nations not including each other.

 

So out of 10,783 nations, they can attack about 250; yup, that obviously makes them the most important and powerful.

Edited by HM Solomon I
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DBDC isn't doing anything that GOONS wasn't doing 8 years ago.  They are neither innovative nor daring, bold, or original.  They're raiders, welcome to 2006.   

 

They do not have politics by the balls because they cannot touch 99.999% of the nations in 99% of alliances, and their antics are a running casus belli which when eventually acted upon will require their lower-tier allies to take massive losses should they opt to join DBDC in their aggression by countering the offended parties.

 

Continued concentration of high-tier nations inside DBDC and in its realm of allies creates increasing stagnation because it puts all the people who can attack each other in one room.

 

That you think that an alliance of raiders who go around attacking nations willy-nilly for giggles is respectful indicates that you wouldn't know respect if I put it on the end of a nuke directed at your nation to foul up a donation deal in retribution for the CB that it is.

They are innovating how war is played out. They have made it incredibly easy to take out the largest nations of any alliance. Nuke me, you'll learn to respect just as I have ;)

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So out of 10,783 nations, they can attack about 250; yup, that obviously makes them the most important and powerful.

That makes them able to bully around the largest nations in the game. Oh wait, they ARE the largest nations in the game.

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I would argue there is effectively now two Cyber Nations in this realm: The one played by 10,532 people (CN1) and another one played by 250 others (CN2).  Sure there's a bit of overlap, where say TOP has 3 nations in the top 250 and are thus vulnerable to attack by DBDC, but the bulk of TOP is below that range and has to contend the run-of-the-mill politics of CN1 with everyone else.

 

I don't see the politics of CN2 as being tenable long term, so either members of DBDC will need to lobby Admin for more rules changes or be content to sit on their arse, picking off the occasional stray in CN2 and living vicariously through others.  Given that so many of them joined DBDC because they were bored with their present circumstances, I doubt we'll see many of them around in a year, but they might surprise me.  Cuba appears pretty much to be on track to reach a million NS and no one can stop him at this point short of himself or Admin.

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I would argue there is effectively now two Cyber Nations in this realm: The one played by 10,532 people (CN1) and another one played by 250 others (CN2).  Sure there's a bit of overlap, where say TOP has 3 nations in the top 250 and are thus vulnerable to attack by DBDC, but the bulk of TOP is below that range and has to contend the run-of-the-mill politics of CN1 with everyone else.

 

I don't see the politics of CN2 as being tenable long term, so either members of DBDC will need to lobby Admin for more rules changes or be content to sit on their arse, picking off the occasional stray in CN2 and living vicariously through others.  Given that so many of them joined DBDC because they were bored with their present circumstances, I doubt we'll see many of them around in a year, but they might surprise me.  Cuba appears pretty much to be on track to reach a million NS and no one can stop him at this point short of himself or Admin.

That's actually the most logical way to look at the game imo. The only problem with Cuba making it to 1 million NS would be everyone eventually having no land and not buying any back so they aren't at risk of getting raided again.

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That's actually the most logical way to look at the game imo. The only problem with Cuba making it to 1 million NS would be everyone eventually having no land and not buying any back so they aren't at risk of getting raided again.

You'll always have neutrals and neutral alliances and so long as they nation build and aren't touched, CN1 will have a buffer.  But really, if we've gotten to the point that a significant number of people are avoiding being part of CN2 because they'd rather play politics in CN1, then what does that say about the state of the game?

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You'll always have neutrals and neutral alliances and so long as they nation build and aren't touched, CN1 will have a buffer.  But really, if we've gotten to the point that a significant number of people are avoiding being part of CN2 because they'd rather play politics in CN1, then what does that say about the state of the game?

That something needs to be changed to keep the game dynamic which was my point all along. Although you made a way better and different point than I, we're both ending with the same conclusion.

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The size of the nations are the issue, it's the size of the warchests.  If there was something, anything, that limited warchests then it would be feasible for a large enough coalition to pull those "God Tier" nations down one by one and wipe them out.  It would take immense discipline, but it could be done.

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Exactly. 

As dubious as Unknown Smurf is, his phrase "God tier myth" is exactly right.  This very mentality everyone is stuck in right now is a mind game that proliferated when Doom House had the upper tier on lockdown.  "Upper tier wins" meant that Doom House would always win because Umbrella was in DH, and DH and their allies pushed that propaganda until everyone bought it, now DBDC are heirs to the paradigm, but the paradigm doesn't match reality (they never do).
At present, shortsighted governments who are taken with the idea that they must have DBDC on their side to win a war are happy to sign treaties, while others sign to keep DBDC off their back.  They only have as much power as some confused AAs give them, and those AAs stand to lose bigtime if they go to war in defense of DBDC, while DBDC can do very little to help any alliance.

 

You're partially right.  DH actually was the dominant military power then. At that point in the game, the concentration of upper tier nations between MK and UMB still had viable opposition.  This meant that the threat of losing those nations in the upper range and having your middle tier exposed to down declares was very real. That of course changed in EQ with the embarrassing demolition of AI sphere's upper tier and resulted in the massive differences in NS ranges were seeing.  I will agree with you on one thing though DBDC is the heir, but we've got our own paradigm.

 

I would argue there is effectively now two Cyber Nations in this realm: The one played by 10,532 people (CN1) and another one played by 250 others (CN2).  Sure there's a bit of overlap, where say TOP has 3 nations in the top 250 and are thus vulnerable to attack by DBDC, but the bulk of TOP is below that range and has to contend the run-of-the-mill politics of CN1 with everyone else.

 

I don't see the politics of CN2 as being tenable long term, so either members of DBDC will need to lobby Admin for more rules changes or be content to sit on their arse, picking off the occasional stray in CN2 and living vicariously through others.  Given that so many of them joined DBDC because they were bored with their present circumstances, I doubt we'll see many of them around in a year, but they might surprise me.  Cuba appears pretty much to be on track to reach a million NS and no one can stop him at this point short of himself or Admin.

 

Preparation H might help with the soreness

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I fail to see DBDC as a problem to be honest. This talk in the OP about the game being stagnant and implying it is in some way due to DBDC has me stumped. Sure there is a flaw in the game mechanics that means if your warchest is big enough there is no real consequence for war, but that applies to thousands of nations.

I know DBDC have had zero influence on what treaties we hold past or present and suspect for 99% of planet Bob the same applies.

Maybe a better approach would be to think outside the box and applaud others who do as well. This world is what we make it.

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